DavidPisback
Senior Member
Even if a self-confess murdered says that robbery is wrong, that doesn't mean that he's not correct.
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Costco
- Thread starter aciffer
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Phileas Fogg
Senior Member
I have lied.
I have sworn.
I have stolen (a inexpensive toy as a kid).
I have broken traffic laws such as speeding.
I have never cheated on my taxes.
I have never returned any item to any store that was not defective or broken under warranty.
I am not and never will be Saintly.
However none of my bad deeds or careless indiscretions excuse the exploiting of a business policy so that a person can buy and use for however long a product to then return it for full refund or replacement at any time. Is that clear enough for you.
Quite simple two wrongs do not make a right. My wrongs does not excuse EOSMAN of his.
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visit my photo gallery of images from my 10D
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I have sworn.
I have stolen (a inexpensive toy as a kid).
I have broken traffic laws such as speeding.
I have never cheated on my taxes.
I have never returned any item to any store that was not defective or broken under warranty.
I am not and never will be Saintly.
However none of my bad deeds or careless indiscretions excuse the exploiting of a business policy so that a person can buy and use for however long a product to then return it for full refund or replacement at any time. Is that clear enough for you.
Quite simple two wrongs do not make a right. My wrongs does not excuse EOSMAN of his.
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visit my photo gallery of images from my 10D
http://phileas.fotopic.net/c258181.html
Correct me if I'm wrong but you appear to be responding to me.
Your term "under warranty" is exactly the point here. Costco has or had a "warranty" that allowed the OP to return the camera for any reason at any time. It's that simple.
There's nothing wrong with a customer utilizing a store's warranty policy. He didn't exploit anyone.
Your term "under warranty" is exactly the point here. Costco has or had a "warranty" that allowed the OP to return the camera for any reason at any time. It's that simple.
There's nothing wrong with a customer utilizing a store's warranty policy. He didn't exploit anyone.
DavidPisback
Senior Member
And what if I bought all my clothes there, and decided that I'd return them for a full refund every 6 months because they wore out?
I think Lands End would even let me do that. But I don't. Why? Surely you can figure that out, can't you? (Hint: it has something to do with common sense and ethics).
I think Lands End would even let me do that. But I don't. Why? Surely you can figure that out, can't you? (Hint: it has something to do with common sense and ethics).
DavidPisback
Senior Member
PS: The reason lawyers exist, and you end up with all sorts of "legalese" in warranties, etc. is PRECISELY because "people" like EOSman take advantage of those like Costco who give you a "no questions asked" return policy.
But the manager was within his rights to laugh uproariously, and he didn't. I can just imagine the response I'd get if I walked into Calumet and asked for a refund of the $1000 difference on each of our two 5Ds!
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Skip M
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
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'Living in the heart of a dream, in the Promised Land!'
John Stewart
If the product becomes defective, I would bring it in for an exchange. I bought my Dell 30" LCD panel with 3 year warranty. During the 3 year period, if anything goes wrong that affects the functionality of the display, Dell will send me a replacement unit, albeit refurbished most likely.
If Costco gives an equivalent 3 year warranty on the camera, it would be ethical to exchange the defective one for a working one, new or refurbished. This is what the extended warranty for.
The product should not be returned after the initial grace period. It should be exchanged for the same item only if the original purchase was defective or became defective. Many stores will only exchange for the same item once the product passed the 30 day period. Some stores might extend that to 90 days. Of course we can run into some ethical issues too. What if the user dropped it on purpose or damaged it due to misuse?
Again the 30 day return policy should be reasonable enough. After the holiday season, there is always a long line of people returning unwanted gifts. That is quite common around here in the US. Is that ethical?
Some stores allow longer than 30 days because the product might have been purchased before Thanksgiving and returned after the New Year. I would say if the product is unopened, there should be no problem to resale it as new. If it is opened, the store has to sell it as "open box" item at a discount. Many online stores impose any restocking fees up to 15% for non-defective returns to offset the resale loss as the "open box" item. Newegg does that.
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Nelson Chen
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http://NelsonChenPhotography.com/
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Thisjustin
Senior Member
In certain states in the US it is illegal to smoke in your own house or car. That the law, just because someone makes a law or rule about it doesn't make it right. I own my house. i smoke in my house, i own my car, i smoke in my car, deal with it.
patrick c tom
Forum Enthusiast
You know what they should do...let them return any camera anytime...but also make them return the images and their copyrights to Costco since they were "unsatisfied" with the product...if you are truly unsatisfied with the equipment that's a fair trade don't you think...Mathematically there are bound to be a..holes in every group of people...good thing the percentage is low enough to let Costco and Canon survive...
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patrick tom
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patrick tom
tko
Forum Pro
What are you trying to say? That people on the other side of the world have a different set of ethics, so it's OK to follow them? So your ethics should be flexible, and if you find a part of the world that agrees with your actions it's cool? Do you get to pick and choose from each country? How convenient.
Actually, it's very simple to show that while morality may be based on local custom, ethics aren't. Ethics can be very well defined and analyzed, and you can certainly take college classes on it. As a simplified starter, unethical behavior can be defined as acting in a way the benefits yourself while hurting others, and in a way that you would not want others to act. So, you think "do until others . . " isn't pretty much universal?
When you say that ethical behavior changes around the world, I think you mean that that circumstances in one locality may force behavior that would appear unethical in another. However, the basic rules of ethics didn't change, only the circumstances. It's easy to imagine situations where theft is the logical, moral action, but that doesn't mean people get to steal under any circumstances.
Actually, it's very simple to show that while morality may be based on local custom, ethics aren't. Ethics can be very well defined and analyzed, and you can certainly take college classes on it. As a simplified starter, unethical behavior can be defined as acting in a way the benefits yourself while hurting others, and in a way that you would not want others to act. So, you think "do until others . . " isn't pretty much universal?
When you say that ethical behavior changes around the world, I think you mean that that circumstances in one locality may force behavior that would appear unethical in another. However, the basic rules of ethics didn't change, only the circumstances. It's easy to imagine situations where theft is the logical, moral action, but that doesn't mean people get to steal under any circumstances.
cyainparadise
Veteran Member
Can you imagine if Costco sold cars under the same return policy. You buy the car drive it around for a year, get dings in it, and after a year or two, you return it for a full refund because it lost resale value.
I, for one, am glad that Costco changed their policy. n many cases, the electronic products that Costco buys is not directly from the manufacturer. Costco sells Sony goods, as they have for years, but I know years ago, Costco (in the USA) did not buy them from Sony US, but from a distributor in Canada. Sony America would not repair items bought from Costco under warranty and Costco even had a sign in the store to that effect, and the Sony repair center had a sign that they would not repair products bought from Costco. That is why Costco began their return policy, because if they didn't, no one would buy from them. If a customer returned a product, Costco couldn't return it to the manufacturer or distributor, but had to unload the goods to someone who would take it for pennies on the dollar.
I used to sell Serengeti Eyewear and Costco wanted to buy them from Corning, who made the glasses, but the sales manager refused to sell to them. Costco looked around for a distributor who would sell to them, and looked to make a quick profit on the deal.
If I were the Costco manager, I would of also refunded the member's membership fee and ban them from becoming a member again.
I, for one, am glad that Costco changed their policy. n many cases, the electronic products that Costco buys is not directly from the manufacturer. Costco sells Sony goods, as they have for years, but I know years ago, Costco (in the USA) did not buy them from Sony US, but from a distributor in Canada. Sony America would not repair items bought from Costco under warranty and Costco even had a sign in the store to that effect, and the Sony repair center had a sign that they would not repair products bought from Costco. That is why Costco began their return policy, because if they didn't, no one would buy from them. If a customer returned a product, Costco couldn't return it to the manufacturer or distributor, but had to unload the goods to someone who would take it for pennies on the dollar.
I used to sell Serengeti Eyewear and Costco wanted to buy them from Corning, who made the glasses, but the sales manager refused to sell to them. Costco looked around for a distributor who would sell to them, and looked to make a quick profit on the deal.
If I were the Costco manager, I would of also refunded the member's membership fee and ban them from becoming a member again.
James Bostwick
Well-known member
Yeah, kinda. I meant that you wouldn't see so much disagreement with the principle he outlined. But either way, you got it. Back to lurking...
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James Bostwick
swnyc
Forum Enthusiast
You got your mommy to help you write your reply. Now, that's much better. You get a star.
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You said one thing that's certainly true:
"That is why Costco began their return policy, because if they didn't, no one would buy from them."
Exactly.
I never shop at Costco. Why should I when I can get the same things for less somwehere else and not have to pay for a "membership"?
I wonder if as many people would be so indignant about the OP returning the camera if the store had been a WalMart? They also have a "Satisfaction Guaranteed" policy, with no time limit. So does Kmart.
"That is why Costco began their return policy, because if they didn't, no one would buy from them."
Exactly.
I never shop at Costco. Why should I when I can get the same things for less somwehere else and not have to pay for a "membership"?
I wonder if as many people would be so indignant about the OP returning the camera if the store had been a WalMart? They also have a "Satisfaction Guaranteed" policy, with no time limit. So does Kmart.
Phileas Fogg
Senior Member
Believe what you want. Costco never expected people to return used items any time in the future for no other reason than they are used. You can sugar coat it all you want but it is unethical.
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visit my photo gallery of images from my 10D
http://phileas.fotopic.net/c258181.html
So, what you're saying is that Costco never had any intention of living up to their return policy? They only used it as a marketing ploy to sucker more fools that might actually believe it?
Wow, either Costco has a bunch of idiots working there or a bunch of unethical deceivers. Who knows, maybe it's both. All the more reason to not shop there. Thanks for the warning.
Wow, either Costco has a bunch of idiots working there or a bunch of unethical deceivers. Who knows, maybe it's both. All the more reason to not shop there. Thanks for the warning.
So you are letting the policy set by Costco determine your own ethics?
Do you not have a "moral compass" of your own that you rely on to tell you right from wrong?
Don
http://www.pbase.com/dond
What an inane arguement. You're either clueless and are missing the entire point or you just like to argue. Either way, you're doing a fine job of making yourself look like a fool.
bikingradio
Well-known member
Man oh man, you people just don't get it.
Let's try this:
Some car companies include a 100,000 mile/ten year guarantee on the drive train in their cars. It's included because it's part of the price you pay for the car. They also include a guarantee on all parts of the car for a certain amount of time. That's also included in the price of the car.
If you buy a toaster at WalMart for ten bucks, it comes with a guarantee of satisfaction, with NO time limit.
When you buy something at Costco it comes with a guarantee. That guarantee is included in the price of the item. At the time the OP returned his 5D the guarantee was for any reason with no time limit. Costco set that policy. Costco has to abide by it according to law. If they don't, they are breaking store policy and the law. A store cannot offer a particular guarantee and then forget about it when a customer wants to utilize it. That would be fraud.
Apparently society believes it's reasonable to hold stores to their policies and guarantes. That's why there are laws to enforce those policies and guarantees.
It's like when you go into a store and see an item marked at a certain price, but when they ring it up it has a higher price. They HAVE TO sell it to you for the lower marked price. Otherwise, it's false advertising. In the state I live in it's a felony for a store to charge you the higher price.
I have worked in small and large stores and people were overcharged all the time. Most people didn't even realize it because they didn't check their receipts. Do you think the store cared that they were overcharging customers? Nope! I know they didn't care because I brought up the overcharges to management and they just shrugged and brushed me off.
That's why there are now laws that regulate what stores can and cannot do. A few years ago there was a news story about how it cost people "millions of dollars " per year in Oregon due to illegal overcharges by stores in that state alone.
Moral compass you say? Yeah, what about the moral compass of the stores? Do they seek out the people they overcharged and give them their money back? Do they lower prices for everyone to make up for the fact that they overcharged a bunch of customers? Do they donate the extra, illegally obtained money to a charity? Do they even admit to overcharging anyone?
Here's another example. There are three Winco food stores in the town I live in. I only shop in two of them because of their locations. There are certain items that I regularly buy. There are several identical items that have different prices depending on which Winco I go to. One of those items is almost double what the other Winco charges. Is that ethical? They're the SAME company in the SAME town. Why the disparity in prices? Because they have no "moral compass". They're a business, they don't care about morals. They care about profit. Obviously the manager of the higher priced store thinks he/she can charge more, just because.
EOSman paid for the satisfaction guarantee with no time limit when he bought the 5D. Costco included it in the price of the 5D. Costco charges people just to come into the store ("membership"). Costco sucks.
Let's try this:
Some car companies include a 100,000 mile/ten year guarantee on the drive train in their cars. It's included because it's part of the price you pay for the car. They also include a guarantee on all parts of the car for a certain amount of time. That's also included in the price of the car.
If you buy a toaster at WalMart for ten bucks, it comes with a guarantee of satisfaction, with NO time limit.
When you buy something at Costco it comes with a guarantee. That guarantee is included in the price of the item. At the time the OP returned his 5D the guarantee was for any reason with no time limit. Costco set that policy. Costco has to abide by it according to law. If they don't, they are breaking store policy and the law. A store cannot offer a particular guarantee and then forget about it when a customer wants to utilize it. That would be fraud.
Apparently society believes it's reasonable to hold stores to their policies and guarantes. That's why there are laws to enforce those policies and guarantees.
It's like when you go into a store and see an item marked at a certain price, but when they ring it up it has a higher price. They HAVE TO sell it to you for the lower marked price. Otherwise, it's false advertising. In the state I live in it's a felony for a store to charge you the higher price.
I have worked in small and large stores and people were overcharged all the time. Most people didn't even realize it because they didn't check their receipts. Do you think the store cared that they were overcharging customers? Nope! I know they didn't care because I brought up the overcharges to management and they just shrugged and brushed me off.
That's why there are now laws that regulate what stores can and cannot do. A few years ago there was a news story about how it cost people "millions of dollars " per year in Oregon due to illegal overcharges by stores in that state alone.
Moral compass you say? Yeah, what about the moral compass of the stores? Do they seek out the people they overcharged and give them their money back? Do they lower prices for everyone to make up for the fact that they overcharged a bunch of customers? Do they donate the extra, illegally obtained money to a charity? Do they even admit to overcharging anyone?
Here's another example. There are three Winco food stores in the town I live in. I only shop in two of them because of their locations. There are certain items that I regularly buy. There are several identical items that have different prices depending on which Winco I go to. One of those items is almost double what the other Winco charges. Is that ethical? They're the SAME company in the SAME town. Why the disparity in prices? Because they have no "moral compass". They're a business, they don't care about morals. They care about profit. Obviously the manager of the higher priced store thinks he/she can charge more, just because.
EOSman paid for the satisfaction guarantee with no time limit when he bought the 5D. Costco included it in the price of the 5D. Costco charges people just to come into the store ("membership"). Costco sucks.
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