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560UZ Review

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Other than shadow technology, it doesn't look like any improvement to the 550. As the review stated, the FZ-18 is better. Oh well...I was sort of hoping that the 550's pitfalls would be improved upon by the 560 - but I guess not. A shame really. What happened to you Olympus? How did you lose your edge in the realm of digicams?
--
Good shooting...

Ben

 
That is very early to say I think. The review starts quite negative, so there may be some bias. They say that a wider angle isn't a good thing... Also they don't explain why it is not as good as the fz 18. I would wait for a better review.

--
Fiorano

http://www.pbase.com/fiorano
 
The reviewer certainly uses unique terminology.

She describes the SP560 as a "Test camera" yet never defines the term. I've heard of the term pre-production versus production camera with reviewers making certain to distinguish when they are using a pre-production camera, the reasoning being that changes can still occur prior to production. This reviewer barely aknowledges that she was not using a production SP560.

It's hard to trust a reviewer that uses terms that either on purpose or lacks the ability to differentiate their testing methods. Where's the side by side comparison(s)? Panosonic is well known to have noise issues yet this (Z18) model suddenly performs the miracle of acceptable noise up to ISO 800?

I, in no way, am questioning whether the Z18 is better or not. What I question is what in the world the reviewer did to prove it or not.
--
Steve

Minds are like parachutes, they only work when they are open - Unknown
 
The noise issues that the previous Panny's had seems to have been largely overcome with an apparently newer version of the Venus III engine coupled with a new sensor that are both found in the FZ 18. Progress for sure there.

We cannot judge and should not prejudge a camera by what a manufactuer did before, but must test each camera individualy. Its progress, and sadly, sometimes regress.

Look at Fuji that went from a wonderful S6000fd with a SuperCCD to the newer s8000fd WITHOUT a SuperCCD. Go figure.

Can we say the the p&s cameras from Oly have shown continuous improvement in IQ over time?
 
The FZ18 replaces the FZ8 according to the article. It has the same sensor Matsushita 1/2.5 " and Venus III sensor and processor on both cameras.

Seeing that the FZ18 crammed more pixels into the same sensor, I expect the noise problem to be worse or the same, not better. It's quite ugly to my eye, their noise reduction that is.

Give me detail or give me a toy. All these cameras are toys as far as I'm concerned. In the SP550 I chose a toy that I know (the RAW NR = off trick) how to get detail out of.

Steve
jimr said:
The noise issues that the previous Panny's had seems to have been
largely overcome with an apparently newer version of the Venus III
engine coupled with a new sensor that are both found in the FZ 18.
Progress for sure there.

We cannot judge and should not prejudge a camera by what a
manufactuer did before, but must test each camera individualy. Its
progress, and sadly, sometimes regress.

Look at Fuji that went from a wonderful S6000fd with a SuperCCD to
the newer s8000fd WITHOUT a SuperCCD. Go figure.
Can we say the the p&s cameras from Oly have shown continuous
improvement in IQ over time?
Click to expand...
 
Steve Fink said:
In the SP550 I chose a toy that I know (the RAW NR
= off trick) how to get detail out of.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately - and I've really played with turning the NR off in Master and Studio quite a bit now (the only software that allows you do that as the 3rd party ones don't have that), you increase the noise levels tremendously also! I was really turned off with the noise levels in SP-550 images (even at the lowest ISO's) when you turn the NR when converting RAW images. It's these teenie-weenie sensors that are to blame. The larger the pixel, the more light-gathering capabilities it has. The problem is that manufacturers seem to think they can artificially remove the noise - often at the expense of smearing, artifacts, and a loss of that 3-dimensional "you are there" quality that so often causes us to look twice at an image when it's fine.

Good shooting...

Ben

 
I'd suggest you check the Panny forum a view the many sample images made by A Girard, for one.

The FZ 18's IQ is notably superior to the FZ 8 by consensus. The Venus III has been modified and improved. Just follow the discussions. You might also wish to read the full test of the SP 560 mentioned here and then on the same site the full test of the FZ 18.

You "expect"...but the IQ of the FZ 18 is NOT what you expected. It is much better than many dared hope for based upon previous Panny's and the spechs alone. Panny really got its act together on this one.
Steve Fink said:
Seeing that the FZ18 crammed more pixels into the same sensor, I
expect the noise problem to be worse or the same, not better. It's
quite ugly to my eye, their noise reduction that is.

Give me detail or give me a toy. All these cameras are toys as far
as I'm concerned. In the SP550 I chose a toy that I know (the RAW NR
= off trick) how to get detail out of.

Steve
jimr said:
The noise issues that the previous Panny's had seems to have been
largely overcome with an apparently newer version of the Venus III
engine coupled with a new sensor that are both found in the FZ 18.
Progress for sure there.

We cannot judge and should not prejudge a camera by what a
manufactuer did before, but must test each camera individualy. Its
progress, and sadly, sometimes regress.

Look at Fuji that went from a wonderful S6000fd with a SuperCCD to
the newer s8000fd WITHOUT a SuperCCD. Go figure.
Can we say the the p&s cameras from Oly have shown continuous
improvement in IQ over time?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
It's the same tiny sensor! You can either rid noise through ugly noise reduction (smearing) and lose detail or live with it and have noise. It's a matter of physics. It's not an option to have both with such a small sensor.

If I make a purchase, sure I want to believe I made a good purchase. But, I know what I got with the SP550 and what I got with my Sony H2. This class of camera is quite limited to be certain. To say otherwise is looking at their average looking spouse and seeing nothing but beauty.

Finally, I know what diffraction does to ALL small sensor cameras. It's impossible to take a shot what diffraction to come into play. It's real! Take a look at this thread:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1008&message=22520801

Steve
jimr said:
Steve Fink said:
Seeing that the FZ18 crammed more pixels into the same sensor, I
expect the noise problem to be worse or the same, not better. It's
quite ugly to my eye, their noise reduction that is.

Give me detail or give me a toy. All these cameras are toys as far
as I'm concerned. In the SP550 I chose a toy that I know (the RAW NR
= off trick) how to get detail out of.

Steve
jimr said:
The noise issues that the previous Panny's had seems to have been
largely overcome with an apparently newer version of the Venus III
engine coupled with a new sensor that are both found in the FZ 18.
Progress for sure there.

We cannot judge and should not prejudge a camera by what a
manufactuer did before, but must test each camera individualy. Its
progress, and sadly, sometimes regress.

Look at Fuji that went from a wonderful S6000fd with a SuperCCD to
the newer s8000fd WITHOUT a SuperCCD. Go figure.
Can we say the the p&s cameras from Oly have shown continuous
improvement in IQ over time?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
As you probably figured out, we're at different ends of the universe in opinions here and neither will waiver. Each opinion is valid IMO, depending on ones perspective.

I like detail and the ability to control how much I want to keep or not and you like DSLR-like smoothness. Not a problem, that's why there is choices out there.

Steve
Ben Herrmann said:
Steve Fink said:
In the SP550 I chose a toy that I know (the RAW NR
= off trick) how to get detail out of.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately - and I've really played with turning the NR off in
Master and Studio quite a bit now (the only software that allows you
do that as the 3rd party ones don't have that), you increase the
noise levels tremendously also! I was really turned off with the
noise levels in SP-550 images (even at the lowest ISO's) when you
turn the NR when converting RAW images. It's these teenie-weenie
sensors that are to blame. The larger the pixel, the more
light-gathering capabilities it has. The problem is that
manufacturers seem to think they can artificially remove the noise -
often at the expense of smearing, artifacts, and a loss of that
3-dimensional "you are there" quality that so often causes us to look
twice at an image when it's fine.
Click to expand...
 
We all know that the photographer makes all the difference in the world, that and post processing. We also, know that what we see on the screen means little as we are seeing a screen sized image, not an image in print. Pixel peeping aside, I want good prints of my images first, screen sharing second.

That said, the second image in the first link sample is horribly underexposed. It was taken at 9:24 am and it's that underexposed?

None of the shots were taken in difficult conditions. All taken at ISO 100 and almost all taken at the short end of the zoom. I expect the same results with my wife's el-cheapo A530 in those shooting conditions.

Are they decent shots? Sure, but I'm not impressed.
--
Steve

Minds are like parachutes, they only work when they are open - Unknown
 
Steve Fink said:
We all know that the photographer makes all the difference in the
world, that and post processing. We also, know that what we see on
the screen means little as we are seeing a screen sized image, not an
image in print. Pixel peeping aside, I want good prints of my images
first, screen sharing second.

That said, the second image in the first link sample is horribly
underexposed. It was taken at 9:24 am and it's that underexposed?

None of the shots were taken in difficult conditions. All taken at
ISO 100 and almost all taken at the short end of the zoom. I expect
the same results with my wife's el-cheapo A530 in those shooting
conditions.

Are they decent shots? Sure, but I'm not impressed.
--
Steve

Minds are like parachutes, they only work when they are open - Unknown
Click to expand...
 
Nice posting history Jim. It seems that your a Pany guy posting on several non-Pany forums including this one here wher you point to this thread:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=25155168

Jim, You got called out by David as not being a Canon type person. If you're not Canon and not Olympus, you must be trolling all over the place. Can't you just stay in your Pany forum without trolling please?

FWIW, I want competition as it's best for everyone. That's why I buy so manay different manufacturer cameras.
--
Steve

Minds are like parachutes, they only work when they are open - Unknown
 
if it makes you feel better...please call me a troll. Their is one problem. I own a Nikon D40 and not a Panny. Did own a Panny FZ3 years ago and a Canon S30 and a Casio S750 and a Minolta SRT 101 and a Canon AE-1 etc . etc. Yep who am I trolling FOR??? Perhaps and honest comparison across ALL brands would benefit EVERYONE...I could not care less which brand...
Steve Fink said:
Nice posting history Jim. It seems that your a Pany guy posting on
several non-Pany forums including this one here wher you point to
this thread:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1010&message=25155168

Jim, You got called out by David as not being a Canon type person.
If you're not Canon and not Olympus, you must be trolling all over
the place. Can't you just stay in your Pany forum without trolling
please?

FWIW, I want competition as it's best for everyone. That's why I buy
so manay different manufacturer cameras.
--
Steve

Minds are like parachutes, they only work when they are open - Unknown
Click to expand...
 
Steve Fink said:
The FZ18 replaces the FZ8 according to the article.
Click to expand...
In your recent post, you just discredited the author. What makes you think she's right this time? Btw, according to some sources, the FX100 and FZ1x are two new series that 'slot' in the current lineup. This might be true, or not´.
Steve Fink said:
It has the same
sensor Matsushita 1/2.5 " and Venus III sensor and processor on both
cameras.
Click to expand...
I hope you didn't mean this seriously. How can it be the same sensor when not even the mp count match??? Yes, it's the same size and same maker, but it's a completely new design. Matsushita has been busy in the R&D department. They're onto dual layer micro lenses etc. The shot noise of the older FZ wasn't worse tha the competition, maybe Pany improved the noise from the circuits, or and the print.

The Venus III might have the same name, but the output is significantly improved, it might be a completely different engine, but maybe Pany didn't want to draw too much attention to the 'Venus' brand. NR now has 5 settings, and even in the default mode the smearing of the FZ50 is much improved.
Steve Fink said:
Seeing that the FZ18 crammed more pixels into the same sensor, I
expect the noise problem to be worse or the same, not better. It's
quite ugly to my eye, their noise reduction that is.
Click to expand...
I don't know where you have been pointing your eyes since the FZ18 released, try here:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/FZ18/FZ18THMB.HTM

It's no worse than the S5. It's light years better than the H7 & H9, but that isn't a virtue in itself.
Steve Fink said:
Give me detail or give me a toy. All these cameras are toys as far
as I'm concerned. In the SP550 I chose a toy that I know (the RAW NR
= off trick) how to get detail out of.
Click to expand...
In the FZ18 toy this trick is called NR-2 or RAW (btw 2 sec shot to shot...)
 
I hate to burst your bubble Greg, but you can use the same sensor and processor yet increase the MP. The MP is independent of those two. Absolutely research improves things somewhat but we're still talking about physics.

Research doesn't change physics, it's noise and detail or smearing and low noise. Only Sony's R1 that comes with a APS-C size sensor can come close to mathing that of any DSLR for ISO sensitity levels. It failed because it was too expensive to make costing Sony profits.

Until the Kodak High Sensitivity sensor technology proves to be either a success or a failure, today's technology doesn't allow miracles beyond miracles. Take a look at the hopeful future breakthrough:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0706/07061401kodakhighsens.asp

I never knocked the FZ18 in exact use as I never used the camera. I simply know that Panosonic is indeed using the same sensor. There are no smoke and mirrors, see:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/compare_post.asp?method=sidebyside&cameras=panasonic_dmcfz8%2Cpanasonic_dmcfz18%2Cpanasonic_dmcfz50&show=all

This class of camera can't compete with any decent 3x zoom P&S camera as for IQ.

Steve
GregGory said:
I hope you didn't mean this seriously. How can it be the same sensor
when not even the mp count match??? Yes, it's the same size and same
maker, but it's a completely new design. Matsushita has been busy in
the R&D department. They're onto dual layer micro lenses etc. The
shot noise of the older FZ wasn't worse tha the competition, maybe
Pany improved the noise from the circuits, or and the print.
The Venus III might have the same name, but the output is
significantly improved, it might be a completely different engine,
but maybe Pany didn't want to draw too much attention to the 'Venus'
brand. NR now has 5 settings, and even in the default mode the
smearing of the FZ50 is much improved.
Click to expand...
 
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