Question about FF vs DX (sorry) - experience anyone?

Ben Hoogendoorn97775

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I want to upgrade my D70 body, and am comparing the D3 and D300.

I'm either very bad at using the search feature and not finding what I'm looking for, or no one has really talked about this in much lately (not likely).

I want to understand more completely the differences between the full frame sensor and the DX sensor.

I travel quite a bit for work and have 3 young kids at home, so I shoot everything from landscape/architecture to youngsters traveling at/near the speed of sound. I like the D3 low light capabilities, but really want to have a good understanding of the pros/cons of FF vs DX. I don't have a lot of money invested in glass yet (18-70 kit lens and 50mm 1.4) If you have objective comments or if can direct me to where I can find them, it would be greatly appreciated!!

Ben

-----------------------------------------
D70~ CP4500 'I'm in shape!!......round's a shape....'
http://www.snowfort.smugmug.com
 
IMO, the way you'll use the camera is significantly more important than the sensor size. for travel and kids, the D300 form factor is much easier to deal with than the larger/heavier D3 form factor. ...dav
--
don't wait for technology -- it won't wait for you
 
I agree, the D3 is a professional camera. The D300 is 90% of the D3 but 1/3rd the cost. I would say it would be overkill for you to go to the D3 considering the way you use your camera and your lack of glass.

The D300 will still be a very good camera.
--
Bruce Allen Hendricks MPA, F.Ph.
http://www.impactphotographicdesign.com
 
Hello there,

I don't agree with the replies above : I think you'll need all the low light capabilities you can to make available light pictures of your kids . The D3 combined with your 50 f1.4 will be a perfect match. Wether you're willing to pay for it is entirely up to you...

Now about the FF vs DX thing : I've found this rather helpfull : http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/dark.htm

Good luck

J. Bne

--
' less IS more '
 
The other posts are accurate if price is a factor for you. I'll remove price out of the mix and throw in my 2 cents.

If you're a landscape guy (and you mentioned you are) and you like going wide a full frame body has advantages over the DX model.

Other advantages of full frame include more control of depth of field, and for the same number of pixels you should be more able to get sharper shots with the FX body. Given the relationship of DX sensor vs FX sensor you should be able to get better results on the bigger size FX sensor. That's the math of it. Since I have not shot them both and compared them side by side I don't know. But I trust the math.

High ISO noise will also be much better on the full frame vs DX. Again, it's pure math and I have no doubt about this one. No need to compare. Though the D300 seems to be no slouch for noise performance.

Now, if you're a nature guy and you need reach I'd say the DX format has its advantages. Your 400mm lens (for example) gives you the reach of a 600mm without the cost of the 600mm. Yes you are still using a 400 mm, but the crop for a full frame with the same pixel count using the same lens is not going to yield as good a shot. So with a full frame you're left with buying longer lenses that will cost a heck of a lot more. But if you get back to my point of excluding cost - you can just pony up and get the longer lenses on the full frame body. That would be my choice, except I'm unfortunatley sensitive to cost.

So if cost is not a factor I see no reason to not buy the D3 over the D300. I have no intent of buying a D3 just so you know where my finances stand.

--
Derbez
 
Buy the D300 . . . and with the money you have saved buy some good glass !

--
Take a look at my album . . . http://www.F1Album.com
 
I'm not sure if lack of glass is a factor or not. I thought it might actually be advantageous that I hadn't bought a ton of DX glass already.

As far as being a pro camera... I'm more interested in the low light capabilities for both my kids, and the inside of cathedrals, museums etc... that I tend to visit while abroad.

As far as cost goes, it may seem crazy to some to spend that amount of money on a camera. At first I thought the same thing until I thought about it. Some of my friends have snowmobiles, ATVs and motorcycles that they paid (and continue to pay) much much more for, than I would on a D3 and some glass. And to boot, they only use them for a few months of the year, if they're lucky! When I compare their hobbies, time used and relative cost.... mine is cheap! Considering I don't drink or smoke, the D3 looks like a pretty reasonable choice.

The size/weight issue I'll have to see about. Is the D3 pretty comparable to the D2x series as far as that is concerned? Maybe I'll drop by a local camera shop and check it out to see what I might be getting into.

Thanks for all of your opinions!

--
-----------------------------------------
D70~ CP4500 'I'm in shape!!......round's a shape....'
http://www.snowfort.smugmug.com
 
buy the d300 and wait till the d3x comes out,... then sell the d300..
and only buy non DX glass from now on.
 
I want to upgrade my D70 body, and am comparing the D3 and D300.

I'm either very bad at using the search feature and not finding what
I'm looking for, or no one has really talked about this in much
lately (not likely).

I want to understand more completely the differences between the full
frame sensor and the DX sensor.
The main difference is the size of the individual pixel. The D3 wins hand down here. Each sensor has some background noise, and the bigger the individual pixel, the more photons it can collect for any given period of time for a stronger signal. A stronger signal will allow for a higher signal to noise ratio. Since high ISO settings are achieved by amplifying the signal, a stronger signal will need less amplification and it will also result in lower noise. A side benefit of a bigger pixel is that it can collect more light before the signal overflows, just as a bigger bucket can collect more rain water before overflowing. That means sensors with bigger individual pixels will be able to record highlight details when a sensor with smaller pixels will be overloaded, and the highlights will be washed out. Dynamic range, in other words, should be greater with the D3 than the D300.
I travel quite a bit for work and have 3 young kids at home, so I
shoot everything from landscape/architecture to youngsters traveling
at/near the speed of sound. I like the D3 low light capabilities,
but really want to have a good understanding of the pros/cons of FF
vs DX.
In practically any respect, the full frame wins hands down. The only disadvantage is the high price. If price is a problem and you want a full frame, there is always the Canon EOS 5D, now selling for only a few hundred bucks more than the D300 is projected to cost.
I don't have a lot of money invested in glass yet (18-70 kit
lens and 50mm 1.4) If you have objective comments or if can direct me
to where I can find them, it would be greatly appreciated!!

Ben
Get a full frame and save money by avoiding costly DX glass. A 12-24mm f/4 DX lens costs you around $900. A full frame equivalent for this lens is the 20-35mm. And a 20-35mm lens is much cheaper. The 20-35mm f/2.8 Tokina for example is faster and it costs less than the 12-24 f/4 Tokina DX lens.
 
Now, if you're a nature guy and you need reach I'd say the DX format
has its advantages.
I disagree.
Your 400mm lens (for example) gives you the
reach of a 600mm without the cost of the 600mm.
A 1.5x teleconverter can do the same job and a good one costs less than $100.
Yes you are still
using a 400 mm, but the crop for a full frame with the same pixel
count using the same lens is not going to yield as good a shot.
Again I disagree. The DX camera may have more pixels, but the pixels are smaller, so they don't record as strong a signal. Signal to noise ratio will be lower when using a DX camera, so the quality of the image is less.
So
with a full frame you're left with buying longer lenses that will
cost a heck of a lot more.
Not so. A DX camera may force a buyer to pay dearly for a f/2.8 telephoto, but the 2-3 stop advantage of a full frame allows a user to get by nicely with a lighter and cheaper f/5.6 lens. A D3 user can shoot at ISO 1600 with a 400mm f/5.6 lens, whereas a D300 user may need to shoot at ISO 400 with a 300mm f/2.8 lens. The 300mm f/2.8 lens is a lot more expensive than the 400mm f/5.6.
But if you get back to my point of
excluding cost - you can just pony up and get the longer lenses on
the full frame body. That would be my choice, except I'm
unfortunatley sensitive to cost.

So if cost is not a factor I see no reason to not buy the D3 over the
D300.
I agree. But as I pointed out elsewhere, even the extra cost may be justified because DX lenses are not cheap. Their full frame equivalents are cheaper. A Tokina 12-24mm f/4 DX lens, for example costs much more than the full frame equivalent Tokina AT-X 20-35mm f/2.8 lens. And the 20-35mm is a stop faster and sharper to boot.
I have no intent of buying a D3 just so you know where my
finances stand.

--
Derbez
I am not buying the D3 either, but may consider a Canon 5D if the price is right. Lots of folks are hoping Nikon will introduce a full frame selling for around the price of a Canon 5D. I consider that extremely unlikely because that would cut into the sales of both the D3 and the D300.
 
I don't agree with the replies above : I think you'll need all the
low light capabilities you can to make available light pictures of
your kids . The D3 combined with your 50 f1.4 will be a perfect
match. Wether you're willing to pay for it is entirely up to you...
there's a big difference between "available light" and "dark". a 50/1.4 @ ISO640 and below will capture most any reasonable available light shot. you'll miss a few kids action shots at the dark end, but not enough to upgrade over. best case, the D300 ISO improvements will give you the 1-2 stops needed to get that back too....dav

--
don't wait for technology -- it won't wait for you
 
I'm not sure if lack of glass is a factor or not.
lack of good glass is ALWAYS a factor in photography. its the #1 thing beginners underrate and leads to years of questions along the lines of "why don't my pictures look as good as..."
As far as being a pro camera... I'm more interested in the low light
capabilities for both my kids, and the inside of cathedrals, museums
etc... that I tend to visit while abroad.
even with the latest improvements, low light is still about fast glass first and then ISO/noise.
The size/weight issue I'll have to see about. Is the D3 pretty
comparable to the D2x series as far as that is concerned?
yes. i suggest renting a D2xs and following your kid around for a day to get a feel for it. if yours are like mine, you'll start looking toward a D40x next! ;)

...dav

--
don't wait for technology -- it won't wait for you
 
I'm not sure if lack of glass is a factor or not.
lack of good glass is ALWAYS a factor in photography. its the #1
thing beginners underrate and leads to years of questions along the
lines of "why don't my pictures look as good as..."
I agree 100%. However he said lack of glass... not lack of good glass. I only have two lenses right now so I think that's all he meant.

-----------------------------------------
D70~ CP4500 'I'm in shape!!......round's a shape....'
http://www.snowfort.smugmug.com
 
Yes, the glass issue is almost as much a consideration, if not more since I would be planning on keeping the lenses.

I don't really want to amass a collection of DX glass, sell at a discount and buy FF lenses to rebuild my collection. I'm wanting to do this once if I can.

I thank you for your input!!

--
-----------------------------------------
D70~ CP4500 'I'm in shape!!......round's a shape....'
http://www.snowfort.smugmug.com
 
n a nutshell, the D300 will make fantastic looking 20x30 inch prints at ISO1600. At ISO 3200, you'll be able to get great looking 11x17 inch prints.

With the D3, at ISO 1600 you'll be able to get fantastic looking 30x45 inch prints. At ISO3200 you'll be a ble to get great looking 20x30 inch prints.

So, ask yourself, just how large of a print do you plan on making on a regular basis? Keep in mind the costs for mounting and framing prints goes up exponentially once your frame dimension exceeds 16x24 inches. For example, a good quality 16x24 inch frame will cost between 50 and 100 dollars. Bump the size to 40x60 inches and your probably looking at a frame that costs well over 300 dollars. BTW, I am talking GOOD metal frames with anti glare glass, not the cheap plastic junk available at wallmart.

BTW, I have found that an 11x17 inch print properly matted in a 16x20 inch frame is just about perfect for in home display. It's a size that's small enough for you do devote a wall to your images but large enough to be visually interesting. I'll do an occasional 16x20 print in a 24x28 inch frame but any larger just is too dominant in most houses. Here's one tip, if you ceiling height is only 7.5 to 8 feet, you'll want to keep your frames down to about a 24 inch height. If you hang too large of a print on a wall with a low ceiling it just ends up looking like wallpaper instead of a framed peice of art. The simple fact is that it takes a BIG room to make a large print look like it belongs there.

So, here's the bottomline. If your just going to make 11x17, or 13x19 inch prints, the D300 will suit you just fine. It'll also work fine for prints up to 20x30 inches but the 30x40 inch matt and frame will limit where you can put a print that large, basically over your fireplace or perhaps over the sideboard in the dining room. And yes, I matt every print that I frame. Call me old fashioned but I think that mattless framed prints look tacky.

I should also point out that buying the D300 will leave you funds to buy some fast primes. Which will help balance out the somewhat better high ISO performance of the D3. For a museum, you'll probably want the 30mm f1.4 Sigma. For portraits, how about the 85mm f1.8? Want somewhat long and fast, try looking into the 135mm f2 DC Nikkor. Want great and long, try the 300mm f2.8VR. you get the idea, that extra 3000 dollars can help you ge dome lenses with some real drool appeal. I should also note that the last 3 are full frame, so you'll be ready when Nikon releases the D400 in 2 or 3 years in the FX format.

PS. I would evaluate the D3 as having about a one stop advantage over the D300 at high ISO values. However, the DX format has about a 1 stop wider Depth of Field compared to the FX format. What it means is that at f2.8 on the DX format you'll have the same DOF as you would at f4 on the FX format. So, if you shoot an image at f2.8 with the D300 at ISO1600 you'll get basically the same image as you would shooting at f4 and ISO3200 with the D3. Same DOF, same shutter speed, same exposure level. Since both camera have basically the same resolution it boils down to a tossup unless you plan on making some really large prints. The reason that the FX format has an advantage for larger prints is because the larger format can resolve more fine detail than the smaller format, even when the camera resolution is the same. That is because a lens will resolve a certain number of lines per millimeter on either format and the larger format has a sensor 1.5 time larger, so it can capture 1.5 more lines across the frame. However, since the fine detail where this is visible is so small, it takes a really large print in order to see the difference. Which is why your print size is what should drive your choice and nothing else.

PSS, please note that I didn't mention any use of these cameras for electronic display. The reason for that is simple, the best monitors out there are limited to about 4mp reslolution. Since you would be down-rezzing any web image, either of these cameras is overkill for web use. For web only use, the D2Hs would probably be a better choice.
 
I think I have made my decision.

What I'll do is keep my current equipment (for now), and spend a bit of money on some lighting equipment and learn how to use it indoors. I think for me, a wise investment before money, is time and effort. After perusing the lighting techniques forum, I can see that I am sorely lacking in some basic lighting skills. I must admit, my heart wants a new camera body; but being the overly objective person that I am, common sense wins out again! Oh why can't I be an impulsive 16yr old again!!???

--
-----------------------------------------
D70~ CP4500 'I'm in shape!!......round's a shape....'
http://www.snowfort.smugmug.com
 
"However, the DX format has about a 1 stop wider Depth of Field compared to the FX format. "

That of course depends on several things. If you use the same lens from the same distance it is my understanding that the depth of field doesn't change. E. g. if you are a concert shooter and all you have is a 85mm f/1.4D lens you will get the same depth of field with DX FX when you are 3 meters from the band (and can't go either closer or further away). Of course, the FX will show more of the scene. As far as I understand it you get more depth of field with FX because you either go closer to the subject or use a longer focal length to get the same framing as with DX.

(Nothing wrong with your posting, just trying to make something more precise)

Best wishes,
Markus
 
talk about non sequiters. i'm at a loss how you arrived at a lighting solution when starting from: "I travel quite a bit for work and have 3 young kids at home, so I shoot everything from landscape/architecture to youngsters traveling at/near the speed of sound."

although i can see how a set of Alien Bees and a trip wire might help capture the kids...dav
--
don't wait for technology -- it won't wait for you
 
I'd assume you read my entire analysis of FX vs DX. If so you know I'd prefer and definately think FX is the way to go. Now, as for the 1.4 TC (Nikon does not make a 1.5) I still think you're missing the boat. Sure it turns your 400 into a 560, but now you're not comparing apples to apples. To do so you'd have to put the teleconverter on the D300 as well. You get the point. Also, you are going to lose a full stop using the 1.4TC as compared to the reach of the D300 without the TC. I'd just go with a 600mm lens & the D3. And after the credit card bill comes I'll deal with the divorce.

Derbez
 

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