I despise challenge 14

This bleeding heart cr@p is getting old. First off, it's just a picture. It's not like she said hey lay there and be pitiful and I'll give you a bottle of vodka or something. It's a subject. And to those that are saying that this is different from war photos, or of the photo of the vietnamese girl running naked from a air strike because these were taken by "pros". Okay, well then under this theory the Kennedy assassination film taken by a normal citizen is exploitive and distastful, and oh all those people in New York that had video cameras out on Sept 11th should've shut them off and gotten out the concent forms before hitting the record button! Give me a break. A great deal of the footage shot from that day was by John Q. Public with his handycam. This footage helped in bringing a nation so large closer to the horror that happened that day and thus bringing us together.

Now I'm sure the picture of the hobo..er bum...er homeless gentleman, dwelling challanged, or whatever the PC name for him is, will not have the same effect on the nation, but it is part of life. Good or bad. We need to all get over ourselves if this is going to get too many people all worked up.

I saw a picture of snails on this forum that was pretty cool, next are we going to have PETA say that this was exploiting the snails?

As far as the challenges go, I haven't been in one yet, but they are not for sport. I think they are for us to become better. Nobody is winning a cash prize, or a trip by taking a picture of a bum, and I don't think the person taking the offending picture was snickering when she took it.

It's a picture! It tells a story. What that story is is for the viewer to decide. I could be sorrow, sickness, relaxation, it could be joy from not having to pay taxes but whatever it is it sparks thought, and that is good art.

I'm rambling now, so I'll close.

Let the nasty replies begin.....

Alfred said:

regards

Alfred

mortal said:

1ofUs! (Cindy or SarahD) said:

You know, because a person is homeless doesn't mean they don't have
the same dignity or morals or standards as anybody else.
Sarah

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--
Scott A.
-----------
F707

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--
http://www.pbase.com/destinyx1

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Alfred said:

not the subject - fotojournalism but using poor people for
"sports"!!! Don´t be mad at me - and the fotos are good in a
tecnical way - but this is just not right.

We are fortunate enough to be relatively wealthy, we normally look
the other way when we see people like them on the street. It feels
just not right to use them - unwillingly and unknowing for our
hobby and as a way to win a contest.

So don´t be mad at me - you all are a great people and I don´t want
to criticise you - but this subject just seems not right to me.

regards

Alfred
--
http://www.pbase.com/destinyx1

Click to expand...

--Jim FuglestadWhy simply live and let live? Live and help live. http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

Alfred said:

not the subject - fotojournalism but using poor people for
"sports"!!! Don´t be mad at me - and the fotos are good in a
tecnical way - but this is just not right.

We are fortunate enough to be relatively wealthy, we normally look
the other way when we see people like them on the street. It feels
just not right to use them - unwillingly and unknowing for our
hobby and as a way to win a contest.

So don´t be mad at me - you all are a great people and I don´t want
to criticise you - but this subject just seems not right to me.

regards

Alfred
--
http://www.pbase.com/destinyx1

Click to expand...

--Jim FuglestadWhy simply live and let live? Live and help live. http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

Exploitation? Not in the images I am looking at...

I thought Kim's images were very impressive...It is obvious to me that she really has a connection with some of these people. Her work would make an excellent book...They give the "homeless" an identity of sorts. You realize these aren't just the "homeless"...these are real people with real stories that just need a hand. Tremendous work!

Amy's image was just incredible...It told a story that I have heard/seen before, but one I needed to hear/see again. A photographer was trapped in a store during the 9/11 attack...the lady asked him why he was taking pictures at a time like that....his response was "so we will never forget". Amy's image was not taken to win a contest...it was taken to tell a story that many people don't want to hear.

These images are a constant reminder that the world isn't all rosey and there are people who need our help...which is a very good thing regardless of who gets paid or wins a contest....

Alfred - After reading all your posts I can see you are just a kind person wanting the right thing even though there is a wide range of opinions about just what is "the right thing."

At first I was a little hurt by your comments and of some of the others. This is the first time I've ever stuck my neck out and entered a public forum like this. Upon reflection, I can see your discomfort and I am sorry you are being put through this.

Please don't be put off this forum by the reaction that followed your comments. This has been a good, if uncomfortable, thing. I hope Amy is not too hurt and continues to post her wonderful (IMO) images. Kim

Alfred said:

Alfred

kimr55760 said:

I didn't realize some of the readers of this forum were so tender
when I posted my photos. I have worked shoulder to shoulder with
these folks for fifteen years. I think of many of them as friends
and I have probably hundreds of photos like these - just like you
have taken hundreds of your friends. Where is the difference?

They are photos of the wonderful faces of my friends - not
exploitation. I have my camera out at work a lot and many enjoy it.
Many love it! I don't take their picture without permission and I
give them a print. We have an organized photo shoot every year at
Christmas and give out cards and stamps to send the photos to
family.

I won't post any more of these on this forum. I have a bad taste in
my mouth now. You make it seem cheap. Not everyone, but enough of
you to startle me.

I don't pretend that it is great photojournalism, FG. Don't look
away, Alfred. I wanted to show you the warmth in their eyes and
tell you a story about their generosity. That's all.
Kim

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--
http://www.pbase.com/destinyx1

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Thanks for that story Jim. It made reading this thread really worthwhile.

kev

Shutter said:

It was just called to my attention that I missed the part of your
thread about the homeless guy on crutches. Let me tell you about
Jeremiah. This story is 100% the truth. I saw saw this man in
downtown minneapolis. I saw him dig into the garbage and find his
lunch. I walked over to him and gave him $10. He was extremely
surprised that someone came up and gave him money without him
asking for it. You should have seen his reaction when he realized
it was a $10, not a $1. He said he was going to buy listerine. I
didn't quite hear him, so asked "what are you going to get?", he
thought I was judging him and changed his answer to coffee. I
said, "Hey, I don't care what you buy, get what you need". He
replied again "okay then, I'll get listerine". He then introduced
himself as Jeremiah, and said he was just going to call me James
Dean (black leather coat, jeans, black leather boots, etc...). We
talked for quite a while and it was a very personal and touching
exchange for me. So, I wanted to remember him so I took a few
pictures of him. When I was home that night editing my pics, my 3
and 4 year old jumped on my lap (as they frequently do when I'm
editing pics) and asked "who is that, daddy?". I told them it was
Jeremiah, and he was homeless. Of course, they didn't quite
understand "homeless" (so I thought). Well, that night, as we were
saying our prayers as usual, where they fight me and joke around,
etc..... well, that night they sat down and out of the blue my
oldest prays "and help Jeremiah get a house", and my daughter
chimes in "yeah, he needs to live somewhere!" And now Jeremiah is
prayed for every night right after grandma and grandpa. I've never
asked them to, or reminded them to. They just do it.

Thanks for cheapening it for me.

fg said:

Shutter. said:

So, if there is a riot and I take pictures of it, that's not okay?
Or is it just not okay if its a homeless person? What about police
beating someone? What's okay? What's not? To say that you hate
photojournalism to me means that you must choose to want to live in
a shell and not get real news. Do you watch the news?

Click to expand...

Alfred's point was that people seemed to be using homeless people
as their way into the gallery. Those photographers are using their
images to get little pats-on-the-back
look-at-me-i'm-a-serious-photographer points from the fellow forum
members.

Comparing these silly challenge entries to riot coverage or police
brutality is a bit of a stretch. None of those images were
reporting such injustices. All I know

Shutter. said:

And besides, Alfred, did you ask Kim or Amy if they asked for
permission? Oh, guess not. What's that saying about
assumptions......?

Click to expand...

Kim's photos are a decent portrait of people she knows well and has
conveyed their personality to the rest of us... the one of the guy
with the crutches with the kids in the background is exploitive,
even if someone got his permission. It shows no depth of
character. It's a pure oneliner gawkfest.

--
-fg

Click to expand...

--
Jim Fuglestad
Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

Click to expand...

-- http://www.pbase.com/amadeusnz/galleries

Amen... Nee

Before all of this "political correctness" came to pass, there have been some truly great photojournalists, who usually shot (their often graphic) images in black and white. As in Life magazine and National Geographic...I can only HOPE to take photos half as wonderful as the ones in those publications. Books such as'The Family of Man' or 'The Family of Children' are wonderful, insightful, candid photos of the human condition.

Amy, Kim and Shutter...you have nothing to be ashamed of...in fact, I think you should be very proud of your efforts...too bad it offends some, but as others have pointed out, it's a bit hypocritical to be offended by photos of homeless people, if you also watch the news on TV, read magazines or watch talk shows! Photojournalism is a whole lot harder than simply taking snapshots...it is a challenging field of endeavor to artistically photograph people candidly in real life situations. Too bad some think it is exploitative, because it gives us insight into ourselves as members of the human race. Yes, there are sick and demented Peeping Tom types who photograph subjects in very demeaning ways in order to exploit them in selfish, self-serving ways, but I see none of that here.

Sorry Jim (and even Alfred), I know you both want this thread to die...but having been without internet access for the past 3 days, I really wanted to be able to chime in on this subject. Jim, your challenge theme choice is a very worthy one, and I wish more folks would take it to heart as a real challenge...as if they really worked for a newspaper and had a story to cover! Real life situations are what journalism is all about...--my galleries are @: http://www.pbase.com/rdavis , http://www.imagestation.com/album/4292021613 , http://206.106.32.22/gallery/?fuseaction=my

Deeg said:

This bleeding heart cr@p is getting old. First off, it's just a
picture. It's not like she said hey lay there and be pitiful and
I'll give you a bottle of vodka or something. It's a subject. And
to those that are saying that this is different from war photos, or
of the photo of the vietnamese girl running naked from a air strike
because these were taken by "pros". Okay, well then under this
theory the Kennedy assassination film taken by a normal citizen is
exploitive and distastful, and oh all those people in New York that
had video cameras out on Sept 11th should've shut them off and
gotten out the concent forms before hitting the record button!
Give me a break. A great deal of the footage shot from that day
was by John Q. Public with his handycam. This footage helped in
bringing a nation so large closer to the horror that happened that
day and thus bringing us together.

Click to expand...

These are all historic milestones. None are great works of art either. They are the consequence of being in the right place at the right time capturing images of momentous events. To compare that, to one person's picture of a random homeless person is giving too much credit to that picture.

Deeg said:

It's a picture! It tells a story. What that story is is for the
viewer to decide. I could be sorrow, sickness, relaxation, it
could be joy from not having to pay taxes but whatever it is it
sparks thought, and that is good art.

Click to expand...

It doesn't tell a story. It's a one liner. A bad photo. Kim's pictures tell a story.

-fg---fg

I found your photoessay, "Lives of Quiet Generosity," to be, by far, the most affecting and poignant of all the entries. I saw nothing exploitive in it but, rather, it reflected the inherent dignity of its subjects.

---John

Tom L. said:

Zip, this is exactly the point that has been in my head since
someone said that a Challenge photo wasn't in the same league as
"real" photojournalist's work. Somehow pictures of death camps
published in Time magazine are righteous and a photo of a homeless
man posted on a website is exploitative.

Click to expand...

Tom: How many deathcamps do you walk by every day?

I think there is a difference. Even if it's not exploitive, it's in bad taste. It's not the great image people are making it out to be.
---fg

John Forish said:

I found your photoessay, "Lives of Quiet Generosity," to be, by
far, the most affecting and poignant of all the entries. I saw
nothing exploitive in it but, rather, it reflected the inherent

Click to expand...

For the record I agree.
---fg

Jimmy Chen said:

Fg, you have cheapen it only because you dont have a full
understanding of the challanges and mistaken the photos placed by
Shutter as place holders of the theme as someone's entries ...
He placed both of the photos there as place holder for the Eligible
and Exhibition folders.

They belong to Jim and no one else and are NOT challange entries ...

Click to expand...

At this point I really don't care about weather or not something is a challenge entry. It was clarified early that it was not Amy's image.

I am interested in disscussing why it's really not a good example of photojournalism, and why it leaves a bad taste in some people's mouth.

I would argue Jim cheapened his own experience by a: photographing the guy and b: posting it here.

-fg---fg

Shutter said:

You're a special kind of fella, ain't ya?

You tout your 1.7 years here..... how come no one has heard of you?
Has anyone seen anything from you?

Don't condescend to us. You don't know the first thing about us or
where we are as photographers.

Are you this arrogant in real life?

Click to expand...

Hey man, she asked. I hardly purport to be an expert. Just letting you guys know where I'm coming from. I have been through the ringer on these issues many times before. You don't hear/see from me as much because I am usually only interested in more sociological issues like these, and they're pretty rare these days.

I only know what I read and see here, and I've given my opinon as we are all entitled to do, right?

Next time I'm in MN (soon possibly) I'll buy ya a beer and we can discuss. Find out if I'm as arrogant in person...

-fg

Shutter. said:

fg said:

1ofUs! (Cindy or SarahD) said:

First of all, this is Sarah now! not Cindy lol.

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tricky, you two...

Shutter. said:

Shutter. said:

The way I see it, if ya put a picture up on the web, it's open to
critique. Arguably, it was put up as an example of photo
journalism, so I am discussing it in that broader sense.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't really say arguably. What's the point of putting an icon
photo for the challenge if it doesn't represent the challenge theme?

Click to expand...

Right, and I was saying it was not an example of photojournalism.

Shutter. said:

Shutter. said:

We'll see if my interests intersect with that of the next
challenge. Overall i guess I don't really see the need for it for
myself.

Click to expand...

The challenges don't have to necessarily be what you're interested
in. That's why they are challenges, to kind of "broaden your
horizons," at least that's my take. Unless you've already mastered
it all?

Click to expand...

Well, I havn't mastered it all (; But I did spent 4 years studying
it in university and it's been a pretty big part of my life since
then (not professionally though, unfortunatly) so,yeah, I pretty
much have covered most of this before. It reminds me alot of my
first semester.

In fact I can remember one of my "photo 101" classes where a bunch
of students walked in with pictures of homeless people and a
similar argument ensued . Over the years we learned how to deal
with our subjects in a more in depth manner. Just trying to impart
some of my experience. Take it or leave it.
--
-fg

Click to expand...

--
Jim Fuglestad
Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

Click to expand...

---fg

fg said:

Deeg said:

This bleeding heart cr@p is getting old. First off, it's just a
picture. It's not like she said hey lay there and be pitiful and
I'll give you a bottle of vodka or something. It's a subject. And
to those that are saying that this is different from war photos, or
of the photo of the vietnamese girl running naked from a air strike
because these were taken by "pros". Okay, well then under this
theory the Kennedy assassination film taken by a normal citizen is
exploitive and distastful, and oh all those people in New York that
had video cameras out on Sept 11th should've shut them off and
gotten out the concent forms before hitting the record button!
Give me a break. A great deal of the footage shot from that day
was by John Q. Public with his handycam. This footage helped in
bringing a nation so large closer to the horror that happened that
day and thus bringing us together.

Click to expand...

These are all historic milestones. None are great works of art
either. They are the consequence of being in the right place at the
right time capturing images of momentous events. To compare that,
to one person's picture of a random homeless person is giving too
much credit to that picture.

Click to expand...

fg said:

fg said:

It's a picture! It tells a story. What that story is is for the
viewer to decide. I could be sorrow, sickness, relaxation, it
could be joy from not having to pay taxes but whatever it is it
sparks thought, and that is good art.

Click to expand...

It doesn't tell a story. It's a one liner. A bad photo. Kim's
pictures tell a story.

-fg
--
-fg

Click to expand...

At the time of vietnam, that picture was just another vietnamese girl running, years later it is an image that captured a time...You could also look at the "war on homelessness" as a issue that may not be as prevelant later. It's a page for a history book that is being written everyday.

By the way, I'm not talking about any particular image on the challange, I'm speaking in generalities. One thing I find offensive is for you to be so down on someone else's image... You could say it's overexpose, underexposed, out of focus, but to say people are giving too much credit to it and that it is a "one liner" is pretty self righteous. Who are you to judge? If it speaks to someone, then it is art to that person. If it technically sucked, that's open to criticism on those points, but what your saying is more of an attack on the person behind the camera.

You guys out there getting all bent out of shape and offended by a picture of a homeless guy better just go back into your homes and turn on Barney or something, because the outside world is not always pretty. Either deal with it, or do something about it.

kimr55760 said:

I won't post any more of these on this forum. I have a bad taste in
my mouth now. You make it seem cheap. Not everyone, but enough of
you to startle me.

Click to expand...

Kim,

I stand by my previous post that your photoessay is head and shoulders above everything else posted for this challenge. The depth of compassion in your story is touching, humbling, and inspiring.

When I say that your entry is "head and shoulders" above all of the others I don't mean that the other entries were bad -- just that yours is so much better.

I was also touched by Fremiet's depiction of uniqueness in the ordinary, and cUrVe's (hope I got the capitalization right) artistry and serendipity, just to cite two others.

Please continue to post your work on our forum. Your true artistry is in your perception and your compassion.

And if justice is served (IMHO and may I be so bold to predict) please expect to host the next challenge.

---John

Jim,

Thanks for an inspiring and thought-provoking challenge. I'm only sorry, as I believe you are, that the real dialogue about photojournalism started so late in the challenge -- and so negatively. Based on what you posted in your initial introduction to the challenge, I was looking forward to quite a few interesting discussion threads. Alas, but it came to this.

This is the first challenge I have entered since discovering (and joining this forum earlier this year.

I didn't enter the macro challenge because I couldn't think of anything to photograph that hadn't already been done better by earlier entries.

I didn't enter the sports challenge because I didn't happen on to any sports in wintertime Indiana during the challenge period.

To date my true enjoyment of the challenges has been to view the other entries and see all of the marvelous work. I hope you can continue to enjoy them, and enter them, for the pleasure and learning experiences they can provide to you and to us all.

Can't we all just get along?

---John

John,

where is Huntertown IN? I'm up in the South Bend area, and this spring would've been a good time to have a winter themed challange...

Deeg

John Forish said:

Jim,

Thanks for an inspiring and thought-provoking challenge. I'm only
sorry, as I believe you are, that the real dialogue about
photojournalism started so late in the challenge -- and so
negatively. Based on what you posted in your initial introduction
to the challenge, I was looking forward to quite a few interesting
discussion threads. Alas, but it came to this.

This is the first challenge I have entered since discovering (and
joining this forum earlier this year.

I didn't enter the macro challenge because I couldn't think of
anything to photograph that hadn't already been done better by
earlier entries.

I didn't enter the sports challenge because I didn't happen on to
any sports in wintertime Indiana during the challenge period.

To date my true enjoyment of the challenges has been to view the
other entries and see all of the marvelous work. I hope you can
continue to enjoy them, and enter them, for the pleasure and
learning experiences they can provide to you and to us all.

Can't we all just get along?

---John

Click to expand...

I did not yet read through all the replies.

First, I think it's rather obnoxious to ASSUME I did not get permission for the photo I took (or for anyone else who took a similar photo). You have no idea my interaction with my subject what-so-ever.

If you knew anything about me at all, you would know that me and my husband have frequently bought homeless people a slice of pizza. We are always the ones to stop and chat with them. We never brush them off and always give them money, or better yet, our time. We've spent time bringing them blankets and hats and gloves in winter time. Fine for you to attack my character, but why not GET A CLUE first.

I have already pulled my photo from the challenge. I do not wish to be the subject, or have any of my photos the subject of controversy. If you even KNEW ME Alfred, at all, you would know that getting permission for me is something I always seek to do, so quite frankly, HOW DARE YOU.

Good luck to you all in the challenge... and thanks to any of you who defended me.

Amy--beauty is really in the LCD/EVF of the beholder http://www.something-fishy.com/photography

SFishy and Faye, you both had wonderful entries in my opinion. I really wish you would keep yours in. I didn't think that either of you were in any way exploiting homeless people, or people with breast cancer. Your images were done in good taste. And I really hate it when people "take their ball and go home" because of what somebody else has said! Soon we'll have nobody left because everyone will be afraid of the intent of the photo, the message it sends, and whether anybody will find it offensive. If you like your entry, and it fits the theme in your eyes, then enter it!!! In this case, leave them in! Taking out your pictures is no way to make your point. Really, it just weakens the situation.
Does this make any sense? Sorry if I'm ranting,

Sarah--CindyD or SarahD (dpreview won't let us each have an account!)If one of us is laughing, and the other one isn't, one of us must be wrong...

Sarah,

Thank you.

I took my photo out because I will enjoy it more without all the bullsh*t attached to it of this incredibly arrogant Alfred who thinks he has the right to judge each of us. I will keep the photo in my own portfolio, and the story that goes with it in my heart and mind.

Amy

1ofUs! (Cindy or SarahD) said:

SFishy and Faye, you both had wonderful entries in my opinion. I
really wish you would keep yours in. I didn't think that either of
you were in any way exploiting homeless people, or people with
breast cancer. Your images were done in good taste. And I really
hate it when people "take their ball and go home" because of what
somebody else has said! Soon we'll have nobody left because
everyone will be afraid of the intent of the photo, the message it
sends, and whether anybody will find it offensive. If you like your
entry, and it fits the theme in your eyes, then enter it!!! In this
case, leave them in! Taking out your pictures is no way to make
your point. Really, it just weakens the situation.
Does this make any sense? Sorry if I'm ranting,
Sarah
--
CindyD or SarahD (dpreview won't let us each have an account!)

If one of us is laughing, and the other one isn't, one of us must
be wrong...

Click to expand...

--beauty is really in the LCD/EVF of the beholder http://www.something-fishy.com/photography