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OT: Why can't anyone spell anymore?

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No wonder we fought for our independence from Britain. They can't spell color properly, and can't punctuate properly, either.

;)
Bryan Siverly said:
Bryan Siverly said:
I can only speak for American usage, but I would doubt things would
be different for the country that invented the language.
Click to expand...
Hmm, it seems the Brits DO have a slightly different style for
punctuation, and I learned something tonight. Thanks for making me
look it up. Here's what I found:

http://www.writersblock.ca/tips/monthtip/tipmay96.htm

Yeah, boring for most, but I find this kind of thing very
interesting. :)
--
Bryan
http://www.siverly.net
Click to expand...
--The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.netPhotography -- just another word for compromise
 
Where I come from (Canada) all punctuation is tucked inside the quotation marks..."like this!" Unless you are writing academic papers where everything goes all to hell when quotes within quotes can look ..."'like this'".

But newspapers, magazines and most other publications tend to encompass punctuation, I heard, because it is harder for typos to occur. So, I (we) treat it like you said (spoke) the period, question mark or exclaimation mark.

At my job we write news releases etc. using the Canadian Press Style Book which is where I looked this up.

Cheers,
JL
RolandKorg said:
Where's he from?

In British English (correct me if i'm in error), i believe the
punctuation comes After the quote marks, no?

I believe that's true, at least with periods.

Daniel said, "I'm leaving now".

A little help here, please. How's it go in the U.K.?
Click to expand...
 
I think that making an effort to achieve a certain level of precision in one's use of language is a sign of respect for one's audience. We should all aspire to speak and write clearly and precisely.

However, we must also accept that we are human beings who are prone to mistakes. Some of us are better at catching and correcting mistakes than others. Moreover, some of may have less inherent ability or education than others.

There is a large middle ground between careless drivel and 100% correct prose. In a forum such as this, a certain amount of candor and spontaneity is encouraged, so we shouldn't expect people to spend huge amounts of time fine tuning their writing. I think most people do make an effort and fall somewhere in this middle ground.

--Ron ParrFAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.htmlGallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
Tom Melanson said:
I am only a high-school graduate, but if I paid for a college
education that left me bereft of the ability to spell, I would
surely SUE--somone!
Click to expand...
You don't really think that our colleges attempt to teach people how to spell, do you. I taught high school English for 25 years and will admit that those issues you raise in your post were seldom dealt with to a very high level of success there either. Sure I see the mistakes you speak of, but will honestly admit that they don't much bother me. I know what the posters are trying to get across and know the time constraints we all operate under given the amount of information we want to dispense with these boxes and these keyboards. I am forever amazed at just how well the whole thing works. So many of us from so many backgrounds and so many different locations and countries, yet we communicate so well. It is really quite amazing.

Problems of spelling and grammar are surely more noticeable to me than many, surely, but I overlook them and suggest most of us do the same. To get caught up in them is to live in a dark world of lost opportunities for learning and variety. That's how I see it.
--Dave Lewis
 
Bryan,
Thanks for this link. I DID find it interesting.

As an engineer, I find myself punctuating exactly the way writersblock suggests is appropriate for technical writing, which is distinctly different from "proper" American English.

Not to start the blow torch again, but your original example of "casual writing" is not a quote at all, but a phrase set off by quotation marks for the purpose of emphasis. I wonder what the rules here are, and I really don't have a clue.
Bryan Siverly said:
Bryan Siverly said:
I can only speak for American usage, but I would doubt things would
be different for the country that invented the language.
Click to expand...
Hmm, it seems the Brits DO have a slightly different style for
punctuation, and I learned something tonight. Thanks for making me
look it up. Here's what I found:

http://www.writersblock.ca/tips/monthtip/tipmay96.htm

Yeah, boring for most, but I find this kind of thing very
interesting. :)
--
Bryan
http://www.siverly.net
Click to expand...
 
RolandKorg said:
Did i catch it? Whatever.

I agree with you, wholeheartedly, that both the educational system
and educational expectations have been in a steady state of
decline. I'm not sure since when - i believe it has something to do
with cable television, but that's another rant.

Computers, surely, do not help us. The widespread use of email,
taken as such a casual form of communication, has rendered writing
skills obsolete. Speed is the key now, and people can no longer be
bothered with such artifacts as punctuation, spelling, composition.

I can only imagine how bad it'll be in forty (ten?) years, when you
try to scold your grandchild about his spelling, and he replies,
"Jeez, Pops. Relax. It's only wristmail."
Click to expand...
It is obvious you haven't been in touch with today's young people. They are smarter, better educated in so many broad approaches to life, more experienced in daily living, quicker, more poised and astute, better disciplined and often more motivated, overall just a better lot than they ever were before. You and many others on here have been reading too many newspapers and listening to too many politicians who have made "the dark dismal education systems of America" a political issue. Both my wife and I have worked in education all our lives and can tell you for good and sure our children are way way ahead of what we were at the same age. If our language has worked itself around to accommodate the fast pace of the modern world then good for it.--Dave Lewis
 
Critter1 said:
Not to start the blow torch again, but your original example of
"casual writing" is not a quote at all, but a phrase set off by
quotation marks for the purpose of emphasis.
Click to expand...
Since Tom's obviously an American, then American usage rules should apply. The American rule is for commas and periods to always be inside the quotes. I was rather surprised about the British differences, however.

Here's another brief link underlining the rule:

http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000105.htm ;--Bryan http://www.siverly.net
 
The example given in 105 is not a good one, since the comma punctuation would have been part of the quote anyway, and therefore it makes sense to keep it inside the quotation marks.

I never understood why commas not part of the quote should be included inside the quotation. It doesn't seem logical, and no one has been able to explain it other than say this is the rule.

In this case, I'd rather go for clarity rather than "correctness", although clarity is now in the eye of the reader. Some could argue that "incorrect" is "not clear". (or is it "not clear.")?
Bryan Siverly said:
Critter1 said:
Not to start the blow torch again, but your original example of
"casual writing" is not a quote at all, but a phrase set off by
quotation marks for the purpose of emphasis.
Click to expand...
Since Tom's obviously an American, then American usage rules should
apply. The American rule is for commas and periods to always be
inside the quotes. I was rather surprised about the British
differences, however.

Here's another brief link underlining the rule:

http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000105.htm
--
Bryan
http://www.siverly.net
Click to expand...
 
them people can't spelll wort a damnn. it jst dryes me crezy!!!
Tom Melanson said:
Is it me, or do you notice how bad spelling has become in this
country? Does anyone care?
waste=trash
waist= part of your body between the ribs and the hips.
waiste? Duh! Got me here.
wait=to stay in anticipation of some event.
waite=Duh! Not in any dictionary of which I am familiar.
their=possessive plural.
they're=contraction of "they are"
its=possessive
It's=contraction of it is
And the grammatical and spelling "hits just keep on comin'".

We're not talking big words here. Just normal, everyday American
English.
It is getting so bad that it becoming unclear as to just what a
poster is trying to communicate. (Not only here, but at every
discussion group on the Net)
Is this the end our educational system has come to?
(Or, more correctly: Is this the end to which or educational system
has come?)
BTW: The dangling participle (not principal, principle or
particle..) apparently is now acceptable in "casual writing".
This is not a troll. I am just embarrassed at the level to which
Americans' writing ability has sunk. And yes, whenever I make a
grammatical or spelling mistake, I dearly hope someone will point
it out, because nobody is perfect, and nobody is too old to learn.
I am only a high-school graduate, but if I paid for a college
education that left me bereft of the ability to spell, I would
surely SUE--somone!
Rant over. :-0
We now continue with our regularly scheduled (and ofttime
misspelled) program....
(or for those in the British Isles, programme....)
Click to expand...
 
Since when has that been a rule?
Bryan Siverly said:
Tom Melanson said:
BTW: The dangling participle (not principal, principle or
particle..) apparently is now acceptable in "casual writing".
Click to expand...
Isn't it interesting that Mr. Stickler here doesn't know the simple
punctuation rule that commas and periods always go inside the
closing quotation mark?

And notice he made the same error twice so he can't say they were
"typo's." :)
--
Bryan
http://www.siverly.net
Click to expand...
 
DMillier said:
Since when has that been a rule?
Click to expand...
According to the classic Complete Plain Words by Sir Ernest Gowers, the general British practice is to put the punctuation in its logical place.

In dialogue, it would normally go inside the quotes, but in the kind of expression mentioned below it would go where it is, at the end after the closing quote marks.
DavidMillier said:
Bryan Siverly said:
Tom Melanson said:
BTW: The dangling participle (not principal, principle or
particle..) apparently is now acceptable in "casual writing".
Click to expand...
Isn't it interesting that Mr. Stickler here doesn't know the simple
punctuation rule that commas and periods always go inside the
closing quotation mark?

And notice he made the same error twice so he can't say they were
"typo's." :)
--
Bryan
http://www.siverly.net
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Sadly, Dave, it's not always so true.

If you examine some of the most popular posts on these forums (particularly the flames and troll posts), as soon as a good argument gets underway many posters seem to lose not only their grammar and spelling but also their reason (and their manners!).
Dave Lewis said:
Member said:
I am only a high-school graduate, but if I paid for a college
education that left me bereft of the ability to spell, I would
surely SUE--somone!
Click to expand...
You don't really think that our colleges attempt to teach people
how to spell, do you. I taught high school English for 25 years and
will admit that those issues you raise in your post were seldom
dealt with to a very high level of success there either. Sure I see
the mistakes you speak of, but will honestly admit that they don't
much bother me. I know what the posters are trying to get across
and know the time constraints we all operate under given the amount
of information we want to dispense with these boxes and these
keyboards. I am forever amazed at just how well the whole thing
works. So many of us from so many backgrounds and so many different
locations and countries, yet we communicate so well. It is really
quite amazing.

Problems of spelling and grammar are surely more noticeable to me
than many, surely, but I overlook them and suggest most of us do
the same. To get caught up in them is to live in a dark world of
lost opportunities for learning and variety. That's how I see it.

--
Dave Lewis
Click to expand...
 
You speak from the bottom of my heart =)

No seriously, I'm not a native english or american. In fact I'm german and english is my second language.

Yet I try to spell correctly and try to phrase my words into understandable sentences g Sure, in matters of impatience and lack of time I do use abbreviations, but I think those are not the point.

I keep telling my friends that the english language is neither "weaker" nor "less powerfull" than any other language. It's all a matter of the writer's choice of words. Exactly there is the point. Here on the net we do use a particular amount of technical terms. The rest is basically a subset of the english language which we use to communicate. The very level of this communication hardly differs from talking about the weather. So only a few hundred words are used.

What makes me wonder is the fact that people doesn't seem to bother about spelling those "few" words right shrugs

BTW I'm 36 years old and at times I do feel as a 60+ as well. Maybe I think to much about stuff like this ;-)---John- It's good if you know your way. But it's better to walk the way you know.
 
How's your German, French, etc. ?

Many people from around the world post here and the common language is English. Do you expect them (including myself) to use a perfect English ?

You can't tell from the User name who is a well educated American intellectual and who is a farmer from Bosnia. So what you're expecting ?

I read similar posts as yours all over the net but I found them pretty strange. If this was an all American/British site, I'd agree. But we have lots of international multi users and you can't really expect from them to use perfect spelling. Just relax, enjoy this site and if you want to read perfect English, get yourself a good book and read it. :)
Just my 2 cents.
Tom Melanson said:
Is it me, or do you notice how bad spelling has become in this
country? Does anyone care?
waste=trash
waist= part of your body between the ribs and the hips.
waiste? Duh! Got me here.
wait=to stay in anticipation of some event.
waite=Duh! Not in any dictionary of which I am familiar.
their=possessive plural.
they're=contraction of "they are"
its=possessive
It's=contraction of it is
And the grammatical and spelling "hits just keep on comin'".

We're not talking big words here. Just normal, everyday American
English.
It is getting so bad that it becoming unclear as to just what a
poster is trying to communicate. (Not only here, but at every
discussion group on the Net)
Is this the end our educational system has come to?
(Or, more correctly: Is this the end to which or educational system
has come?)
BTW: The dangling participle (not principal, principle or
particle..) apparently is now acceptable in "casual writing".
This is not a troll. I am just embarrassed at the level to which
Americans' writing ability has sunk. And yes, whenever I make a
grammatical or spelling mistake, I dearly hope someone will point
it out, because nobody is perfect, and nobody is too old to learn.
I am only a high-school graduate, but if I paid for a college
education that left me bereft of the ability to spell, I would
surely SUE--somone!
Rant over. :-0
We now continue with our regularly scheduled (and ofttime
misspelled) program....
(or for those in the British Isles, programme....)
Click to expand...
 
Bryan Siverly said:
Tom Melanson said:
BTW: The dangling participle (not principal, principle or
particle..) apparently is now acceptable in "casual writing".
Click to expand...
Isn't it interesting that Mr. Stickler here doesn't know the simple
punctuation rule that commas and periods always go inside the
closing quotation mark?

And notice he made the same error twice so he can't say they were
"typo's." :)
--
Bryan
http://www.siverly.net
Click to expand...
--Sincerely,Y. ChachadShoot The World http://www.pbase.com/chachads
 
I think someone took a dump in your cornflakes because if your peeves are little things like this you have some serious issues dude.

If spelling is that big an issue to you then put down your camera and become a English teacher.

See if you can spot the mistake I made in that paragraph....
Bryan Siverly said:
Nicholas J said:
You knew exactly what I was saying so stop your whining about
little typo's.
Click to expand...
Yeesh, I know somebody probably took a pee on your cornflakes, but
isn't your spelling of "typos" somewhat ironic? ;)

Amazing that you hit on a second of my peeves... people who confuse
plurals with possessives. Keep 'em coming, guy. You're on a roll.

Do try and smile a little and don't take everything in life so
seriously.
--
Bryan
http://www.siverly.net
Click to expand...
 
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