I despise challenge 14

Alfred Eder said:

Great you do this Jimmy. But reefs all around the world are dying
because of global warming. Consider this! It should be well known
that lowering global warming is necessary. There has even been a
treaty to lower it...guess who is the greatest producer of GW?
Right the USA. Guess who resent the treaty!?

Click to expand...

Hehee. I have gotten involved with this very same topic many times in the ML/NG of my reef hobby. Many of us pay great attention to this subject. GW is one reason why the ocean are heating up and killing corals, however, a bigger reason is tourist trips and industial waste ...

But as everything else, there are always so many sides to the same story. While the treaty is a start, it really doesnt do cr*p to the problem it is trying to solve ... Asking US to cut back 5% of its CO2 output, driving up production cost for most US firms, while allowing China be listed as a 3rd world country and they can produce all the CFC they want to sell to EU ... How much more idotic do you think a treaty like that can be?

Bush has his reasons for not being part of the treaty. Will he stick to his words is yet to be seen.

jc

Sorry again - I did not want to hurt you personally - I like you and you have helped me several times to improve in my hobby. I am sorry that I used the wrong words. Despise is to harsh I know this now. Understand also that my mother language is german...

I understand your point, please accept also my opinion. As I said before technically the images are good.

Sorry to hurt your feelings in expressing my feelings - I overshot the aim I know this now. Hope we will stay on friendly terms

Regards

Alfred

Shutter said:

Where in that initial post does it say anything about the subject
being unsuspecting people?

Alfred said:

not the subject - fotojournalism but using poor people for
"sports"!!! Don´t be mad at me - and the fotos are good in a
tecnical way - but this is just not right.

We are fortunate enough to be relatively wealthy, we normally look
the other way when we see people like them on the street. It feels
just not right to use them - unwillingly and unknowing for our
hobby and as a way to win a contest.

So don´t be mad at me - you all are a great people and I don´t want
to criticise you - but this subject just seems not right to me.

regards

Alfred
--
http://www.pbase.com/destinyx1

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--
Jim Fuglestad
Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

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--www.pbase.com/destinyx1

Thanks Danny. Actually i didn´t think that I would provoke such reactions...

regards

Alfred

nzmacro said:

I'm not even going to read all the comments here Alfred. Just want
to say, if thats how you feel then you stick by your guns. Your
ethics may be different to some but you are certainly entilted to
them. Different strokes for different folks. I tend to agree with
you myself and its not something I could do either but it is life
unfortunatly. I'll stick to flowers and bugs and nature macro.

All the best Alfred ;-)

Danny.
--
Macro, what a world.
.............................
http://www.macrophotos.com

Click to expand...

--www.pbase.com/destinyx1

Man, is it hot in here or what? Don't really wanna get involved in this one, but let me just remind everyone that posted to this thread: It's strong feelings and outright opinionated responses like these that make this the best forum on the net!

Over the short time that I've been here, I've seen people that are mainstays here and do not seem inclined to EVER lease ;-) and I've seen some leave angry over this controversy or that argument. While it's too bad that some people get their feelings hurt, generally we're all friends here. And we ALL love photography, right?

I didn't realize some of the readers of this forum were so tender when I posted my photos. I have worked shoulder to shoulder with these folks for fifteen years. I think of many of them as friends and I have probably hundreds of photos like these - just like you have taken hundreds of your friends. Where is the difference?

They are photos of the wonderful faces of my friends - not exploitation. I have my camera out at work a lot and many enjoy it. Many love it! I don't take their picture without permission and I give them a print. We have an organized photo shoot every year at Christmas and give out cards and stamps to send the photos to family.

I won't post any more of these on this forum. I have a bad taste in my mouth now. You make it seem cheap. Not everyone, but enough of you to startle me.

I don't pretend that it is great photojournalism, FG. Don't look away, Alfred. I wanted to show you the warmth in their eyes and tell you a story about their generosity. That's all.
Kim

Alfred learned how not to state a 'humble' opinion when that is his intent

We learned the stories behind the photographs

The most self-righteous, accusatory and condescending wound up with egg on their faces

We probably should give Alfred some thanks for starting it all

Shutter. said:

My God, photojournalism is a part of daily lives. Of course, we
could always have our news spoon fed to us by state sponsored news
agencies. Or, we could look at the world through comic books or
sketches or something. Oh, maybe we should just read fairy tales,
even print news is too offensive.

So, if there is a riot and I take pictures of it, that's not okay?
Or is it just not okay if its a homeless person? What about police
beating someone? What's okay? What's not? To say that you hate
photojournalism to me means that you must choose to want to live in
a shell and not get real news. Do you watch the news?

Click to expand...

Wow. I have to admit I am a little taken aback by this discussion. Photojournalism is telling a story with photos rather then words. And in most cases it's news coverage or that type of coverage. Which is invasive at some level, to someone, always.

The ethical debates in photojournalistic circles and outside of those circles are ongoing as it should be. I think back to some of the most powerful images taken in my life time. Remember the one of the fireman carrying the dead baby in Oklahoma City after the bombing? An absolutely incredible photo, I think it won the Pulitzer. Extraordinarily controversial. That single image conveyed to me the entire tragedy. 1000 words or 10000 words and endless hours of TV coverage did not and could not tell the story the way that one image does. Remember the photo of young John Kennedy saluting as his fathers casket passed? Exploitive? I don't think so. Invasive? One could argue. Did it tell the story? Absolutely, that's what photojournalism at it's best does.

One of the winning photos in this years NPPA photojournalism contest(spend a couple of hours looking at these-wow!);

http://www.nppa.org/bestofpj/copyright.html

is very controversial. Even in the contest judging itself. It's a powerful, thought provoking and disturbing photo. It depicts the sexual assault on a woman by a bunch of drunks at a Mardi Gras. What they chose to do is show the image but pixilated the woman's face. As with most great photos it was a matter of being in the right place at the right time. The photographer had climbed a fire escape to get out of the way of what had become a drunken riot and this all took place below him. There was nothing he could do to help her, though the image was turned over to the police to help them track down the perpetrators.

http://www.nppa.org/bestofpj/ethics.htm (warning: if you are sensitive to this the image is in the article)

"This is one powerful picture," said Brian Storm, MSNBC director of multimedia. "It is tough to look at, but it is about what journalism is. We have a responsibility for caring for the victim and to show people the reality of this horrible act." I think that sums up my position.

If this kind of photography is not something you like then my suggestion is to not do it but it is as valid a form of photography as any other. When I was younger, it's what I used to do. I freelanced but worked on assignment for various publications. Now that I am back into photography I find that I am not as drawn to doing that kind. I don't have any ethical problems I just don't have as much interest. Though I have had several shots run in the local papers in the few months that I have had my 707. Theater promo stuff, but there is still some fun in seeing my work published like that.

--Anorfir

Jimmy, Thanks for not buying into this idotic treaty. The usa would be fools to sign such ignorant legislation. Many scientists do not even agree that we (humans) are even partly responsible for GW. IMO GW is junkscience blaming humans for what is occuring naturally. It amazes me how all these doomsy type "theorys" are pushed as fact in the media.

later,
joe

Jimmy said:

Hehee. I have gotten involved with this very same topic many times
in the ML/NG of my reef hobby. Many of us pay great attention to
this subject. GW is one reason why the ocean are heating up and
killing corals, however, a bigger reason is tourist trips and
industial waste ...

But as everything else, there are always so many sides to the same
story. While the treaty is a start, it really doesnt do cr*p to the
problem it is trying to solve ... Asking US to cut back 5% of its
CO2 output, driving up production cost for most US firms, while
allowing China be listed as a 3rd world country and they can
produce all the CFC they want to sell to EU ... How much more
idotic do you think a treaty like that can be?

Click to expand...

I'm afraid it's true for me, too. (Of course being cameraless for two of 'em didn't help). The challenges have had three major appeals for me. 1) A chance to see what a number of others think of my work 2) A chance to share in an exciting group exhibition (and yes, I like competing) 3) Most important, the chance for significant critique about what works and doesn't work in photos I think are worthwhile.

All three of these are in decline. I get more (and more useful) critique on PhotoSIG. This forum doesn't provide a lot of really helpful critique, with a few notable and generous-minded exceptions. And as a group we've gotten pretty argumentative and very competitive. All of which is very much too bad, because STF is a community and I'm a caring member of that community.

Eric

Shutter wrote:
It is no longer

Shutter. said:

about sharing our photography and our ideas. It must be about
winning. That's too bad. They've just lost a lot of interest for
me.

Jim

http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

Click to expand...

--EricF707 http://www.pbase.com/erichocinc

nzmacro said:

I'm not even going to read all the comments here Alfred. Just want
to say, if thats how you feel then you stick by your guns. Your
ethics may be different to some but you are certainly entilted to
them. Different strokes for different folks.

Click to expand...

Yes, stick to your guns Alfred.

And remember that every other visual/audio medium besides photography 'uses' images worse than what youve seen in the STF Challenge for 'sport' or should i say...for financial gain.
To name a few:

Every newspaper in the world uses images/stories of the misfortune of others to 'sell' more papers.

Time/Life(or simular) publishes stories on the misfortunate(or reality in their case) in 3rd world countries to 'sell' more copys....hmmm...wonder why they call it "Life" magazine?????

Also...most daytime talk shows (Jenny, Oprah etc)...and there are tons more.....all using/exploiting tragedys/misfortunate/disabled...etc....for sport...or should i say...higher ratings. And yes....they all have a happy ending don't they. Well, most of them anyways.

................awareness

--cheersZip - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -BFS: been there had that...got the t-shirtSticker Status: ON...but on upsidedownPie Chute: UnCorked Lens Cap: No dangle at any angle128mem stick: lostReal Name: Michael C - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Isn't that IRO not IMO?

Joe L Olson said:

later,
joe

Jimmy said:

Hehee. I have gotten involved with this very same topic many times
in the ML/NG of my reef hobby. Many of us pay great attention to
this subject. GW is one reason why the ocean are heating up and
killing corals, however, a bigger reason is tourist trips and
industial waste ...

But as everything else, there are always so many sides to the same
story. While the treaty is a start, it really doesnt do cr*p to the
problem it is trying to solve ... Asking US to cut back 5% of its
CO2 output, driving up production cost for most US firms, while
allowing China be listed as a 3rd world country and they can
produce all the CFC they want to sell to EU ... How much more
idotic do you think a treaty like that can be?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

What a bunch of wimps... That guy would have posed in several positions gladly for one bottle of ripple.

You people are just soooooo goood and moral. Makes me sick...--Scott A. -----------F707

BTW that was not a reply to shutter. Just a general reply to this incredibly absurd and stupid thread. --Scott A. -----------F707

Now what do I say? LOL I admit that you did indeed hit a raw nerve. It is a long story and I won't bore you with it, but, yes, I am sensitive to the direction I see in society today which seems to me to be away from compassion and toward greed. However, this morning, in the light of day - albeit another gray and rainy one here in the Pacific Northwest - I feel much less sensitive and offended. One explanation that I thought of last night regarding my wording about "a golden" society is that I chose those words because of the picture which shows an elegant gold decorated wall behind the man who is sleeping in the doorway. Other than that, I feel a truce is in order. I'll listen to what you have to say and you can listen to me. And, as you say, we both will probably stay where we are as to our opinions but at least we will have heard another point of view. Thanks for the compliment on my post. Ann

Joe Olson said:

Ann,

I am sorry, but I neglected to tell you that in my opinion, your
particular post was one of the finest in this thread. And, you
have every right to be upset with me since I of course was using
your comment to my own "assumption".

Of course, I do that to make a point. I know sometimes that upsets
people, but if somebody thinks about something from a different
viewpoint, I have obtained my objective even if their mind is not
changed.

joe

Joe L Olson said:

No disrespect intended, but I notice you did not refute my
"assumption". Feel free. No animosity on this end. Didn't mean
to "pick" on your particular post. I just pulled it off of my
memory.

Of course, I feel its a little (insert non incitefull adjetive) to
assume that just because some have much, they are somehow
"obligated" by others to redistribute their "wealth" according to
someones wishes who hasn't bothered to EARN the wealth. I think it
is an awesome privelege to belong to a society that allows such
disparity. At least both parties have a choice!

I certinally did not intend to infer that you were a "communist".
That is why I specificly avoided copying your post. I merely used
what you had mentioned as a reference as to where many of the posts
are headed in a very PC type direction. Which, by the way I don't
believe is all bad, just mostly.

regards,
joe

Ann Chaikin said:

Joe L Olson said:

Oh, and there was a
good one about the "unfairness" of a golden society allowing people
to just sleep on the streets. Oh how could we? I could feel the
sickness of political correctness (pure and simple communisim) just
seething underneith some of the posts.

Click to expand...

Excuse me!!! You are making a big assumption here in your comment
on my post. Frankly, it pisses me off that you "see the sickness
of political correctness (pure and simple communism)" simply
because it bothers me that we have such a wide disparity between
the wealth of some and the poverty of others. A bit arrogant of
you it seems to me. It is much easier to call somebody names than
it is to listen to what they have to say. You have absolutely no
idea from my post what my political opinion is except that I object
to the fact that we can have people with billions of dollars,
yachts, fleets of cars, and conspicuous consumption while others
are homeless. Did I say anything about what kind of government we
need?

--
formerly known as PT Kitty > ^..^

http://www.pbase.com/ptkitty/galleries

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Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--formerly known as PT Kitty > ^..^

Zip, this is exactly the point that has been in my head since someone said that a Challenge photo wasn't in the same league as "real" photojournalist's work. Somehow pictures of death camps published in Time magazine are righteous and a photo of a homeless man posted on a website is exploitative.

Nobody got paid for taking the latter...

It is very simple - nobody does anything for free - there is ALWAYS some hope of a benefit to themselves - be it monetary, emotional, physical, etc... I go to work because I get money in return. I kiss my wife before we part ways in the morning because it puts a smile on my face and I like that. It (usually) puts a smile on her face too. And I like that even more.

I think Jim probably sleeps better at night knowing he took a moment to learn about the plight of another human being and knowing he has a terrific picture immortalizing that encounter so that he will never forget it. If he doesn't already, he should also feel good about enlightening at least a handful of us who have seen his work.

'Real' photojournalists do it for the money, the satisfaction of creating art, the acclaim, the adrenaline rush, the challenge, voyeurism, or any of an infinite selection of other reasons. Text journalists are no different. Authors that amalgamate their life's experiences to create 'fictional' ones do it for the same reasons.

The one thing all of the above have in common is the hope of presenting an audience with a new perspective on something they may not have seen before and informing them about it.

I would say the Challenge fits this bill quite nicely.

Tom L.

ZipperZ said:

nzmacro said:

I'm not even going to read all the comments here Alfred. Just want
to say, if thats how you feel then you stick by your guns. Your
ethics may be different to some but you are certainly entilted to
them. Different strokes for different folks.

Click to expand...

Yes, stick to your guns Alfred.
And remember that every other visual/audio medium besides
photography 'uses' images worse than what youve seen in the STF
Challenge for 'sport' or should i say...for financial gain.
To name a few:
Every newspaper in the world uses images/stories of the misfortune
of others to 'sell' more papers.
Time/Life(or simular) publishes stories on the misfortunate(or
reality in their case) in 3rd world countries to 'sell' more
copys....hmmm...wonder why they call it "Life" magazine?????
Also...most daytime talk shows (Jenny, Oprah etc)...and there are
tons more.....all using/exploiting
tragedys/misfortunate/disabled...etc....for sport...or should i
say...higher ratings. And yes....they all have a happy ending don't
they. Well, most of them anyways.

................awareness

--
cheers
Zip
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
BFS: been there had that...got the t-shirt
Sticker Status: ON...but on upsidedown
Pie Chute: UnCorked
Lens Cap: No dangle at any angle
128mem stick: lost
Real Name: Michael C
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Click to expand...

--DSC-F707Sticker Orientation: OFFpbase gallery - http://www.pbase.com/lyncht3As a Public Service Announcement: The STF Photo Challenge can be found at http://www.stfchallenge.com/

You know, because a person is homeless doesn't mean they don't have the same dignity or morals or standards as anybody else.
Sarah

mortal said:

What a bunch of wimps... That guy would have posed in several
positions gladly for one bottle of ripple.
You people are just soooooo goood and moral. Makes me sick...

Click to expand...

--CindyD or SarahD (dpreview won't let us each have an account!)If one of us is laughing, and the other one isn't, one of us must be wrong...

Indeed... that is most likely true for many of these people. I actually didn't mean to attack homeless people. My post was a kneejerk reaction to all the posts condemning that picture of the homeless guy on the stairs.

If anyone thought that guy was exploited in some way, then I hope they don't watch any tv, movies, news or read any magazines. I am just tired of all the "perfect" people in the world these days telling everyone what they should say or do. And this thread is just another example of that. Everything is harassment or insensitive or not politically correct.

There wasn't anything whatsoever wrong with that entry. I don't even participate in these challenges and it still really ticked me off.

1ofUs! (Cindy or SarahD) said:

You know, because a person is homeless doesn't mean they don't have
the same dignity or morals or standards as anybody else.
Sarah

Click to expand...

--Scott A. -----------F707

Do you think that something gets allright just because it happens everywhere?

regards

Alfred

mortal said:

1ofUs! (Cindy or SarahD) said:

You know, because a person is homeless doesn't mean they don't have
the same dignity or morals or standards as anybody else.
Sarah

Click to expand...

--
Scott A.
-----------
F707

Click to expand...

--www.pbase.com/destinyx1

It was not you that I meant. Just wish I could put Pandora back into the box.

Alfred

kimr55760 said:

I didn't realize some of the readers of this forum were so tender
when I posted my photos. I have worked shoulder to shoulder with
these folks for fifteen years. I think of many of them as friends
and I have probably hundreds of photos like these - just like you
have taken hundreds of your friends. Where is the difference?

They are photos of the wonderful faces of my friends - not
exploitation. I have my camera out at work a lot and many enjoy it.
Many love it! I don't take their picture without permission and I
give them a print. We have an organized photo shoot every year at
Christmas and give out cards and stamps to send the photos to
family.

I won't post any more of these on this forum. I have a bad taste in
my mouth now. You make it seem cheap. Not everyone, but enough of
you to startle me.

I don't pretend that it is great photojournalism, FG. Don't look
away, Alfred. I wanted to show you the warmth in their eyes and
tell you a story about their generosity. That's all.
Kim

Click to expand...

--www.pbase.com/destinyx1

Alfred, I have given my viewpoint quite frankly. That is where I stand and I will not expand upon it any further. I think there are other forums on the internet that are better suited for this type of discussion anyway. You do have the right to state your opinion and I will respect that.

I probably shouldn't have added my two cents since it is probably better that this thread just fades away...

Alfred said:

Do you think that something gets allright just because it happens
everywhere?

Click to expand...

--Scott A. -----------F707