Reading mode: Light Dark

Cheap Studio lighting? Maybe...

Go to last post
Okay. I COMPLETELY understand what you are saying. I am also very familiar with the illusion you linked to. It is commonly referred to as the "classic spirit method" and has been used in haunted houses, freak shows, magic tricks and motion pictures for well over a century.

From what I understand of the "Scene Machine", though, is that it has to do with reflective properties of the background that the image is projected onto. If you look at the screen from anywhere other than EXACTLY through the camera lens, you are looking from an improper angle so the image is not reflected back to you, thus you no see la image. I believe the purpose of the upwards pointing projector and the 45 deg glass in front of the lens is not to combine the images and you have explained, but to put the lens at the exact angle of reflection from the screen. That is how it was explained by the salesdude.

Anyhoo, feel free to end the conversation if I am rambling needlessly. I wouldnt be surprised in the least that that's what I'm doing.

GageFX
 
BKKSW wrote:
snip
BKKSW said:
I'm giving some thought to trying to procure a
used thrown away rear projection screen set and see if I can use
the screen (or make it bigger) and projector unit to make a rear
projection background and to heck with the mirrors.. I think I'll
spend an afternoon going to tv repair shops and leave some
requests..
Click to expand...
Might be worth it, but I'm betting the screen for the rear projection deal will be more expensive than the front projection approach. Plus, your studio will need to be twice as large depending on the lens used to project? Either way, interesting enough to toy with a bit. I'll see what stuff I can find this week, I recall seeing various projection lenses and the like online and in some surplus catalogs I get. We should both do some searching as I know one can buy various screen materials in large sizes, though I think front projection materials would be easiest to deal with. I've also seen muslin and other raw background material available in bulk.

snip
BKKSW said:
There are no tubes. They have just a 110v socket
which takes one of those newer type bulbs with the built in
ballast. This is why I think they would be perfect for the
daylight bulbs I'm using now. I kinda think the reflector is
important though, I'd like one ready made to copy from if I was
going to make it. The surface and design/curve of the reflector is
usually matched to the bulb and use..
Click to expand...
Yes, I saw the images, but they're still bent tubes? :-) I just wondered if anyone had a better name for 'em. I thought the ballast was separate from the reef forum reading, but could be mistaken. I thought the reflector looked like a simple 180* curve. I can't think why it'd need to be different as it likely averages well enough bouncing about the tubes... I suppose it might be more parabolic than truly circular to focus and even the output, but that's not too hard to figure out when bending the first one and observing where the light goes... My guess is that a frosted diffuser might be best to even them out if there exists a problem. Probably sanding some plexi on one side would work nicely to scatter the light. Wonder how these or similar would work with a softbox to increase the size of the light source?
BKKSW said:
Your right, the element of surprise might be what would have kept
him alive.. Now Tom will have to work that much harder, or maybe he
loves a challenge :)
Click to expand...
I think Tom is just too much a gentleman to be chasing wily prey like Mackey around... Although, Brian, has his very good points. :-) (Unlike me he does as he says promptly -I still need to send him something for a good turn he did me.)
 
gagefx said:
Okay. I COMPLETELY understand what you are saying. I am also very
familiar with the illusion you linked to. It is commonly referred
to as the "classic spirit method" and has been used in haunted
houses, freak shows, magic tricks and motion pictures for well over
a century.
Click to expand...
Yup, that's the deal. Very old trick. I think one can trace roots back to the 1800s maybe much earlier. Most of the good stuff was figured out eons ago... :-) Although, we're still learning to best implement a lot of it as technology makes it possible.
Rembvrijn said:
From what I understand of the "Scene Machine", though, is that it
has to do with reflective properties of the background that the
image is projected onto. If you look at the screen from anywhere
other than EXACTLY through the camera lens, you are looking from an
improper angle so the image is not reflected back to you, thus you
no see la image. I believe the purpose of the upwards pointing
projector and the 45 deg glass in front of the lens is not to
combine the images and you have explained, but to put the lens at
the exact angle of reflection from the screen. That is how it was
explained by the salesdude.
Click to expand...
The "reflector" combiner, etc. must be at 45* to project the image on the same plane as the camera and screen, I can understand that. Otherwise, the subject would leave shadows on the projected background...

Well, you can't have it both ways now... :-) Does the image appear on the background when observing it from near the camera(a few degrees of viewing angle like an LCD screen on a laptop) or MUST one look through the exact center of the device to see the projected background exactly as the camera does? If the first way, the combiner is reflecting the image onto the screen. If the latter, the image is produced on the combiner, which I can't really see working properly, as I think it'd have to be ground and that'd not allow the image of the subject to pass through properly? I think it is probably a case of a very narrow viewing angle because the screen material is likely a "microprismatic" type designed to reflect the maximum amount of light back at the source in order to increase apparent brightness. I'll admit this a LOT of conjecture and 2 minutes in a room with the device and a flashlight or laser pointer would yield oodles of answers... :-)
Rembvrijn said:
Anyhoo, feel free to end the conversation if I am rambling
needlessly. I wouldnt be surprised in the least that that's what
I'm doing.
Click to expand...
Not at all. Every bit of info you provide more clearly focuses the issue.(Ouch!) 'Sides, I'm not the type to be truly upset if I make a mistake, I thrive on 'em... :-) Anything you think of would be good to hear as you saw it in person. You did say in an earlier post you could see the image projected on the background so I think it's probably a case of a narrow viewing angle due to the screen type being used to maximize image brightness. "Sales dudes" are often not entirely the most reliable "witnesses"... ;-) One requires more knowledge of selling than physics to be a good salesman. I'm not running salespeople down, but only the best really understand their products at all. By understand, I mean it in the same way that while one may operate an automobile one does not necessarily "understand" how it works. Millions of people prove a similar point every day on computers. :-)

If nothing else, this is an interesting problem.
 
rear projection on a transparent screen is my guess. This way there is no shadow from the subject either.
Gerald M. Payne said:
Beats me how they project it onto the subject without it being
visible, but I'll go look... The trick must be in the background
converting some wavelength to visible?
Click to expand...
--TonyK
 
TonyK_in_Texas said:
rear projection on a transparent screen is my guess. This way
there is no shadow from the subject either.
Click to expand...
If you look further in one of my posts in this thread you'll see an image of the device and it's quite obvious it's a front projection system. The image is projected in alignment with the lens so the camera sees the same angle as it's projected. It's pretty "cool" all in all... :-)
 
Oh yeah... "microprismatic". And yes, the image on the screen did have a very narrow viewing angle. You could see that there was an image on the screen from off angle, but it was very faint.

One last thing, this salesman was a person who specializes in knowing this product. It was a Best Buy "salesman" - we all know how much THEY know.

GageFX
Gerald M. Payne said:
Well, you can't have it both ways now... :-) Does the image appear
on the background when observing it from near the camera(a few
degrees of viewing angle like an LCD screen on a laptop) or MUST
one look through the exact center of the device to see the
projected background exactly as the camera does? If the first way,
the combiner is reflecting the image onto the screen. If the
latter, the image is produced on the combiner, which I can't really
see working properly, as I think it'd have to be ground and that'd
not allow the image of the subject to pass through properly? I
think it is probably a case of a very narrow viewing angle because
the screen material is likely a "microprismatic" type designed to
reflect the maximum amount of light back at the source in order to
increase apparent brightness. I'll admit this a LOT of conjecture
and 2 minutes in a room with the device and a flashlight or laser
pointer would yield oodles of answers... :-)
Gerald M. Payne said:
Anyhoo, feel free to end the conversation if I am rambling
needlessly. I wouldnt be surprised in the least that that's what
I'm doing.
Click to expand...
Not at all. Every bit of info you provide more clearly focuses the
issue.(Ouch!) 'Sides, I'm not the type to be truly upset if I make
a mistake, I thrive on 'em... :-) Anything you think of would be
good to hear as you saw it in person. You did say in an earlier
post you could see the image projected on the background so I think
it's probably a case of a narrow viewing angle due to the screen
type being used to maximize image brightness. "Sales dudes" are
often not entirely the most reliable "witnesses"... ;-) One
requires more knowledge of selling than physics to be a good
salesman. I'm not running salespeople down, but only the best
really understand their products at all. By understand, I mean it
in the same way that while one may operate an automobile one does
not necessarily "understand" how it works. Millions of people
prove a similar point every day on computers. :-)

If nothing else, this is an interesting problem.
Click to expand...
 
Brian Mackey said:
Here ya go :)

Brain -
Click to expand...
I found three of the lights in my local Walmart today.. I snatched them up and asked them to find me three more from other stores.. I sure wish they had them on the stands vs. floor mounting.. But I can mount them on the walls, or make up some sort of holder..

BKKSW
 
Wow! good job, tom meeks is going to hate both of us now :)

let us know if you have any issues with them as was posted in the ther forum.

brian
BKKSW said:
Brian Mackey said:
Here ya go :)

Brain -
Click to expand...
I found three of the lights in my local Walmart today.. I snatched
them up and asked them to find me three more from other stores.. I
sure wish they had them on the stands vs. floor mounting.. But I
can mount them on the walls, or make up some sort of holder..

BKKSW
Click to expand...
-- http://mywebpages.comcast.net/mackey135/njdigitalservices.htm 'I have discovered digital photography' Livin life at 5 megapixels!
 
You found 3???? ARRRGGGHHH!!!!!

By the way, they are rated at 5000K. If you can give me a 50x50 patch of white that was shot in RAW and brought in without any color processing, I can analyze the RGB mix for you.

This evening I'm going to be testing the effects of using the Kodak Wratten CC 05M filter with the flourescents that I'm using to give the lights a bit more warmth for portraits if desired.

My ultimate goal is to find a filter that gives me nearly identical RGB values in RAW whites without any color balancing at all so that little or no color correction post-processing would have to be done... just adjust the 'zones' in Curves for 'pop'. :)

Tom
BKKSW said:
Brian Mackey said:
Here ya go :)

Brain -
Click to expand...
I found three of the lights in my local Walmart today.. I snatched
them up and asked them to find me three more from other stores.. I
sure wish they had them on the stands vs. floor mounting.. But I
can mount them on the walls, or make up some sort of holder..

BKKSW
Click to expand...
 
Tom -

Will do Tom, but it will have to wait until after I move at the end of the month. My new home is almost finished and everything is know in boxes and the such.. I haven't even opened them, just added to more boxes.. Sometime in May I'll be done and make the sample you want..Maybe by then I can find three more..

BKKSW
Tom Meeks said:
By the way, they are rated at 5000K. If you can give me a 50x50
patch of white that was shot in RAW and brought in without any
color processing, I can analyze the RGB mix for you.

This evening I'm going to be testing the effects of using the Kodak
Wratten CC 05M filter with the flourescents that I'm using to give
the lights a bit more warmth for portraits if desired.

My ultimate goal is to find a filter that gives me nearly identical
RGB values in RAW whites without any color balancing at all so that
little or no color correction post-processing would have to be
done... just adjust the 'zones' in Curves for 'pop'. :)

Tom
BKKSW said:
Brian Mackey said:
Here ya go :)

Brain -
Click to expand...
I found three of the lights in my local Walmart today.. I snatched
them up and asked them to find me three more from other stores.. I
sure wish they had them on the stands vs. floor mounting.. But I
can mount them on the walls, or make up some sort of holder..

BKKSW
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Hi y´all!

If I recall correctly, fluorescent bulbs emit light that flickers at a frequency of about 60Hz. If you shoot at anything below 1/100th of a second, you might end up with inconsistently lit photographs. If you shoot long exposures (as possible in product photography) you are fine, but they are not 100% suitable for portraiture.

HMI lamps are probably the best way out of this dilemma, as they are emitting a lot less heat than regular Halogen bulbs and come in all sorts of color temperatures between 4000 and 10000+K. Also they maintain their color temperature throughout their lifetime quite well. In case anybody wonders who might need 10000K (very blue) lights: They are used for aquariums in which a certain water depth needs to be simulated to create a habitat for special plant species and fish. HMI lights are usually quite expensive if bought new, but there are quite a few up on ebay regularly. HMI lights are the prime light source for store windows and professional stage lighting, so if such a store goes belly-up, their equipment is not seldomly liquidated on ebay.

Hope this helps!

Cheers Matthias/Germany.
 
Hi Mattigol,

That is true of flourescent lights using magnetic ballasts. But, more and more they are being replaced by fixtures and bulbs using electronic ballasts.

These particular flourescent lights use electronic ballasts that operate at about 20,000 cycles per second. These ballasts are used in most compact fourescent bulbs and the newer T8 fixtures.
mattigol said:
Hi y´all!

If I recall correctly, fluorescent bulbs emit light that flickers
at a frequency of about 60Hz. If you shoot at anything below
1/100th of a second, you might end up with inconsistently lit
photographs. If you shoot long exposures (as possible in product
photography) you are fine, but they are not 100% suitable for
portraiture.

HMI lamps are probably the best way out of this dilemma, as they
are emitting a lot less heat than regular Halogen bulbs and come in
all sorts of color temperatures between 4000 and 10000+K. Also they
maintain their color temperature throughout their lifetime quite
well. In case anybody wonders who might need 10000K (very blue)
lights: They are used for aquariums in which a certain water depth
needs to be simulated to create a habitat for special plant species
and fish. HMI lights are usually quite expensive if bought new, but
there are quite a few up on ebay regularly. HMI lights are the
prime light source for store windows and professional stage
lighting, so if such a store goes belly-up, their equipment is not
seldomly liquidated on ebay.

Hope this helps!

Cheers Matthias/Germany.
Click to expand...
 
Interestingly, the flourescents... provided they are telling the truth about the total effective light output... mayl be MORE effective than a 500watt incandescent since most of the incandescent's power is dissipated in heat and NOT visible light.

Try shooting a Kodak Grayscale or McBeth Color Chart in RAW. Bring in the RAW without any color correction and see what the CCD is REALLY seeing. I think you will amazed. :)

Orange... everything is ORANGE! (LOL)

To get real color you have to REALLY boost the output from the blue channel. So, let's say that your blue channel values averaged between 20 and 25... a difference of 5. To bring that up to true white would mean multiplying by a factor of 10... or a 200-250 spread! So, you see why I think lights make a difference. If I don't have to multiply by a huge number then I shouldn't increase the inherent noise much.
Jim Bracegirdle said:
Brian Mackey said:
Their web site is terrible but you canfind these at SAMS and they
kick! 19.00 each here in NJ, usese 65 watts, 500 watt output,

If your interested email me Ill shoot some pics and email them to you.

Click to expand...
Hi Brian,
I use 2 lights with the same type of frame and reflector but mine
use Halogen bulbs and are a true 500 watts per lamp. Being thin I
don't mind the heat. I set my WB to 3000K as instructed by
manufacturer. There are stands available which can make them more
versatile. I use aluminum covered foam core 1/2 inch thick by 4
feet sq, for house siding insulation as my reflectors when needed.
Jim.
--
Jim
Click to expand...
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but there is only three qualities of light. Spectral, Diffused & Bounce. Learn these and how to mix and manipulate them and you are on your way to becoming a photographer. A thorough understanding of color tempature (Kelvin rating) and you are on your way to becoming a master color photogher.

The first thing I teach my students in photography is to understand the term. PHOTO=LIGHT, GRAPHIC=TO DRAW. Simply, we draw with light. If the shadows are many and harsh you are using to many speculare lights. Diffuse the source or bounce it to soften the quality. Light is like clay, mix and mold it to your purpose. The magic is in being able to overide that best of auto everthing camera (the human mind) and really see the light.

Just 2 cents worth

John Moreno
--John Moreno
 
John -

I'm curious as to lessons 2,3, and on up.. Light is often discussed on this forum, but not always in easy to understand terms. I'm sure futher advise from you would be greatlyy appreciated..

BKKSW
John Moreno said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but there is only three qualities of light.
Spectral, Diffused & Bounce. Learn these and how to mix and
manipulate them and you are on your way to becoming a photographer.
A thorough understanding of color tempature (Kelvin rating) and you
are on your way to becoming a master color photogher.
The first thing I teach my students in photography is to understand
the term. PHOTO=LIGHT, GRAPHIC=TO DRAW. Simply, we draw with
light. If the shadows are many and harsh you are using to many
speculare lights. Diffuse the source or bounce it to soften the
quality. Light is like clay, mix and mold it to your purpose. The
magic is in being able to overide that best of auto everthing
camera (the human mind) and really see the light.

Just 2 cents worth

John Moreno

--
John Moreno
Click to expand...
 
BKKSW said:
I'm curious as to lessons 2,3, and on up.. Light is often
discussed on this forum, but not always in easy to understand
terms. I'm sure futher advise from you would be greatlyy
appreciated..

BKKSW
John Moreno said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but there is only three qualities of light.
Spectral, Diffused & Bounce. Learn these and how to mix and
manipulate them and you are on your way to becoming a photographer.
A thorough understanding of color tempature (Kelvin rating) and you
are on your way to becoming a master color photogher.
The first thing I teach my students in photography is to understand
the term. PHOTO=LIGHT, GRAPHIC=TO DRAW. Simply, we draw with
light. If the shadows are many and harsh you are using to many
speculare lights. Diffuse the source or bounce it to soften the
quality. Light is like clay, mix and mold it to your purpose. The
magic is in being able to overide that best of auto everthing
camera (the human mind) and really see the light.

Just 2 cents worth

John Moreno

--
John Moreno
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--John Moreno
 
John -

Are you teasing me here? Or did what you write not make it to the msg? I really am interested in what you know about using light to the best advantage in photography..and I think most others would be too..

BKKSW
John Moreno said:
BKKSW said:
I'm curious as to lessons 2,3, and on up.. Light is often
discussed on this forum, but not always in easy to understand
terms. I'm sure futher advise from you would be greatlyy
appreciated..

BKKSW
John Moreno said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but there is only three qualities of light.
Spectral, Diffused & Bounce. Learn these and how to mix and
manipulate them and you are on your way to becoming a photographer.
A thorough understanding of color tempature (Kelvin rating) and you
are on your way to becoming a master color photogher.
The first thing I teach my students in photography is to understand
the term. PHOTO=LIGHT, GRAPHIC=TO DRAW. Simply, we draw with
light. If the shadows are many and harsh you are using to many
speculare lights. Diffuse the source or bounce it to soften the
quality. Light is like clay, mix and mold it to your purpose. The
magic is in being able to overide that best of auto everthing
camera (the human mind) and really see the light.

Just 2 cents worth

John Moreno

--
John Moreno
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--
John Moreno
Click to expand...
 
I'm sorry if you miss read my last post. I feel I can offer a great deal of advise but I have been burned in this forum before as well so I am cautious in my response.
Simply there are three types of light qualities if you can imagine.

Spectral.... The Sun or a bare non froststed light bulb. Hard shadows but great accent lighting behind or to the side of a subject.

Diffused.... The Sun on a cloudy day or light passing through a frosted glass or diffuion screen.

Bounce..... The light that reflects off a surface or even the light that comes from the North as it reflects off the atmosphere.

Take any of the light souces mentioned in this thread and you can manipulate them. Shine them on a subject directly and observe the shadows then put a diffusion screen in front of the source (taking the necessary precautions with halogen lights of course) and you get distinct but softer shadows. I use white ripstop nylon but you could use a white photo umbrella. Next you bounce the light off a white surface even the same umbrella you used for diffusion and you get almost no shadow at all.

Imagine that you have two halogen work lights. Place a bare light behind the subject and above them slightly to one side. Place another in front of the subject to the opposite side but diffuse it using a frosted glss cover or a diffusion screen and then place a white card opposite that light to bounce some fill light into the shadow area. BAM!! instant portrait lighting like the pros use.

What do you think would happen if you used a red card instead of a white card for fill? This is a mistake many people make when using bounce flash in a room. The concept is good if the walls are not painted green and the walls are not 20 feet away (light loses intensity with distance).

This all seems so simple to me as I work with it daily and trying to bring it in to simple terms is not so simple but if you begin to study light and remember those three qualities I've mentioned it will soon become simple for you regardless of the lights you choose. May I also recommend that you get a handheld light meter, it will teach you volumes about exposure. Do not buy the most high tech big bucks meter. Buy a simple Gossen pilot or other incedent meter (measuring the light hitting the subject not reflecting off the subject).
I hope this helps, if not then send more post and I will respond as I can.

PHOTO=Light GRAPHIC=Draw

John Moreno
--John Moreno
 
John -

Thank you very much !!! I wasn't witness to you getting burned before, but I can imagine.. I'd like to think our forum has matured since then. It's obvious your knowledge would benefit many on this forum and would be welcomed by many.

It seems to me that a few people on this forum who work professionally with cameras have certain areas of expertise that the rest of us could benefit by. My photographic skills are adequate for my work, which is mostly taking pictures of people and places and interviewing individuals to actually take the reader/viewer there, right where I was sitting. The photographic skills needed are basic, but the interviewing and travelling skills/knowledge is the real key to my work.

Selecting the right interpreter or learning the langauge isn't easy, and studying the culture and traditions to fish people into feeling relaxed and actually wanting to share their stories isn't easy either. But they're real skills and not many are really effective at it. Many people who have went on a "ride-a-long" with me thought it would be a walk in the park, but quickly discovered differently.

It just seems to me that the forum could benefit from the knowledge and experience of these individuals and I'd love to see them write a "lesson" and post it, and then accept questions and discussion.. We could all learn so much.. This is why I asked you.. Using light in a portrait/studio setting isn't my forte, but I would like to learn to produce decent results and set up a studio on the cheap to enable me to produce good results for personal use. I'm on with environmental portraits using natural lighting, but not good at all with other sources of lighting..

So thanks for your explanation. I printed it out and will save it to help me when I get to try my new lights after I move in at the end of the month..

A red reflector? I suppose it would deepen skin tones and provide a quality natural lighting effect, but to be honest I have no idea..

Thank you for your time and knowledge.

BKKSW
John Moreno said:
I'm sorry if you miss read my last post. I feel I can offer a
great deal of advise but I have been burned in this forum before as
well so I am cautious in my response.
Simply there are three types of light qualities if you can imagine.
Spectral.... The Sun or a bare non froststed light bulb. Hard
shadows but great accent lighting behind or to the side of a
subject.

Diffused.... The Sun on a cloudy day or light passing through a
frosted glass or diffuion screen.

Bounce..... The light that reflects off a surface or even the light
that comes from the North as it reflects off the atmosphere.

Take any of the light souces mentioned in this thread and you can
manipulate them. Shine them on a subject directly and observe the
shadows then put a diffusion screen in front of the source (taking
the necessary precautions with halogen lights of course) and you
get distinct but softer shadows. I use white ripstop nylon but you
could use a white photo umbrella. Next you bounce the light off a
white surface even the same umbrella you used for diffusion and you
get almost no shadow at all.

Imagine that you have two halogen work lights. Place a bare light
behind the subject and above them slightly to one side. Place
another in front of the subject to the opposite side but diffuse it
using a frosted glss cover or a diffusion screen and then place a
white card opposite that light to bounce some fill light into the
shadow area. BAM!! instant portrait lighting like the pros use.
What do you think would happen if you used a red card instead of a
white card for fill? This is a mistake many people make when using
bounce flash in a room. The concept is good if the walls are not
painted green and the walls are not 20 feet away (light loses
intensity with distance).
This all seems so simple to me as I work with it daily and trying
to bring it in to simple terms is not so simple but if you begin to
study light and remember those three qualities I've mentioned it
will soon become simple for you regardless of the lights you
choose. May I also recommend that you get a handheld light meter,
it will teach you volumes about exposure. Do not buy the most high
tech big bucks meter. Buy a simple Gossen pilot or other incedent
meter (measuring the light hitting the subject not reflecting off
the subject).
I hope this helps, if not then send more post and I will respond as
I can.

PHOTO=Light GRAPHIC=Draw

John Moreno

--
John Moreno
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Keyboard shortcuts

f
Forum
m
My threads
Mobile site
About
Editorial content
Cameras & Lenses
Community
All content, design, and layout are Copyright © 1998–2025 Digital Photography Review All Rights Reserved.
Reproduction in whole or part in any form or medium without specific written permission is prohibited.
When you use DPReview links to buy products, the site may earn a commission.
©GPS Media - Guides, Products, Services.
Back
Top