Is "Full Frame" That Big of a Deal After All?

Jerry Brendle

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After reading numerous posts and viewing many image comparison images concerning the merits of full frame vs. "crop" sensors such as the 40D's, I'm coming to question the importance of going "full frame". Being somewhat old school myself, I've always thought I really hadn't "arrived" completely in digital imaging until I got a true 24 X 36 mm sensor camera. My biggest reason for not doing so was the obvious: cost.

I see from the forum here though, that a lot of folks still feel that they've got to eventually evolve into FF and they are just waiting for the prices for these cameras to get down to roughly what you'd pay for a 40D now. Is it really worth the wait and expense when cameras like the 40D can deliver awesome images, managable file sizes, less weight and bulk and the choice of either standard and EF-S lenses now? Now that Canon has incredible lenses like the new 10-22 EF-S, wide angle photography is no longer a pain in the butt. I'm really starting to wonder if FF is the "pie in the sky" ultimate digital camera I once thought it was or not?
 
For me the crop is my first preference. I really like the reach and with the quality of images now approaching its zenith, the 40D is the best camera giving the best images for widest scope of shots with the lenses available (for a reasonable price and weight).

If I get to the stage (skill-wise) where I think that a larger sensor might improve some shots (eg landscapes) I will consider another body. But the 40D will be my main body for many years to come, I hope.

I couldn't even take some photos I've got if I only had a 5D. But I believe I can take all the shots with a 40D that I could have got with a 5D. Some might argue that I might have slightly improved IQ on some shots with a 5D, but they'd have to really pixel peep. I don't print large enough that most would notice any difference at all.

For those who only take wide and close shots, and don't need high fps, a 5D is a good affordable solution (compared to the more expensive cameras).
 
For me the crop is my first preference. I really like the reach and
with the quality of images now approaching its zenith, the 40D is the
best camera giving the best images for widest scope of shots with the
lenses available (for a reasonable price and weight).
People keep talking about the "reach" of crop cameras. This is an illusion. You are simply getting a crop of the image that you'd get with the same lens on FF, and that crop is just being stretched to make it "look" like a longer zoom. You can get the same "reach" with FF if you simply crop the image in PP and stretch it the same amount. You just get so much more picture with FF (not to mention the viewfinder image size). I agree with your conclusion about the 40D, though. It has the best IQ available for under $1700 and the best selection of lenses.

-Tacksharp
 
if you want ultimate quality then you get a MF sized sensor
After reading numerous posts and viewing many image comparison images
concerning the merits of full frame vs. "crop" sensors such as the
40D's, I'm coming to question the importance of going "full frame".
Being somewhat old school myself, I've always thought I really hadn't
"arrived" completely in digital imaging until I got a true 24 X 36 mm
sensor camera. My biggest reason for not doing so was the obvious:
cost.
I see from the forum here though, that a lot of folks still feel that
they've got to eventually evolve into FF and they are just waiting
for the prices for these cameras to get down to roughly what you'd
pay for a 40D now. Is it really worth the wait and expense when
cameras like the 40D can deliver awesome images, managable file
sizes, less weight and bulk and the choice of either standard and
EF-S lenses now? Now that Canon has incredible lenses like the new
10-22 EF-S, wide angle photography is no longer a pain in the butt.
I'm really starting to wonder if FF is the "pie in the sky" ultimate
digital camera I once thought it was or not?
--
It's spelt Lens or Lenses for more than one
 
People keep talking about the "reach" of crop cameras. This is an
illusion. > -Tacksharp
Perhaps it is a 'figure of speech' rather than an illusion.

Regardless, I get more pixels in the picture with a 40D and 400mm than with a 5D and 400mm cropped to the same field of view, so more to play with. Of course, I could get the same field of view and perhaps an even better image with a 5D and a 640mm lens if I wanted to cart that sort of weight around :D
 
Is it really worth the wait and expense when
cameras like the 40D can deliver awesome images, managable file
sizes, less weight and bulk and the choice of either standard and
EF-S lenses now?
Intrinsically, full-frame offers just one true advantage. At any given moment in the state of sensor technology, a full-frame sensor can collect more photons overall compared with a smaller sensor, including APS-C. This can be translated into more favorable tradeoff between noise at the pixel level and total pixel count (number of megapixels). As a result, the core justification for moving to full-frame comes down to whether or not APS-C can meet your own standards for both noise and resolution simultaneously.

So far we've talked about the intrinsic advantage. There are, however, several other advantages that arise in conjunction with the specific state of the photography market right now. That is, the specific lenses that are available for photographers to purchase and use (as opposed to theoretical ones that could be built but don't exist in anyone's catalog).

The first of these stems from available focal lengths. For any given focal length, an APS-C sensor will capture a narrower angle of view, requiring shorter focal lengths compared with full-frame to match AoV. If we could develop the existing range of lenses all over again, we could readily optimize for APS-C. However, the vast majorit of lenses in both the current catalog and in the used market were optimized for full-frame and thus don't necessarily provide optimal focal length. For example, my 24-135mm Tamron present a very useful range for full-frame but has too long a wide end on APS-C.

A related issue is depth of field. Once you match AoV between two cameras, one full-frame and one APS-C, you need to adjust the apertures differently as well to also match DoF. Specifically, the lens on the APS-C camera, already using a focal length that is 1.6x shorter compared with the one on the FF camera, needs to also use an aperture referenced by an f-number 1.6x smaller. If you do the math, you'll see that this is the same as both lenses having the same physical aperture diameter. Again, the existing catalog does not include lenses optimized for APS-C in this regard. You won't see a cheap 50mm f/1.13 lens designed for an APS-C camera designed to match AoV and DoF from an 80mm f/1.8 lens on full frame. It could be built, but the APS-C DSLR industry is too young to have revamped the entire catalog.

Another issue is viewfinder size and brightness. The focusing screen on an SLR is the same size as the actual sensor, since it sits the same optical distance from the lens (just along a different path while the primary mirror is down) and thus must receive the same projected image at the same focal distance. This means that you'd need more eyepiece magnification to produce the same viewfinder magnification. If you use a lens with the same maximum aperture (in f-stops) on both full-frame and APS-C, the APS-C camera's focusing screen will receive less total light (same light per unit area but less area) and thus will look dimmer when magnified to the same apparent size. To keep the viewfinder bright, APS-C cameras typically don't use this high an eyepiece mag and thus suffer from smaller viewfinders. Now, this could be remedied by the very same solution proposed for DoF ... using lenses with the same maximum effective physical aperture. That hypothetical 50mm f/1.13 on an APS-C camera would not only have the same DoF as an 80mm f/1.8 on full-frame, but its focusing screen would receive the same amount of light and thus could be magnified equally.

So, the FF advantage comes down to one intrinsic one and one that stems from available lenses. Of course, the story isn't at all gloomy for APS-C as long as you are already satisfied with the noise-resolution tradeoff, the focal length ranges, the shallowest DoF and the viewfinder size/brightness you are currently getting from today's APS-C cameras. For a great many people, the situation is good enough and not necessarily worth a minimum of an extra $1000 to change. This difference isn't likely to shrink for at least several more years since the increased size of a FF camera represents a significant extra manufacturing cost (an order of magnitude). You take a hit not only in the number of sensors you can make on a given wafer but in part yield as well.

APS-C happens to have an advantage of its own. Today's APS-C sensor have a tighter pixel pitch compared with FF sensors. This translates into mapping more pixels onto a given angle of view, which is good for getting maximum detail out of your telephoto shots. Yes, you could make a FF sensor with the same pitch. However, the resulting total pixel count would then be very high and would present a data flow issue for the camera (a need for high data bandwidth and buffer storage) that would increase the cost still further (and would likely decrease the frame rate, as with today's medium format backs).

David
 
In fairness, I should also add that it's not just a matter of manufacturers wanting to and having the resources to develop a new line of APS-C lenses with shorter focal length but the same effective aperture diameter. There are technical challenges to this stemming from the fact that maintaining physical aperture as you shrink focal length causes light to strike the sensor at increasingly larger angles to the perpendicular. While film was insensitive to angle of incidence, digital sensors have a much narrower angle of acceptance. This is in large part due to the use of microlenses to help concentrate light reaching the entire pixel area into the actual optically-active region. This remains a problem yet to be solved sufficiently. Leica's digital rangefinder tries to address this by displacing the microlenses increasingly as you move from center to corner of the sensor and by just adjusting for the remaining edge/corner vignetting digitally (as you might do in, say, Lightroom, but in the camera and using built-in tables for various lenses ... at the consequence of higher noise or reduced dynamic range at the corners/edges).

David
 
I agree with you on the crop factor, I would rather carry my 75-300mm IS around than a 500mm IS.

I looked at the 5D and the only thing that caught my eye was the bright viewfinder. Otherwise it seemed like a 30D without the built-in flash (which is a plus 1 for the 30D/40D). I don't use the built in flash much, but it is nice to know its there.

Another thing is the 30D/40D have greater DOF than the 5D does. I recently watched a video where it was demonstrated using a 30D with the 17-85mm and the 5D using the 28-135mm lens (same feild of view). The shots were taking inside a dining hall (as this was a wedding photography training video) and set up with everything being identical - aperture, shutter speed, focal length (in equivilent) on the same tripod. When you looked at the printed photographs there was a clear DOF advantage to the 30D over the 5D. The reason is, the 30D is using a wider angle lens to begin with which gives a greater DOF.
--
Travis
http://www.photosbytravis.com
Canon EOS 40D, Canon EOS 30D and Digital Rebel User
 
at the NYC show canon had a print comparison. they had 30X40 prints of the same model, same scene. all up rezzed in PS CS3 by 10% increments. they had a print from the hasselblad. they had a print from the 1D mk III. they had a print from the 1Ds mk III. they had a print from the 40D. i stood and looked for over 15 minutes. i asked some other people who were also looking. i could not tell any difference in the prints. if anything IQ looked a bit better in the 40D blowup. no one passing by could tell any difference in the prints.

nikon had some large prints from the D3. they looked nice but not spectacular. nothing that i could not achieve with my 40D.

i was not able to see any big advantage from the FF cameras. i think your ultimate output should determine the gear that you chose. i see not overwhelming reason to go FF.
 
Most people buy the 5D for the exact oposite reason you declared a plus. The shallower DOF is a plus to most photographers not a negative.

Rick
 
the answer is yes. Like film, the larger the format, the better the potential results will be. This will be most noticible in terms of spatial resolution upon enlargements. This becomes particularly noticible with small objects such as landscapes or group photos. Don't confuse sharpness with resolving power. There are numerous debates on this issue, and I'd suggest that you do a search on the topic.
 
With the same lens, the 40d outresolves the 5d...I've tested hundreds of times. Thus the theoretical "reach". In fact, the 40d outresolves the 30d as well.

This has nothing to do with crop or ff as you accurately noted, it has to do with pixel density or size. With a great lens, more pixels on your suject can give greater resolving power. Even the 70-300is shows it easily.

but smaller pixels = lower signal/noise ratio, which in one reason why the 5d is low noise king.
 
Yes even billboards look good from 300 feet away! :) I'm sure all the cameras you listed would look good from 10 feet away but there's times when you need and want to look at a print closer to see the detail.
 
People keep talking about the "reach" of crop cameras. This is an
illusion. You are simply getting a crop of the image that you'd get
with the same lens on FF, and that crop is just being stretched to
make it "look" like a longer zoom. You can get the same "reach" with
FF if you simply crop the image in PP and stretch it the same amount.
You just get so much more picture with FF (not to mention the
viewfinder image size). I agree with your conclusion about the 40D,
though. It has the best IQ available for under $1700 and the best
selection of lenses.
If you crop the 5D image to the same FOV you get with a 40D, you end up with much less resolution (and detail) than you get with the 40D. It's not an illusion, it's the advantage of a crop camera when one is looking for reach.

Sal
 
I wouldn't trade my 40D for any camera body in the Canon line-up, including the 1D line. It turns my 300 2.8 into a 670 f/4 with TC 1.4. I can hand-hold it with awesome results. The High ISO performance is more than adequate for delivering the fast shutterspeeds necessary for wildlife.

I can take great landscapes with the 40D as well, but a 5DMKII with more resolution would be very tempting for brining out the minute detail needed for this type of photography.

--
http://www.stirringimages.com
 
This webpage from Ken Rockwell (who seems to be a Nikon fan)

http://kenrockwell.com/tech/full-frame-advantage.htm

is interesting. I have a 40D, but would be curious to see what comes next with the next generation of the 5D. The lower noise at high ISO seems to be the most appealing feature of full frame.
 
That doesn't seem like something Canon would do. They want to sell cameras. Why make an exhibit that show people they only need to buy their $1300 camera instead of their $8000 camera?

I don't believe you. Nice attempt, troll. :)
 
I was all for 1.6x sensor and once I got the 10-22 I thaught I was all set. All that was needed was a newer camera with improved IQ, specially high noise performance. Did canon deliver that with 40D? Not obviously, maybe marginally.

This would lead me to think that canon has already pushed the limits of the 1.6 sensor the most they can with 20D's performance. The new 1DMIII indicates that larger sensors have much more room to grow. Hence for someone doing high ISO work, the dream of a affordable 5d successor FF becomes a very tempting pie for someone who has been hungry for better IQ for over 3 years.

Dont get me wrong, the IQ of the current sensor is far greater than my (and probably a large majority of hobbyists) skill for most conditions. But a higher performing sensor would Help quite a bit.
After reading numerous posts and viewing many image comparison images
concerning the merits of full frame vs. "crop" sensors such as the
40D's, I'm coming to question the importance of going "full frame".
Being somewhat old school myself, I've always thought I really hadn't
"arrived" completely in digital imaging until I got a true 24 X 36 mm
sensor camera. My biggest reason for not doing so was the obvious:
cost.
I see from the forum here though, that a lot of folks still feel that
they've got to eventually evolve into FF and they are just waiting
for the prices for these cameras to get down to roughly what you'd
pay for a 40D now. Is it really worth the wait and expense when
cameras like the 40D can deliver awesome images, managable file
sizes, less weight and bulk and the choice of either standard and
EF-S lenses now? Now that Canon has incredible lenses like the new
10-22 EF-S, wide angle photography is no longer a pain in the butt.
I'm really starting to wonder if FF is the "pie in the sky" ultimate
digital camera I once thought it was or not?
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/adatta

http://picasaweb.google.com/owaustin/
 

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