BabyNSX
Well-known member
The photographer is the most important element in a system. Having the most cash and the most expensive camera and lenses will NOT make you the best photographer.
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P
Paul Pope
Guest
There are alternative ideas ....
Keep your current D30 ....and buy glass instead of upgrading to say a D60 you won't need if you don't print over A4 as most people don't.
If your thinking of a 1D but cannot afford both the body and the glass ....go for the glass and get a D60 instead.
The whole point is ..... if your going to spend $$$ spend it on the lens system before you spend it on bodies .... in the long run it WILL save you money.
The very idea of someone spending $5000 on a 1D and then walking around with a cheap lens on it is something beyond my comprehension.
The lenses EOS1 system owners should aspire to are
16-35L f/2.8
28-70L f/2.8
70-200L f/2.8 IS
50 f/1.4
85L f/1.2
100-400 IS
and finaly
the 400L f/2.8 IS
And I'm not looking down on anyone ...of course people can put whatever they like on THEIR cameras ..however a $5000 body with a $300 lens on it makes absolutly no sense to me.
Someone emailed me recently asking me if I recommended the EOS 1D to them ... I asked them what 35mm body they usualy used ...they replied that they had never used a SLR before and were looking to upgrade their G1 .... I asked what film camera they used ... they replied that they had never used a film camera as they got involved with photography thru digital cameras (a good thing and a current trend).
My point is ..this person was seriously considering a 1D when they should have been buying a 2nd hand F1 and learning the zone system.
Quite simply no matter how expensive your equipment you need to be able to understand photography before you wil lget the best out of it but when considering equipment choices it is my advice to always consider lenses before all else.
Keep your current D30 ....and buy glass instead of upgrading to say a D60 you won't need if you don't print over A4 as most people don't.
If your thinking of a 1D but cannot afford both the body and the glass ....go for the glass and get a D60 instead.
The whole point is ..... if your going to spend $$$ spend it on the lens system before you spend it on bodies .... in the long run it WILL save you money.
The very idea of someone spending $5000 on a 1D and then walking around with a cheap lens on it is something beyond my comprehension.
The lenses EOS1 system owners should aspire to are
16-35L f/2.8
28-70L f/2.8
70-200L f/2.8 IS
50 f/1.4
85L f/1.2
100-400 IS
and finaly
the 400L f/2.8 IS
And I'm not looking down on anyone ...of course people can put whatever they like on THEIR cameras ..however a $5000 body with a $300 lens on it makes absolutly no sense to me.
Someone emailed me recently asking me if I recommended the EOS 1D to them ... I asked them what 35mm body they usualy used ...they replied that they had never used a SLR before and were looking to upgrade their G1 .... I asked what film camera they used ... they replied that they had never used a film camera as they got involved with photography thru digital cameras (a good thing and a current trend).
My point is ..this person was seriously considering a 1D when they should have been buying a 2nd hand F1 and learning the zone system.
Quite simply no matter how expensive your equipment you need to be able to understand photography before you wil lget the best out of it but when considering equipment choices it is my advice to always consider lenses before all else.
P
Paul Pope
Guest
Errr... I shot 46 rolls on my Hasselblad today .... enough said?
What bugs me is people (like you) using digital cameras. Indeed, ifIt really bugs me to see people on this forum buying Eos-1D's and
then putting crappy glass on them.
you were any kind of real photographer at all you'd be using
medium format.
INDEED, if you aren't using a medium format camera with film then
you suck!
I just hate it when people use D30's, 1D's etc. It's worse than
people who use point-and-shoots. At least they are so dumb they can
be forgiven. People like you should know better. You suck.
And so does everyone else on this group! I'd NEVER use a D30 or any
other digital camera. And if I ever do, may the Big Guy strike me
down with a bolt of lightning!
dd
P
Paul Pope
Guest
It ain't any of my business eirther ...but I feel its in people considering spending major $$$ on equipment's best interest for me to point out some of the mistakes I feel people make in considering the Camera body over the lens.
While I aggree it seems strange that someone who has the ability to
purchase a 1D would purchase cheap glass to go along with it I am
wondering why you are bothered by it. Its not you who will be using
it after all. To each his own I guess.
I have seen similar situations though. I have seen folks at the zoo
using a 1V and Gitzo tripod but they have a cheap Quantary or
Tamron telephoto lens mounted on it and I am just thinking what
the??
Out of curiosity I have been tempted to ask them why they are using
a $100 telephoto lens on a $2,000 camera but figured it was none of
my business.
--
Mike
P
Paul Pope
Guest
That is correct ....
I don't think that it is stressed enough here.
I don't think that it is stressed enough here.
The photographer is the most important element in a system. HavingBecause he cares more about photography, than the equipment?
He is 100 percent right! The glass is the most important element in
a system.
the most cash and the most expensive camera and lenses will NOT
make you the best photographer.
P
Paul Pope
Guest
See in my view ....you use maunul settings and the right film and a Rebel will take just as good a pic as a 1V ... DSLR's are different beasts becasue each model is tied to its sensor and software.
Not that I understand what a 600 was doing on a Rebel but ....its not going to effect the final image at all.
Not that I understand what a 600 was doing on a Rebel but ....its not going to effect the final image at all.
I have seen people using $120 Rebel G's on a $7,000 600mm F4 before
at the zoo. They could have rented the lens but it just seemdsodd
to see that combo.
--
Mike
J
John Mason
Guest
some of the responders don't seem to know where you are coming from.
He is speaking as a pro photographer that has all the goodies.
A translation that more people may relate to:
You just bought your Dodge Viper and asked the dealer to credit and swap the tires for the ones that go on a dodge neon.
He is saying it's weird to him that people - having choices for a D60 or a 1D will get the 1D with junk lenses instead of a D60 with good lenses. To him it would be like people are buying the 1d as a status symbol instead of thinking through their purchase.
But jealous? Check his history of threads - he is fully equiped.
Another way to look at this is as the cost of digital photography comes done we see people jumping to the D60 or 1D with no film SLR background. This is for a camera that costs more than the absoulute top of the line in the film world. So when Paul sees people - newcomers perhaps - getting their first serious SLR then buying cheap lenses - it's a dichotomy that to see if frustrating for him - because he cares. I know his post doesn't sound like he cares - but he knows people putting cheap glass on an expensive camera are short changing their photographic experience.
Another way to look at it. Some people have owned and loved motorcylces all their life. Many people buy harleys as their first motorcycle when they are 40. They buy the leather jackets and all the trimings. Then they might ride once a month or with their club. They look like motorcycle riders - but are they really. They may become a real motorcycle rider - but many are just in their mid-life crisis and have the money so they buy the status symbol.
There is some of this going on in 1d purchases. Well heeled folks that got the bucks then buy the real deal - then show that they are in their photographic mid-life crises by not really doing the things a real photographer would do - like shoot jpg and eschew raw processing - or not use tripods when appropriate then complain about low sharpness - or use cheap glass and complain about how their 990 was sharper. Come on - read the threads - you people must admit that this forum - as it ages - is becoming more and more newbie oriented - and this - for a 2000 to 5000 dollar body only camera purchase. Doesn't anyone else think this is strange?
I will continue to help people with questions but the negative posters who knock the camera but don't really do photography - I believe this is the type of person Paul is frustrated with. He just expressed it in a way that hit a lot of hot buttons.
Especially since the 70-200L may be a good lens. That comment obscured what otherwise was a pretty true post. Not all L glass is ultimately as sharp as all non-L glass. Each lens needs judged on it's own and the intended use. But don't let this little red hering obscure the truth of the original post.
Let's be photographers first - equipment junkies 2nd.--John Mason - Lafayette, IN
He is speaking as a pro photographer that has all the goodies.
A translation that more people may relate to:
You just bought your Dodge Viper and asked the dealer to credit and swap the tires for the ones that go on a dodge neon.
He is saying it's weird to him that people - having choices for a D60 or a 1D will get the 1D with junk lenses instead of a D60 with good lenses. To him it would be like people are buying the 1d as a status symbol instead of thinking through their purchase.
But jealous? Check his history of threads - he is fully equiped.
Another way to look at this is as the cost of digital photography comes done we see people jumping to the D60 or 1D with no film SLR background. This is for a camera that costs more than the absoulute top of the line in the film world. So when Paul sees people - newcomers perhaps - getting their first serious SLR then buying cheap lenses - it's a dichotomy that to see if frustrating for him - because he cares. I know his post doesn't sound like he cares - but he knows people putting cheap glass on an expensive camera are short changing their photographic experience.
Another way to look at it. Some people have owned and loved motorcylces all their life. Many people buy harleys as their first motorcycle when they are 40. They buy the leather jackets and all the trimings. Then they might ride once a month or with their club. They look like motorcycle riders - but are they really. They may become a real motorcycle rider - but many are just in their mid-life crisis and have the money so they buy the status symbol.
There is some of this going on in 1d purchases. Well heeled folks that got the bucks then buy the real deal - then show that they are in their photographic mid-life crises by not really doing the things a real photographer would do - like shoot jpg and eschew raw processing - or not use tripods when appropriate then complain about low sharpness - or use cheap glass and complain about how their 990 was sharper. Come on - read the threads - you people must admit that this forum - as it ages - is becoming more and more newbie oriented - and this - for a 2000 to 5000 dollar body only camera purchase. Doesn't anyone else think this is strange?
I will continue to help people with questions but the negative posters who knock the camera but don't really do photography - I believe this is the type of person Paul is frustrated with. He just expressed it in a way that hit a lot of hot buttons.
Especially since the 70-200L may be a good lens. That comment obscured what otherwise was a pretty true post. Not all L glass is ultimately as sharp as all non-L glass. Each lens needs judged on it's own and the intended use. But don't let this little red hering obscure the truth of the original post.
Let's be photographers first - equipment junkies 2nd.--John Mason - Lafayette, IN
Paul, what you said was absolute true. However, after people bought the 1D or whatever camera costing several grands, they are dried up financially for a long while before they can afford to spend $$$$$ on nice lenses... It's just an expensive hobby that will not have an end to it!!!
There are alternative ideas ....
Keep your current D30 ....and buy glass instead of upgrading to say
a D60 you won't need if you don't print over A4 as most people
don't.
If your thinking of a 1D but cannot afford both the body and the
glass ....go for the glass and get a D60 instead.
The whole point is ..... if your going to spend $$$ spend it on the
lens system before you spend it on bodies .... in the long run it
WILL save you money.
The very idea of someone spending $5000 on a 1D and then walking
around with a cheap lens on it is something beyond my comprehension.
The lenses EOS1 system owners should aspire to are
16-35L f/2.8
28-70L f/2.8
70-200L f/2.8 IS
50 f/1.4
85L f/1.2
100-400 IS
and finaly
the 400L f/2.8 IS
And I'm not looking down on anyone ...of course people can put
whatever they like on THEIR cameras ..however a $5000 body with a
$300 lens on it makes absolutly no sense to me.
Someone emailed me recently asking me if I recommended the EOS 1D
to them ... I asked them what 35mm body they usualy used ...they
replied that they had never used a SLR before and were looking to
upgrade their G1 .... I asked what film camera they used ... they
replied that they had never used a film camera as they got involved
with photography thru digital cameras (a good thing and a current
trend).
My point is ..this person was seriously considering a 1D when they
should have been buying a 2nd hand F1 and learning the zone system.
Quite simply no matter how expensive your equipment you need to be
able to understand photography before you wil lget the best out of
it but when considering equipment choices it is my advice to always
consider lenses before all else.
P
Paul Pope
Guest
nothing is wrong with it ..... my point is for people considering upgrading camera bodies to spend the $$$ on quality glass instead.
Sorry I ment the 55-200 ......
Sorry I ment the 55-200 ......
John
It really bugs me to see people on this forum buying Eos-1D's and
then putting crappy glass on them.
If you going to buy a 1D for gods sake its a expensive camera so
give it the courtesy of putting nice glass on it.
None of this Sigma stuff please ...none of these 70-200 f/4's .....
The only non L series lens that should be allowed near a 1D is a
50mm f/1.4 prime.
If you cannot afford the cost of L series glass to go on it a 1D is
not for you buy a D60 instead and spend the extra $$$ on glass for
it ..you will have a better system and while DSLR bodies are
updated all the time the glass will still be good years from now.
And that is my $0.02
J
John Mason
Guest
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1019&message=2520593
--John Mason - Lafayette, IN
--John Mason - Lafayette, IN
P
Paul Pope
Guest
Exactly !!!!
My advice is DON'T buy the camera body ..spend the $$$ on lenses instead and keep your old camera. In the end you will benifit greatly and have something you can keep for a long time instead of the 1-2 year product cycle of a 1D type camera.
My advice is DON'T buy the camera body ..spend the $$$ on lenses instead and keep your old camera. In the end you will benifit greatly and have something you can keep for a long time instead of the 1-2 year product cycle of a 1D type camera.
Paul, what you said was absolute true. However, after people
bought the 1D or whatever camera costing several grands, they are
dried up financially for a long while before they can afford to
spend $$$$$ on nice lenses... It's just an expensive hobby that
will not have an end to it!!!
J
Jim Dawson
Guest
Maybe some are even more dense than I am, but I personally don't require a translation. I can even understand politicians without the talking heads translating for me.
I think the point of the respondents is that, though probaly true, its noone's place to criticize how they spend their own money. I am way more of an equipment junkie than photographer. I want to learn, but part of the fun for me is the equipment.
I'm glad I haven't bought a 1D yet, I'm ashamed enough to have put a 70-200 f/4 L (I guess not a real "L") on my D30. Obviously, I would have to shoot myself if I put it on a 1D.
Jim
I think the point of the respondents is that, though probaly true, its noone's place to criticize how they spend their own money. I am way more of an equipment junkie than photographer. I want to learn, but part of the fun for me is the equipment.
I'm glad I haven't bought a 1D yet, I'm ashamed enough to have put a 70-200 f/4 L (I guess not a real "L") on my D30. Obviously, I would have to shoot myself if I put it on a 1D.
Jim
J
Jay Abend
Guest
OK- 46 rolls of 120 through a Blad by noon today? (Actually wasn't your first post around 10:00 am?)Errr... I shot 46 rolls on my Hasselblad today .... enough said?
You win- you're the fastest 120 shooter I ever heard of....took me all day to shoot 6 rolls yesterday. (My client likes to actually look at the Polaroids)
How could ANYONE care what another person buys- Frankly- there aer plenty of reasons to buy a 1D or a D1X and then put cheap glass on it- Cheap glass is usually just fine at f 8 or f 11, Sigma and Tokina glass can shoot as fast as the body can, so 8 fps is possible- My 1D is a great camera and I own lots of "L" glass, but I use it for work. There aer plenty of photo hobbyists who just like "stuff". Who cares?
Now that I have the 1D and 2 D60 bodies I fnid that I'm not using the 1D at all, and am moving it to a local newpaper guy. For me and my clients it's about the image quality- and sometimes the image quality with a cheapo lens is identical to an "L" lens- stopped down of course.
To each his own- Frankly a D60 or 1D with a $200 Sigma 50 f 2.8 Macro is as sharp if not sharper than anything in the Canon line. Their 24 f 2.8 prime is also sharp. I agree that all of the $300 to $500 zooms SUCK wide open, but stopped down they're fine for general usage.
Jay
http://www.abendimaging.com
P
Paul Pope
Guest
I screwed up with the 70-200L f/4 I ment the 55-200 ..someone was asking me if that would be a suitable lens for a 1D ....
You are correct in all your other interpratations...
You are correct in all your other interpratations...
some of the responders don't seem to know where you are coming >
Especially since the 70-200L may be a good lens. That comment
obscured what otherwise was a pretty true post. Not all L glass is
ultimately as sharp as all non-L glass. Each lens needs judged on
it's own and the intended use. But don't let this little red
hering obscure the truth of the original post.
Let's be photographers first - equipment junkies 2nd.
--
John Mason - Lafayette, IN
J
Jim Dawson
Guest
Had it been written that way, it probably would have been graciously accepted.
Jim
Jim
It ain't any of my business eirther ...but I feel its in people
considering spending major $$$ on equipment's best interest for me
to point out some of the mistakes I feel people make in considering
the Camera body over the lens.
P
Paul Pope
Guest
Its 2.47 am here in Melbourne Australia mate...
I worked from 8am until 7pm .....shooting product for caterlog...(and yes I used film ...rare but refreshing)
I'm offering people a opinion ..advice...they can take it or leave it.
I worked from 8am until 7pm .....shooting product for caterlog...(and yes I used film ...rare but refreshing)
Well when i see people asking me if a F/5.6 sigma lens would be ok for their new 1D that they just got to replace their G1 I start thinking perhaps these people are more interested in the Camera itself then the photography they might do with it.OK- 46 rolls of 120 through a Blad by noon today? (Actually wasn'tErrr... I shot 46 rolls on my Hasselblad today .... enough said?
your first post around 10:00 am?)
You win- you're the fastest 120 shooter I ever heard of....took me
all day to shoot 6 rolls yesterday. (My client likes to actually
look at the Polaroids)
How could ANYONE care what another person buys- Frankly- there aer
plenty of reasons to buy a 1D or a D1X and then put cheap glass on
it- Cheap glass is usually just fine at f 8 or f 11, Sigma and
Tokina glass can shoot as fast as the body can, so 8 fps is
possible- My 1D is a great camera and I own lots of "L" glass, but
I use it for work. There aer plenty of photo hobbyists who just
like "stuff". Who cares?
I'm offering people a opinion ..advice...they can take it or leave it.
JohnLund
Well-known member
....feel better now!?
I used to sell cameras and said this about 100 times a day. But I think buyers were more concerned about having that big expensive label telling the world's other beginners that they were "real" photographers, not knowing that cheap lenses labelled them as photographic dolts with money.
Cheers,
JL
I used to sell cameras and said this about 100 times a day. But I think buyers were more concerned about having that big expensive label telling the world's other beginners that they were "real" photographers, not knowing that cheap lenses labelled them as photographic dolts with money.
Cheers,
JL
--...f8 and be there!Exactly !!!!
My advice is DON'T buy the camera body ..spend the $$$ on lenses
instead and keep your old camera. In the end you will benifit
greatly and have something you can keep for a long time instead of
the 1-2 year product cycle of a 1D type camera.
P
Paul Pope
Guest
Tactful ain't my strong suit ...Oops
Jim
It ain't any of my business eirther ...but I feel its in people
considering spending major $$$ on equipment's best interest for me
to point out some of the mistakes I feel people make in considering
the Camera body over the lens.
J
Jay Abend
Guest
Didn't know you were in Australia- But honestly- isn't it obvious looking at these forums that the folks here are hobbyists? (You don;t need $10,000 USD worth of gear to shoot cats, kids and sunsets after all)
But so what? An amateur's choice of gear is no less valid than yours or mine, unless they ask us directly! I write all sorts of articles in Shutterbug Magazine and tell about my strobes etc., and folks always E-Mail me wondering why they can't get their Hardware store lighting to match mine.
I really don;t see a problem with chea plenses or cheap cameras for that matter- If the results aren't to your liking then of course you'll start looking at better lenses. Since the body is the meat and potatoes what's wrong with getting the great body first, then eventually upgrading lenses- again- stopped down you'll get max performance out of the body and wide open you'll have to live with a bit of softness.
46 rolls of 120? Who's scanning? And how large are they runnnig that yuo wouldn't use a 1D or D60 files, or rent a DCS Proback?
But so what? An amateur's choice of gear is no less valid than yours or mine, unless they ask us directly! I write all sorts of articles in Shutterbug Magazine and tell about my strobes etc., and folks always E-Mail me wondering why they can't get their Hardware store lighting to match mine.
I really don;t see a problem with chea plenses or cheap cameras for that matter- If the results aren't to your liking then of course you'll start looking at better lenses. Since the body is the meat and potatoes what's wrong with getting the great body first, then eventually upgrading lenses- again- stopped down you'll get max performance out of the body and wide open you'll have to live with a bit of softness.
46 rolls of 120? Who's scanning? And how large are they runnnig that yuo wouldn't use a 1D or D60 files, or rent a DCS Proback?
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