D3 and D300 AF modues ARE the same

I'll apologize to bill. maybe the both of us can build a fort some day. Call it dave and bills fort. or fort billdave......hang pictures of the d3 and d300 on the walls, and who cares which one focuses faster. we wont care. we'll be too busy looking at girlie magazines and eating brownies....yup. My new bestest friend Bill : )))

knickerhawk said:

dave veneri said:

I agree totally....and get this. since I have no idea why one was
faster than the other the rep probally spoke out of his a$$ but i had
caught him off guard when i handed the camera to him and put him on
the spot.....but again, just so I can sleep...lol There were more
than a few people who posted here that saw the same thing....Im the
one though who has been more vocal about it.....

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The forum is kind of a snakepit these days with all of the
speculation, guessing, and parsing of minimal, partial and anecdotal
information. It doesn't make it right that you've been shoved
around, but perhaps you can understand why there's a fair amount of
skepticism and attempt to take the high road by not responding
in-kind to some of the name-calling. I think you'll reinforce your
credibility more by not getting into the name-calling (as difficult
as that might be!).

--
My photos: http://www.pbase.com/imageiseverything/root

Click to expand...

dave veneri said:

I only respond like that when a sarcastic attitude is throw my
way.....By the way 2 more people spotted the same thing....read some
of the latest posts in here.....seems that nikonman in osaka had
mentioned something similar.

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I have read all of the posts, Dave. Most are BS, 2nd hand, he said, she said comments from people that are unknown. Greg and Phil, (tomoo) among others are respected and credible members here and have posted first hand comments that contradict your claims and the claims of the anonymous others.

dave veneri said:

I know we all have to wait but it ticks
me off when people are making it sound like its only me that saw this!

Click to expand...

I understand that, but you can't explain why you saw what you claim, which you must admit, goes against the official nikon specs. I couldn't care less what some person manning the booth says, especially since he didn't even know that the sensor wasn't the AF module.

You're going to continue to get snide remarks, if you continue to post stuff that isn't substantiated and doesn't jive with nikon's claims. My advice is to let it go until the cameras are in user's hands and can be tested properly. Then, if you are proven correct, you can say you told us so.

--
my gallery of so-so photos
http://www.pbase.com/kerrypierce/root

Short recapitulation:

A number of individuals, some of them full time professionals and/or long time forum members, report that the D300 focuses noticeably slower than the D3. One of them sais the D300 is only marginally faster than the D200, another one sais the D300 is a bit slower than the Canon 40D.

None of this made sense to me. Why would Nikon make a camera with pro grade build quality that can do 12 MP at 8 fps – and not include pro grade AF? But I had to believe the posters because at the time there were no contradicting reports from people who had actually held the cameras in their hands.

Then what happens?

A number of individuals, some of them full time professionals and/or long time forum members, report that the D300 focuses just as fast as the D3, noticeably faster than the D2 and much faster than the D200.

I wonder if I should stop reading this forum.

Regards
Lasse

PS. Thanks Greg, Bill and Phillip. I'm on your side now.

Ok Im done.....and now this has become something I had not intended it to be. I do know what I saw at that show and I will more than stand by my observations. But know this, if I am wrong I will be the happiest camper of all since I didnt like what I found to be what was billed as the same or described the same multicam 3500 in both cameras dx or

fx and finding the d3 clearly faster that 2 of the sample d300's. So enough back and forth for me. Either im justified at some point in time that my observations were correct, or Im thrilled to death that it was a firmware or other anomaly that caused the difference. Im truly hoping im wrong more than anyone, I just dont think I am......

Does all this even matter since one camera is several times more expensive than the other & it is expected to have better specs?

M Lammerse said:

I haven't seen it either being mentioned by official Nikon statement
(on paper!)
However when I askd the question if the focus system is the same of
the D3 and D300, I got the answer that the D3 is faster in focussing,
despite using the same modules.

Click to expand...

Interesting!

M Lammerse said:

I'm not sure if it is a good comparison, but maybe you can compare it
a bit with computer/graphic chips. There are lots of chips similar,
but delivering totally diffrent results by small modifications of the
chip and what is done with the information produced with the chip.

Click to expand...

Yes, that's possible.

As we have conflicting, no, it's really contrary reports from people who compared the D3 and D300 in that regard we have to see what comes out in the end, we'll know in a month (or so).

As I said earlier in other threads I do not think it would be unreasonable if the D300's AF would be a bit slower than that of the D3, considering the huge price difference of both cameras.

edit - corrected two typos

dave veneri said:

I only respond like that when a sarcastic attitude is throw my
way.....By the way 2 more people spotted the same thing....read some
of the latest posts in here.....seems that nikonman in osaka had
mentioned something similar. I know we all have to wait but it ticks
me off when people are making it sound like its only me that saw this!

Click to expand...

Dude... why so worried about it? Is what somebody else thinks, actually 3 or 4 other people who actually used the camera for a couple days and have a different opinion than you, keeping you up at night?

Just relax, quit egging it on and this mess will go away... FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, PLEASE RELAX! LOL ;-)
--

http://beaulong.exposuremanager.com

and it's implication, quite obnoxious. I have made zero personal attack on you, simply noted that I can find at least 4 other people to counter what you say, including the commentary from Philipp to which I was replying. Also note the pair of "Smiley Faces", and even the note that my comment was sarcastic.

You have your opinion, I don't know you from Adam, but I do know, personally as well as via the Net, at least 4 people who have had experiences different than yours.

So, I guess that, by your logic, if Phil (Askey this time) not Philipp has the D300/D3 for more than 3 hours and comes to a differenct conclusion than you do, you will reject that as well? I guess we all have our "heroes" don't we? Yes, that is a JOKE son, just a silly joike.

I also don't know the other people who saw the same thing you did. Can you please post there Bona-Fides for us all, so we can compare to those of others who have had different experiences?

I'll ignore the rest of the "personal" comments, such as my being dense, just in case your comment later in the thread is directed to me. And should we meet in Fort BillDave (just being Alphabetical about the naming), I'll buy the first round ...

dave veneri said:

Bill Dewey said:

Thanks for chiming in Philip. For some strange reason it is the
experience of folks like yourself, who have actually had the
opportunity for real world use, that I put more stock in.

What is very encouraging to me as well, but not surprising after the
D200 situation, is that Nikon kept things correct for the Sigma
lenses.

tomoo1000 said:

While the couple of days I had both cameras I couldn't see any
difference in focus speed with AFS/AFI/HSM lenses the HSM lens was
particularly important for me as I use the sigma f5.6 800 prime a lot
the d300 seemed both faster and more accurate than my d2x d200 D1x
and a few other Nikon digital bodies I have.

Phillip.

Ps from what I was told both be focusing modules are exactly the same
the only difference is the housing that they are fitted into one
housing for the 35mm sensor one housing for the cropped sensor.

--
NPS Member

One's life is not measured by the two dates upon your tombstone, but
how you lived the dash in between them

Click to expand...

--
Bill Dewey
http://www.deweydrive.com

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
Bill Dewey
http://www.deweydrive.com

say that the D3 and D300 share the same AF module. Nikon has made a big point to say so. So in some weird way Nikon's reputation is being impugned because of some posts that say the D300 is obviously inferior in AF speed to the D3.

I think we'll just have to wait for official tests.

Eclipse Optics said:

Does all this even matter since one camera is several times more
expensive than the other & it is expected to have better specs?

Click to expand...

--
Mike Dawson

dave veneri said:

Greg, its not the same AF module. one is a dx the other multicam 3500
fx. I too have been around the block for 30 years doing this and im
no newbie either. 4 other people saw it too including the nikon rep
who I handed the camera to. I was there for 3 hours with 9 different
lenses and trust me the d300 was slower than the d3 period. It was a
little faster than the d200 IMO and I do have one on order. But
AGAIN it was 4 people who saw this including my wife who makes her
living doing resoution work reading sat. images. She cant cook, but
she can see great......

Click to expand...

I have to ask, what exactly were you testing the AF on for 3 hours with 9 different lenses at photoplus? I was there too, and I didn't see any barn swallows, common terns, acrobats, or pro athletes running or flying around. In fact, I didn't see anything that would give the moving subject tracking a real test. Unless I've got everything wrong, that's really the main point/advantage of having such a complex AF system, with that many cross type points, and the whole subject recognition tracking thing working with the metering sensor. What were you shooting for 3 hours that really put these cameras to the test?

I tried both bodies as well, the D3's viewfinder is much bigger, making each individual AF point much smaller as far as the amount of viewfinder space it covers. I can see this allowing for even more precise focusing with the D3, since you can put an AF point over a smaller area. So that would be an advantage in some types of photography. In my time playing with them, both cameras locked nearly instantly on anything I pointed them at. The D3 was more fun to use because of the nicer viewfinder.

Another point, on the specific D300 I was trying, the top LCD didn't indicate which focus point was selected as I changed them, it just always showed the center as selected. Do you know why? The reason is it didn't have final production firmware! Just as none of the other D3 or D300 cameras at the show had it either.

So in recap, your conclusions about these two cameras are based on using pre-production bodies for a total of 3 hours, indoors, with a mix of weak sunlight and artificial light, basically on static subjects. I didn't see anything at the expo moving fast enough to even require autofocus. Maybe you should have spent some time listening to Mike Corrado's lecture instead, he's been using the cameras for months in all sorts of real world situations and didn't seem to think the autofocus was a point of difference. He did talk about which features he preferred in each body for which reasons after the lecture too. I just don't see how you could even accurately test the autofocus of these cameras in relation to the kind of shooting I do at the expo, no matter how many hours and lenses you had.

Dave,

I'm sure there will be different impressions about focus speed from different individuals looking perceiving different things with different cameras and talking with different reps of varying knowledge. I too was interested in M. Lammerse's comments.

I was at Photoplus Thursday morning and handled both the D3 and the D300 for just a few moments but maybe 15 minutes apart. I had no means to do any side by side comparison. First camera in hand was the D3 and I simply pointed at various targets while standing in the three deep crowd at the Nikon table ( I understand there were multiple locations however where things weren't so busy). 15 minutes later when handling the D300 I began looking for speed at which it would lock onto a new target as I slid from one figure in the crowd to another ...as I would in finding a new player in a scrimmage. I looked for the blink of the sensor rather than sound or the lens drive or image coming into focus as indicator of how fast the camera was acquiring focus.

Did you do something similar? What was your routine for assessing focus speed? (Sorry if I missed that in the avalanche of posts.) Am I correct in thinking that the blink is unrelated to the response of the drive and lens?

Anyways, my subjective view was that the D300 was pretty quick and uniformly decisive but not lightning quick with the no-so-well lit subjects at 50 feet. I think my D70 might have stutter stepped under similar situations but I'm usually experiencing those problems with a longer lens. Didn't do the same thing when handling the D3 and thus can't say whether the D3's version of cam3500 does any better.

I'll continue to watch these threads for both fact and fiction (speculation). Shame that people are intolerant of conflicting views or observations, and that they have a need to resolve the differences by discounting the contrarian input.

Marabou Muddler
http://mmuddler.smugmug.com/

I can't doubt that the OP saw and felt what he did (who can?), but I agree with your summary. These events are good for getting a tactile impression of the new machine, talk to reps, take in the lectures, etc., but they are definitely not good for fine discrimination of camera performance or image quality. People form impressions, and then report in a hurry knowing that many others are hungry for any news. Where the issue is a big point of contention, what we most often get out of this is a lot of grief and little clarity. Anyone remember Michael Reichmann's noise tests on the D2X from PMA? Even though his general drift wasn't unreasonable, he made a mess of tagging the images with the right ISO values, etc., when he published them on luminous landscape. What an unnecessary loss of respect and credibility, simply due to being in a hurry to form and disseminate judgement.

Personally, I am at the front of the D300 list and will take delivery as soon as I am offered a camera, regardless of the variance in early impressions. Of course, I will be disappointed if thorough lab tests released before my delivery show the camera to be underwhelming, but that's the risk of early adoption. I will only despair if I take my D300 to shoot Whooper swans in dawn flight and fail to notice significant improvement over my D200.

However, I will expect Nikon to deliver the same AF capability in both cameras because that is what they have clearly and repeatedly led us to believe. If there are tiny differences between the two cameras because the same AF sensors cover subjects differently (due to FOV and framing differences) at given focal lengths, I will not be much bothered.

--
Suvo Mitra
http://suvomitra.smugmug.com

BJN said:

While it's possible that Nikon put a stronger screwdriver motor in
the D3, I've yet to see anybody report facts that document such a
difference.

Click to expand...

It is true of the F100/F80, D100/D1, D200/D40/ and D2x/D200.
If history repeats itself it will be true of D3/D300.
--
Leonard Shepherd

Whilst the camera and lens can be important the photographers skill and imagination are much more important in achieving good pictures.

Juergen said:

Leonard Shepherd said:

Nikon have said since the launch the modules are identical. This
includes physical size.

Click to expand...

Where exactly have they?

Click to expand...

Try here http://www.europe-nikon.com/product/en_GB/products/broad/1436/overview.html

The D3 is likely to have faster internal processing leading to faster AF on the D3.

--
Leonard Shepherd

Whilst the camera and lens can be important the photographers skill and imagination are much more important in achieving good pictures.

mcullenphoto said:

I have to ask, what exactly were you testing the AF on for 3 hours
with 9 different lenses at photoplus? I was there too, and I didn't
see any barn swallows, common terns, acrobats, or pro athletes
running or flying around. In fact, I didn't see anything that would
give the moving subject tracking a real test.

Click to expand...

...there will be D3s, D300s and Olympic track cyclists flying round the velodrome for you to test the AF on. The only problem is that it's barely a week before the camera goes on sale, so it'll be far too late to get one...

--
Guy

My 'work' photos are at http://swarbrick.com/photos
The 'fun' stuff is at http://www.flickr.com/photos/swarbrick

Equipment in profile

"The D300 defines a new class of compact professional SLR, incorporating groundbreaking technologies and performance of the D3 into a compact DX format body."

Now that's from Nikon UK & Ireland. Suspect same remarks have been made elsewhere.

With that statement in mind and the FX and Dx modules carrying the same name, I would expect the performance of the D3 with respect to AF would be incorporated in the D300 without diminution (crippling).

We'll have to see once the production models are available.

--
Marabou Muddler
http://mmuddler.smugmug.com/

I like it, and I sure wouldn't want MY foot to hurt.

Good point, nice quote. I don't think anyone would be horribly surprised by some slight differences, but I agree with you regarding what is implied by the statement you quote.

MMuddler said:

"The D300 defines a new class of compact professional SLR,
incorporating groundbreaking technologies and performance of the D3
into a compact DX format body."

Now that's from Nikon UK & Ireland. Suspect same remarks have been
made elsewhere.

With that statement in mind and the FX and Dx modules carrying the
same name, I would expect the performance of the D3 with respect to
AF would be incorporated in the D300 without diminution (crippling).

We'll have to see once the production models are available.

--
Marabou Muddler
http://mmuddler.smugmug.com/

Click to expand...

--
Bill Dewey
http://www.deweydrive.com

I'm as guilty as anyone else here but these long discussions start to make me dizzy. Just get out and shoot and enjoy photography with the gear you have!

--
'Procrastinate now, don't put it off.'

Leonard Shepherd said:

Leonard Shepherd said:

Leonard Shepherd said:

Nikon have said since the launch the modules are identical. This
includes physical size.

Click to expand...

Where exactly have they?

Click to expand...

http://www.europe-nikon.com/product/en_GB/products/broad/1436/overview.html
The D3 is likely to have faster internal processing leading to faster
AF on the D3.

Click to expand...

I can read for the D300 at
http://www.europe-nikon.com/product/en_GB/products/broad/1436/overview.html

"Multi-CAM3500DX 51-point AF system . Individually selectable or configurable in 9-point, 21-point and 51-point coverage settings."
and for the D3 at
http://www.europe-nikon.com/product/en_GB/products/broad/1435/overview.html

"Multi-CAM3500FX 51-point AF system . Individually selectable or configurable in 9-point, 21-point and 51-point coverage settings.

Besides the fact that both AF systems have a "3500" in their name plus both have 51 AF-points which can be configured in the same way, I can not see Nikon claims both modules to be identical, just the opposite, both have different names, one called "Multi-CAM3500FX" and the other "Multi-CAM3500DX".

"The D300 defines a new class of compact professional SLR, incorporating groundbreaking technologies and performance of the D3 into a compact DX format body." .... Nikon UK & Ireland

We will wait and see.

--
Marabou Muddler
http://mmuddler.smugmug.com/