Can we stop A700 bashing?

deeyay said:

You and I have pretty different views on things. Let's just agree on
that we disagree because this will take us nowhere =)
--
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• http://danieljansson.se

Web portfolio

• http://danieljansson.com

Click to expand...

Deeyay, I love your landscapes. Thank you for posting. I think it does not do your argument any good though. 5D image is worse in my book.

I think it is very qualitative. IMO Canon has way too much NR. I remember now why i sold my Canon 5D.
I can't stand the NR done on Canon 5D even on lower ISO. Too much detail loss.

I guess it is whatever impresses one the most.

Cheers,

N

Challenge? Sounding more like Sonolta everyday...heheh.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/quietrvr/

Barry Fitzgerald said:

I admit there are many areas that I dont like about Canon, but I have
to say..I much prefer their high ISO images.

Click to expand...

Then put your money with your opinion and go buy one and go tell the Canon boards what they need to change to make thier cameras perfect.

You may have not noticed, but many of us are learning that other than pixel peepling, the Sony NR pattern turns out nice images that print very nicely and scale wonderfull for online use.

As the number of positive reviews mount one things clear this has nothing with Barry having a "higher standard" as you claimed earlier this week. It has to do with Barry beating us over the head with his personal preferance...

I have seen your post last week with grain, and this threads CN 5D with grain.. guess what.. there are lots of us that really prefer what Sony has done. This is key.. even if Sony added a NO NR option for high ISO, based on what I have seen of the d300 etc. It will not be grain like noise.

Unless you are ready to start posting complaints about the KM 5D IQ it is time to choose and move on.. because the A700 beats it.. so anything you moan about in practical use, not hypothetical feature needs, is only going to be same or worse on the KM 5D, and lord knows I have much appreaciation for the camera.. but now find the UI akward and no IQ benefits to the limits it puts on shooting.
------------
Ken - KM 5D (A700 Joy)
http://www.cascadephotoworks.com

Ken_5D said:

Then put your money with your opinion and go buy one and go tell the
Canon boards what they need to change to make thier cameras perfect.

Click to expand...

Does Canon take A mount lenses?

Ken_5D said:

You may have not noticed, but many of us are learning that other than
pixel peepling, the Sony NR pattern turns out nice images that print
very nicely and scale wonderfull for online use.

Click to expand...

Hmmm

Ken_5D said:

As the number of positive reviews mount one things clear this has
nothing with Barry having a "higher standard" as you claimed earlier
this week. It has to do with Barry beating us over the head with his
personal preferance...

Click to expand...

I think you are getting carried away

Ken_5D said:

I have seen your post last week with grain, and this threads CN 5D
with grain.. guess what.. there are lots of us that really prefer
what Sony has done. This is key.. even if Sony added a NO NR option
for high ISO, based on what I have seen of the d300 etc. It will not
be grain like noise.

Unless you are ready to start posting complaints about the KM 5D IQ
it is time to choose and move on.. because the A700 beats it.. so
anything you moan about in practical use, not hypothetical feature
needs, is only going to be same or worse on the KM 5D, and lord knows
I have much appreaciation for the camera.. but now find the UI akward
and no IQ benefits to the limits it puts on shooting.
------------

Click to expand...

Ken I will repeat this for you in plain english.

Its not YOUR forum, you dont own it, nor are you the forum police. Please stop trying to take that role on.

I wish you would stop this absurd A700 beats 5D nonsense also. You are turning into a blind fanboy. Having read some of the joke posts by A700 owners, in dyxum too. Oh A700 ISO 1600 is better than KM ISO 400..! Ok right!! lol

Dont tell me what I can, or cannot post. Do you understand that?

You have a view, fine..so do I.

--



Clint is on holiday! Soon to return! ;-)

lots of silliness here...I am starting to come here for the pure entertainment value.
--
Capturing memories
Bill
USA



Please visit my Gallery at:
http://evil-twin.smugmug.com/

Barry,

I welcome and still value your opinions, but as more and more reviews and gorgeous LOW light photos are showing up, your argument about NR on RAW gets weaker and weaker...

Why/How am I making this claim?

1. Yes, A700 does NOT have an NR OFF option.
2. Yes, the RAW files are processed "cooked"

3. ALL CMOS based digital camers must process their RAW files, based on readings of multiple sources, don't make me quote them now...
4. Each camera processes their respective RAW files differently
5. Some people find the RAW files, as rendered by SONY pleasing
6. Some people don't (You, in particular) and a few others

You have seen some INCREDIBLE HIGH ISO, LOW Light shots, with skin tones and they are excellent, you stated that their OK, that's FINE. It's your opinion. Others (MAJORITY) of existing and NEW forum (1st time members/lurkers) who have ALSO seen the new images are amazed and apparently HAPPY, including a very well known and VOCAL A700 skeptic, who turned A700 evangelistic.

I choose NOT judge the camera on it's TECHNIQUE but simply by it's IQ and so far with more experience and new workflow discoveries and excellent reviews, the A700 is a WINNER, in the eyes of professional reviewers, A700 owners, skeptics turned evangelist, people who have been waiting on the sidelines for the reviews...

If the IMAGES that the A700 aren't enough to stir you and you are just so hung up on the fact that there is no UNTOUCHED RAW file, then so BE it. You cannot be convinced that the A700 is good enough for you.

End of story.

Don't buy the A700. There is nothing more to say is there? The majority of the users here have told you that the IQ is adequate, and remarkable and are willing to accept the fact the RAW images are processed.

Here is a perfect REAL world example, MP3, compressed AUDIO technology, very VERY good, but NOT perfect, to the AUDIOPHILE with the $10,000.00 turntable with MC/MM phono cartridge and $100,000.00 speaker system. But the MP3 players are still selling and you can talk till your blue in the face and try to convince the MASSES that it's NOT good enough, yet the sales of MP3 players defy the AUDIOPHILE and are pushing the continued sales of MP3 players and Apple ITunes...

To the AUDIOPHILE, he will NEVER get the Apple IPod and will continue to cherish his LP's exclaiming the audio virtues of the SOUND and WARMTH of the music that a VINYL LP can produced when compared to a COLD digital reproduction of the same ALBUM on MP3 or (Audio CD).

Bottomline is the MAJORITY of the forum members here have accepted the A700 as is, blemishes and all, and most of us are choosing to OVERLOOK the blemiishes (to some MINOR), for all of the other features and AMAZING images that it can produce. The reason for the backlash from the community is because you keep posting that the SKY is falling and that the A700 is no good! We ALL should see the problem and fight this, well I hate to break it to you, you can bring the horse to the water, but you still can't make him drink it.

Obviously the A700 is not for you:

1. On board RAW processing CANNOT be disabled
2. Pricing in the UK is way too high

The way I see it, you have but two choices at this point. Sell all of your A-MOUNT equipment and buy NIKON, CANON, Panasonic, Olympus, Pentax or another brand of digital camera, as this will not satisfy you.

or

You may wait a few more months and see what SONY has in store for the future of the A-mount with the release of the PRO body in April 2008.

If you continue to post (we cannot stop you, as this is a public forum), about your distste and dislike of the heavy handidness of NR being applied to A700 by SONY, you will only serve to INCITE the members here on this forum (MAJORITY) who accept the A700 as is into a shouting match, which will ABSOLUTELY serve no purpose at all, IMHO...

Ultimately the choice is yours...

-Alex
--

-Alex

From the minds of Minolta to the imagination of Sony, Alpha, like no other.

http://www.pbase.com/lonewolf69

Bill,

I have read most of your posts here on this thread and on the KM dSLR forum and you have NOTHING but contempt for the SONY users and it's forum members.

"lots of silliness here...I am starting to come here for the pure entertainment value."

I'm glad that you consider the threads and posts, (the thoughts, comments, and passion) of the SONY dSLR users (existing and potential) as a form of amusement. Glad to be of service! I on the other hand choose my form of entertainment by going to the movies, enjoying my time with my wife and kids, and of course taking photographs! If you can call it that some of my pictures have been horrendous! LOL!

I still somehow find it just a bit disturbing that you take pleasure/enjoyment at our heated debates.

I would think that instead of enjoying it, you would be ashamed of it and would somehow try to be more involved and put a stop to it. Because like it or not, the future of the A-MOUNT is now in the hands of SONY and it's user base. Any fighting that we do on this forum serves to scare away any potential new A-mount users. I would think that you and other members of the KM dSLR forum, would want to foster a more positive outlook for the A-mount familty in order to build up more support for the A-Mount system.

Unless your goal is to get rid of your existing a-mount equipment and are ready to start anew on the Canikon system instead?

Keep in mind while some of the users here are just now getting into the AMOUNT system and MAY not have the experience of the SENIOR KM dSLR users, there are MANY here who are EXPERIENCED KM users, Papasha, Aarif, and others. Your comments serves no other purpose other than to insult the SONY a-mount community as if we're a bunch of 2nd class citizens to the A-MOUNT systems and that just isn't right...

-Alex

From the minds of Minolta to the imagination of Sony, Alpha, like no other.

http://www.pbase.com/lonewolf69

---

Unfortunately, just when I thought Barry was getting enlightened and starting to recognize his stubborness ( is there such a word? ), he came back in this thread with all his old well known not-so-smart comments! I hope it was just a brain glitch and he will quickly recover his senses... Maybe after he finds an A700 to try a whole week end?
One can always hope...

Lucas
--
You're welcome to: http://www.pbase.com/lucaspix/root

Always having fun with photography ...

deeyay said:

You and I have pretty different views on things. Let's just agree on
that we disagree because this will take us nowhere =)
--
Picture agency

• http://danieljansson.se

Web portfolio

• http://danieljansson.com

Click to expand...

Is that YOU Sinolta?
--
Glassman

Barry Fitzgerald said:

Techno talk is fine, but its real world results that matter.

--



Clint is on holiday! Soon to return! ;-)

Click to expand...

Here are your REAL results, what's NOT to like? You're beating a dead horse at this point. The A700 can and does produce low light, HIGH ISO, flesh tone images with good detail. I don't see anything wrong with these shots and the MANY other photos that have been posted so far, but yet you keep picking and picking and attacking the camera as if there is no tomorrow...?!?? Even Don, Sonolta, stopped and picked up the A700 once he started seeing the GORGEOUS images from Papasha, Aarif, Moire, Gil and others, yet you're still not satisfied...

http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22435&PN=1
(C'mon Barry, you've gotta admit the cheerleader shot IS stunning!!!)

Short of SONY handing you a free A700, I really don't think there is any other way to convince you that the A700 is a very VERY capable camera, and at this point ALL other arguments just fall flat. There really isn't anything to discuss with you anymore, UNLESS Ken still wishes to post his KM5D vs. A700 images that is... Honestly, I don't know what else is needed. You asked for and got your A700 LOW LIGHT/HIGH ISO shots...!???

I supremely FEEL that with ALL of the evidence presented to you here within the PAST week, DRO advantage, HIGH ISO/LOW LIGHT, excellent BIF shots. You have no leg to stand on to continue with your criticism of the A700, the IQ is there! You need to try out the camera in person now before you can continue to bad mouth it...

Perhaps Dave K. can loan you one of his A700 to try out if you cannot locate one locally or are you past the point of the A-MOUNT system now and wish to switch over to Canon?

--
-Alex

From the minds of Minolta to the imagination of Sony, Alpha, like no other.

http://www.pbase.com/lonewolf69

I get a sense you base a camera on ISO performance.

You need to remember that for a lot of people, high ISO performance simple isn't something they care about at all in a camera. But image quality is. They want to see nice crisp/sharp photos with proper color, good dynamic range, etc.

If getting High ISO performance took away from the sharpness of the camera. That was a bad deal for a lot of folk.

Photo,

Barry has repeatedly replied to me it's a two issue IQ problem with the A700:

1. HIGH ISO/LOW noise, which I THINK (IMHO) has been well proven to him as his previous replies were, it's OK, NOT bad. Notice no bashing there...?

2. NR on RAW files - He wishes to see a switch or software control on the A700 that has the equivalent of NR OFF...

--
-Alex

From the minds of Minolta to the imagination of Sony, Alpha, like no other.

http://www.pbase.com/lonewolf69

lonewolf69 said:

Photo,

Barry has repeatedly replied to me it's a two issue IQ problem with
the A700:

1. HIGH ISO/LOW noise, which I THINK (IMHO) has been well proven to
him as his previous replies were, it's OK, NOT bad. Notice no
bashing there...?

Click to expand...

Until the RAW folks, including Barry, acknowledge that RAW converters are a huge part of this picture in their messing up it seems there is little to talk about. Raw converters need serious examination and testing. They are not neutral in this.

Meanwhile, everyone else is getting better and better photos all the time. Those folks are the experts on the camera, not Barry.

lonewolf69 said:

2. NR on RAW files - He wishes to see a switch or software control on
the A700 that has the equivalent of NR OFF...

Click to expand...

For What?

What if anything has that to do with getting good photos out of the camera? Nothing, it seems, as people are getting good photos out of the camera. So, this is clearly not to get good images out of the camera.

Is it unique to Sony? No, all CMOS sensor DSLR's have NR on Raw files. So, what Barry is saying is that all CMOS DSLR's are so bad nobody should buy them. They don't have off switches that turn off all noise reduction either. If it's a huge wrong for Sony to do it, it's a huge wrong for every other brand that has no off switch on all it's noise reduction. Apparently because the lowest Raw person believes that they are more expert than the experts that design these things.

Barry is not the ultimate authority on IQ in any case and is showing himself less and less of a expert every day he continues this. And he's contributing nothing, just repeats of exactly the same no use statements of a month ago. I used to respect Barry, not really anymore. We know exactly what he is going to say. So, why listen. Right now he's just in the way of learning to use the camera. And that's what we really want to do! Isn't it?

Walt

lonewolf69 said:

Barry Fitzgerald wrote:

Click to expand...

lonewolf69 said:

Here are your REAL results, what's NOT to like? You're beating a
dead horse at this point. The A700 can and does produce low light,
HIGH ISO, flesh tone images with good detail. I don't see anything
wrong with these shots and the MANY other photos that have been
posted so far, but yet you keep picking and picking and attacking the
camera as if there is no tomorrow...?!?? Even Don, Sonolta, stopped
and picked up the A700 once he started seeing the GORGEOUS images
from Papasha, Aarif, Moire, Gil and others, yet you're still not
satisfied...

Click to expand...

Nope..sorry no NR on RAW is a requirement for me. I have never said the camera is junk or crappy, remember that though.

lonewolf69 said:

http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22435&PN=1
(C'mon Barry, you've gotta admit the cheerleader shot IS stunning!!!)

Click to expand...

All taken at the equivalent of ISO 2000 (as DK noted exp compensation and pp comp too)..sure they are pretty good.

lonewolf69 said:

Short of SONY handing you a free A700, I really don't think there is
any other way to convince you that the A700 is a very VERY capable
camera, and at this point ALL other arguments just fall flat.

Click to expand...

I am afraid I take a dim view of NR on RAW, that is my entire problem with the camera..pretty much it. I didnt say you cant get decent results. I just say that its not acceptable to have NR done for you, esp on RAW.

There

lonewolf69 said:

really isn't anything to discuss with you anymore, UNLESS Ken still
wishes to post his KM5D vs. A700 images that is... Honestly, I don't
know what else is needed. You asked for and got your A700 LOW
LIGHT/HIGH ISO shots...!???

Click to expand...

What is needed is for sony to give users a choice

lonewolf69 said:

I supremely FEEL that with ALL of the evidence presented to you here
within the PAST week, DRO advantage, HIGH ISO/LOW LIGHT, excellent
BIF shots. You have no leg to stand on to continue with your
criticism of the A700, the IQ is there! You need to try out the
camera in person now before you can continue to bad mouth it...

Click to expand...

I remain firm on my position. NR RAW is not acceptable, on any SLR.

If you bother to look, the owner of dyxum is calling for people to raise the issue..so sony do something. So, dont make me out as some kinda lone nut gunman please!

lonewolf69 said:

Perhaps Dave K. can loan you one of his A700 to try out if you cannot
locate one locally or are you past the point of the A-MOUNT system
now and wish to switch over to Canon?

Click to expand...

I have not decided what direction to take, if sony correct the issue, I would have no problems getting the A700..or if the next camera is better in this regard.

--



Clint is on holiday! Soon to return! ;-)

I have no idea what you are talking about with Barry.

Don't assume everyone follows what everyone is talking about. I have no idea what has been discussed with Barry.

by not listening to what more knowledgeable people say. That is not something to be proud of.

Member said:

Nope..sorry no NR on RAW is a requirement for me.

Click to expand...

Why are you repeating this all the time? Don't you understand it is totally silly, as ALL RAW has NR, particularly RAW from CMOS? It is your good right to be against CMOS sensors, but then you have to rephrase your criticisms and include Canon and Nikon in your crusade. Maybe Nikon and Canon do a better job in high ISO NR, but the issue is NOT NR on RAW, as this is done by all.

I have never said

Member said:

the camera is junk or crappy, remember that though.

Click to expand...

What I do remember is that you were talking about the Noise Ninja camera. That comes pretty close to what you deny here. I am sure you are going to repeat your mantra of "no NR on RAW", but since this is a strictly meaningless statement, it will give you a lot of attention at the cost of not being taken seriously anymore. I am sure you are able to make more intelligent choices!
--Jan

Jan, good saying, Barry thinks he's the smart one while actually he is looking for foolsgold.

I think there is now way to get his stubborn mind changed.

Live could be easier if he accepted the change in technics.

He should get a job at sony's cmos engineering division and follow seminars on NR, maybe this would help.

Groeten uit Kerkrade. Greetings from Kerkrade.

Math.

Thanks, Math. And the sad thing is that he does not realize what a wonderful camera the A700 is! Your DPreview profile, by the way, has an error in the web page address (ending in "hom" instead of "home").
Greetings from Groningen, --Jan

See my pictures at:
http://www.pbase.com/koster10/

mschlosser said:

Jan, good saying, Barry thinks he's the smart one while actually he
is looking for foolsgold.

I think there is now way to get his stubborn mind changed.

Live could be easier if he accepted the change in technics.

He should get a job at sony's cmos engineering division and follow
seminars on NR, maybe this would help.

Groeten uit Kerkrade. Greetings from Kerkrade.

Math.

Click to expand...

--
Picture agency

• http://danieljansson.se

Web portfolio

• http://danieljansson.com

Thank you Jan, didn't know that.

Tried to change it just now but the line seems just to short. Copy and paste of the webadress leaves the last e out.
I put it under my gearlist.
.
Have alot of pictures, just started with this free website. Still learning.
Sometimes I add one.

Math.