Sony A-100 Handles Arena Football...Read 'em and Weep ;-)

Sonolta · Sep 25, 2007

Apples and oranges? Not a chance....BTW, thanks for the complement.

I use these for arena football:

Sigma 24mm 2.8
Minolta 50mm 1.7
Minolta 50 1.7 w/Oly A-200 tele making this a 75 1.7
Minolta 135 2.8
Tokina 80-200 ATX-Pro 2.8

First of all, the Sony does not have any image quality left at ISO 1600 so you must limit the camera to ISO800 to get even some detail not obliterated by noise. 400 is better, but almost no arena sports allow for that, without a flash that is. I don't flash the participants so 99 percent of my stuff is handheld natural light.

The only thing to do is work the Sony at 800 and down around F2....At f2.8 the edges of the field start getting too dark for the Sony.

So let me break this down.

The Minolta is trustworthy at 1600 all night long at speeds to 1/250 to 1/500.

All photos from the 5D will have some shadow detail with good eye resolution. The Sony will give me a few keepers at ISO 800 as too much detail is blown away on the dark complexions and in the shadows. The eyes are not resolved way too often, they are lost in noise.

So...long story short....ISO400 would be reliable enough on the A100 but the arena is too dark so you must use 800 and overexpose and hope to get 1/250 or so. Not quite fast enough to stop action so again another drawback of shooting the Sony.

The M5D is dreamy at ISO800....maybe better than the Sony at ISO400...you see where we are going with this...The 5D is still sweet at 1600...

The 5D is great with shadow noise and the Sony sucks real bad...that's the problem and it's a 1 1/2 stop problem.

I am going to make a challenge post at ISO1600 with football pix over here....to see if the A700 can take the M5D. I'll make that post later tonight.

Here are some M5D ISO800 from this season to look at in the meantime.

What exactly were you meaning with that apples to oranges stuff? I shoot with both cameras hanging around my neck at the same time??

Thanks.

-MM

Ausgezeichnetcom · Sep 25, 2007

So, KM is still alive then!
greetings,
Bernd

jamesdak · Sep 27, 2007

First off, tough shooting conditions. If your're going to do a lot of this I'd find a DSLR that would allow me to shoot higher ISO with acceptable quality. Maybe the A700 is that and maybe you look elsewhere.

While you've captured decent shots in tough conditions I personally would have sent most of them to the recycle bin. With your described aperture and shutter speeds you are lucky to be getting anything close to usable. All the images show to narrow DOF for my liking as I would at least like to see all the players involved in the play in focus. Lots of motion blur also which is to be expected if you're shooting 1/500 to capture the images.

Anyway, that's how I view them. But let me also say I do recognize the tough condtions you are shooting it. Personally I don't do much of indoor sports because I'm not happy with the quality I obtain either. I demand the same from my images that I noted about yours.

Anyway, good captures under the conditions i guess but I personally would not be happy with them.

Are you looking for other equipment options?
--
Long live the HMS Beagle

Norbert_Nitzsche · Sep 27, 2007

Really like your pics. DOF is no problem for me and some motion blurr is essential in action shots. Yours have just the right amount of it for my liking.
Great work

Norbert

Sonolta · Sep 27, 2007

jamesdak wrote:
Did you even read my freakin post??? I think NOT!!!

jamesdak said:
First off, tough shooting conditions. If your're going to do a lot
of this I'd find a DSLR that would allow me to shoot higher ISO with
acceptable quality.

I guess you did not read any of my post!!! I shoot the M5D and own the best indoor football image site on the planet!

http://www.rockriverfootball.com/raptors/v/2007+rock+river+raptors/

I have an indoor football magazine cover and my autographed prints are sold at the games!

jamesdak said:
Maybe the A700 is that and maybe you look
elsewhere.

The Minolta 5D is usable as I stated in my OP!

jamesdak said:
While you've captured decent shots in tough conditions I personally
would have sent most of them to the recycle bin.

You would not have sent tnhose captures to the bin! You are a real joker....The timing and emotion and motion blur in those is almost perfect.

jamesdak said:
With your described
aperture and shutter speeds you are lucky to be getting anything
close to usable.

Usable this! Those are the shutter speeds I want! I shoot 1/350 for some sense of motion in the frame...not 1/500. The Sony A100 can't really do either very often without shooting 1.4 or 1.7.

jamesdak said:
All the images show to narrow DOF for my liking as
I would at least like to see all the players involved in the play in
focus.

You must not shoot much indoor football!! The best shots leave a spot of action and leave the flow of the game...that is what my shots do!!

jamesdak said:
Lots of motion blur also which is to be expected if you're
shooting 1/500 to capture the images.

No....1/500 will stop all arena football action!

jamesdak said:
Anyway, that's how I view them.

Sorry to see you did not read my original post and ain't much of a football picture fan!

jamesdak said:
But let me also say I do recognize
the tough condtions you are shooting it.

Find me better indoor football pictures....my 5D picts rival the award winners. 15,000 vies a day at my site tell me many like the pix.

jamesdak said:
Personally I don't do much
of indoor sports because I'm not happy with the quality I obtain
either.

I can tell you don't shoot any! The team sells my prints at the games, are used for trading card publications, printed in newspapers nationwide, and are used for national magazine covers. My indoor pix are about as good as you will find anywhere.

jamesdak said:
I demand the same from my images that I noted about yours.

You are clueless on indoor football images, sorry!

jamesdak said:
Anyway, good captures under the conditions i guess but I personally
would not be happy with them.

You don't know much about indoor football pix...those are some very well time pix that put you IN THE GAME.

jamesdak said:
Are you looking for other equipment options?

Read my original post before you start spouting about things you do not know about.

Thanks

PS...have a looks at some of my 5D action shots, obviously you have missed them along the way.

-MM

Sonolta · Sep 27, 2007

Norbert_Nitzsche said:
Really like your pics. DOF is no problem for me and some motion blurr
is essential in action shots. Yours have just the right amount of it
for my liking.
Great work

Norbert

Thank you for your reply and comments.

Yes, some motion blur is essential in almost every good sports action shot and that is what I shoot for everytime out. It's a fine line, but you must walk it. To feel the action you must have some blurring.

Thanks very much for taking the time to comment, much appreciated. There is almost no better feeling than grabbing that goal line stretch or catch and then relive it in print years later.

Thanks again and happy shooting!

-MM

PS...I did not notice that other posters comment or I would have replied to his odd speks much earlier.

Papasha · Sep 27, 2007

I don't want to waste my time on silly discussions, but your work here is absolutely fabulous! I will be looking forward to your first A700 posts under same conditions. Can't wait!

Sonolta said:
jamesdak wrote:

jamesdak · Sep 27, 2007

Sonolta said:
jamesdak wrote:

Did you even read my freakin post??? I think NOT!!!

Sonolta said:
Sonolta said:

First off, tough shooting conditions. If your're going to do a lot
of this I'd find a DSLR that would allow me to shoot higher ISO with
acceptable quality.

Click to expand...

I guess you did not read any of my post!!! I shoot the M5D and own
the best indoor football image site on the planet!

??? Ok, so you shoot a KM5D and an A100, neither of these are known to have the best high ISO performance.

Sonolta said:
http://www.rockriverfootball.com/raptors/v/2007+rock+river+raptors/

I have an indoor football magazine cover and my autographed prints
are sold at the games!

Congratulations and I really do mean that. But I sell images too that would not meet my personal standard. But if they sell, hey.....

Sonolta said:
Sonolta said:

Maybe the A700 is that and maybe you look
elsewhere.

Click to expand...

The Minolta 5D is usable as I stated in my OP!

Ok, but being truly honest and open minded are there not other DSLR's that perform better for this kind of work?

Sonolta said:
Sonolta said:

While you've captured decent shots in tough conditions I personally
would have sent most of them to the recycle bin.

Click to expand...

You would not have sent tnhose captures to the bin! You are a real
joker....The timing and emotion and motion blur in those is almost
perfect.

I stand by my statement. I like my football shots tack sharp with the dirt and spit flying. The only slight motion blur I might be able to stand is in the hands or feet not the heads, bodies, etc. But that is my taste as I though I explained originally.

Sonolta said:
Sonolta said:

With your described
aperture and shutter speeds you are lucky to be getting anything
close to usable.

Click to expand...

Usable this! Those are the shutter speeds I want! I shoot 1/350 for
some sense of motion in the frame...not 1/500. The Sony A100 can't
really do either very often without shooting 1.4 or 1.7.

Umm, I shoot sports at 1/1000 and higher to freeze the action. Once again, a matter of taste. If I could only get shutter speeds of 1/500 in a football game I would not shoot. Hence why I shot outdoor and not indoor football. But, like I said, I understand the tough conditions you shoot in.

Sonolta said:
Sonolta said:

All the images show to narrow DOF for my liking as
I would at least like to see all the players involved in the play in
focus.

Click to expand...

You must not shoot much indoor football!! The best shots leave a spot
of action and leave the flow of the game...that is what my shots do!!

That is correct, I don't shoot indoor but may start again now that I have a Canon 5D and 30D.

Sonolta said:
Sonolta said:

Lots of motion blur also which is to be expected if you're
shooting 1/500 to capture the images.

Click to expand...

No....1/500 will stop all arena football action!

Hmmm, does not appear that way in my opinion from the images shown. Maybe we just define "stop all action" differently

Sonolta said:
Sonolta said:

Anyway, that's how I view them.

Click to expand...

Sorry to see you did not read my original post and ain't much of a
football picture fan!

Actually, I love good football pictures and take quite a few myself.

Sonolta said:
Sonolta said:

But let me also say I do recognize
the tough condtions you are shooting it.

Click to expand...

Find me better indoor football pictures....my 5D picts rival the
award winners. 15,000 vies a day at my site tell me many like the pix.

Cool!

Sonolta said:
Sonolta said:

Personally I don't do much
of indoor sports because I'm not happy with the quality I obtain
either.

Click to expand...

I can tell you don't shoot any! The team sells my prints at the
games, are used for trading card publications, printed in newspapers
nationwide, and are used for national magazine covers. My indoor pix
are about as good as you will find anywhere.

Maybe and if that's the case I will not find any of the images to my satisfaction. But I know that's not the case because I've seen the work and have worked with other photographers that routinely produce better indoor sports shots. Of course, "better" is a subjective term and in this case refers only to what I like. You obviously have different standards and that is fine.

Sonolta said:
Sonolta said:

I demand the same from my images that I noted about yours.

Click to expand...

You are clueless on indoor football images, sorry!

Maybe, I only know what I like. I cannot speak for others.

Sonolta said:
Sonolta said:

Anyway, good captures under the conditions i guess but I personally
would not be happy with them.

Click to expand...

You don't know much about indoor football pix...those are some very
well time pix that put you IN THE GAME.

I totally agree with the timing and never meant to say otherwise. I have issues with the execution and overall quality as I percieve it.

Sonolta said:
Sonolta said:

Are you looking for other equipment options?

Click to expand...

Read my original post before you start spouting about things you do
not know about.

Whatever, I am the type of photographer who is always looking to improve my craft and love having others critique my work. I often forget that others cannot stand to have anyone do anything other than stroke their egos. I only originally responded to offer a differing point of view thinking that you might find it helpful. It was never my intent to offend. Feel free to critique anything of mine you can find posted. I welcome it with an open mind and am certain I've got plenty of images posted that others can tear apart, LOL!!

Sonolta said:
Thanks

PS...have a looks at some of my 5D action shots, obviously you have
missed them along the way.
--

Long live the HMS Beagle

Sonolta · Sep 27, 2007

Papasha said:
I don't want to waste my time on silly discussions, but your work
here is absolutely fabulous! I will be looking forward to your first
A700 posts under same conditions. Can't wait!

Thank you kindly for your comments. I am very interested to see this as well...better handling, better focusing, faster FR, and more MP will be great, I just hope A700 ISO1600 RAW output does not have a like slight watercolor effect under bad light like an example or two have shown??

Your recent post convinced me that the A700 may indeed do some things for me so I sure hope not.

Thanks again and keep that eye sharp.

-MM

Sonolta · Sep 27, 2007

jamesdak said:
Sonolta said:

jamesdak wrote:

Did you even read my freakin post??? I think NOT!!!

Click to expand...

jamesdak said:

jamesdak said:

First off, tough shooting conditions. If your're going to do a lot
of this I'd find a DSLR that would allow me to shoot higher ISO with
acceptable quality.

Click to expand...

I guess you did not read any of my post!!! I shoot the M5D and own
the best indoor football image site on the planet!

Click to expand...

??? Ok, so you shoot a KM5D and an A100, neither of these are known
to have the best high ISO performance.

Get real...some reliable testing and real world says the M5D is actually very good....not the best...but good and excellent for it's day.

jamesdak said:
jamesdak said:

http://www.rockriverfootball.com/raptors/v/2007+rock+river+raptors/

I have an indoor football magazine cover and my autographed prints
are sold at the games!

Click to expand...

Congratulations and I really do mean that. But I sell images too
that would not meet my personal standard. But if they sell, hey.....

Find me some better indoor football picks and post the links here.

jamesdak said:
jamesdak said:

jamesdak said:

Maybe the A700 is that and maybe you look
elsewhere.

Click to expand...

The Minolta 5D is usable as I stated in my OP!

Click to expand...

Ok, but being truly honest and open minded are there not other DSLR's
that perform better for this kind of work?

Not when I own Minolta glass...going full frame shortens effective focal lengths and lessons DOF...both not so good here but your shots will be cleaner.

jamesdak said:
jamesdak said:

jamesdak said:

While you've captured decent shots in tough conditions I personally
would have sent most of them to the recycle bin.

Click to expand...

You would not have sent those captures to the bin! You are a real
joker....The timing and emotion and motion blur in those is almost
perfect.

Click to expand...

I stand by my statement. I like my football shots tack sharp with
the dirt and spit flying.

Dirts don't fly in small town arena concrete playing surfaces lit by crappy yellow lights.

jamesdak said:
The only slight motion blur I might be
able to stand is in the hands or feet not the heads, bodies, etc.
But that is my taste as I though I explained originally.

Guess you don't like to feel the speed or the hits.

jamesdak said:
jamesdak said:

jamesdak said:

With your described
aperture and shutter speeds you are lucky to be getting anything
close to usable.

Click to expand...

Usable this! Those are the shutter speeds I want! I shoot 1/350 for
some sense of motion in the frame...not 1/500. The Sony A100 can't
really do either very often without shooting 1.4 or 1.7.

Click to expand...

Umm, I shoot sports at 1/1000 and higher to freeze the action. Once
again, a matter of taste. If I could only get shutter speeds of
1/500 in a football game I would not shoot. Hence why I shot outdoor
and not indoor football. But, like I said, I understand the tough
conditions you shoot in.

Nobody in the wide world of sports gets 1/1000 in the arenas without adding strobes. 1/500 you can do...Dude...compare element to element...look around and find me those arena football shots...give me 4 or 5 guys doing good work...please.

jamesdak said:
jamesdak said:

jamesdak said:

All the images show to narrow DOF for my liking as
I would at least like to see all the players involved in the play in
focus.

Click to expand...

You must not shoot much indoor football!! The best shots leave a spot
of action and leave the flow of the game...that is what my shots do!!

Click to expand...

That is correct, I don't shoot indoor but may start again now that I
have a Canon 5D and 30D.

Stll won't get that 1/1000 you like so you won't be doing very well I guess.

jamesdak said:
jamesdak said:

jamesdak said:

Lots of motion blur also which is to be expected if you're
shooting 1/500 to capture the images.

Click to expand...

No....1/500 will stop all arena football action!

Click to expand...

Hmmm, does not appear that way in my opinion from the images shown.
Maybe we just define "stop all action" differently

Almost none of those shots are at 1/500...I don't shoot 1/500 that often when I shoot arena ball.

jamesdak said:
jamesdak said:

jamesdak said:

Anyway, that's how I view them.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

You should compare them to other arena ball pix...not to the man on the moon!

jamesdak said:
jamesdak said:

Sorry to see you did not read my original post and ain't much of a
football picture fan!

Click to expand...

Actually, I love good football pictures and take quite a few myself.

Not indoors you don't.

jamesdak said:
jamesdak said:

jamesdak said:

But let me also say I do recognize
the tough condtions you are shooting it.

Click to expand...

Find me better indoor football pictures....my 5D picx rival the
award winners. 15,000 vies a day at my site tell me many like the pix.

Click to expand...

Cool!

Find me all of these great arena football shooters that live off in fairyland somewhere....show me a few good arena ball shooters galleries...please!

There are some here, of course: http://ww.rockriverfootball.com

jamesdak said:
jamesdak said:

jamesdak said:

Personally I don't do much
of indoor sports because I'm not happy with the quality I obtain
either.

Click to expand...

I can tell you don't shoot any! The team sells my prints at the
games, are used for trading card publications, printed in newspapers
nationwide, and are used for national magazine covers. My indoor pix
are about as good as you will find anywhere.

Click to expand...

Maybe and if that's the case I will not find any of the images to my
satisfaction. But I know that's not the case because I've seen the
work and have worked with other photographers that routinely produce
better indoor sports shots. Of course, "better" is a subjective term
and in this case refers only to what I like. You obviously have
different standards and that is fine.

You looked at 3000 images on my site and of all those I posted here and nothing suits you?? You a real joker my friend...biggest joker I have ran across in a while.

jamesdak said:
jamesdak said:

jamesdak said:

I demand the same from my images that I noted about yours.

Click to expand...

You are clueless on indoor football images, sorry!

Click to expand...

Maybe, I only know what I like. I cannot speak for others.

Sonolta · Sep 27, 2007

Show me some galleries of arena football images you like before you attempt to cut mine up - whiich are some of the best around.

Sonolta said:
Sonolta said:

Sonolta said:

Anyway, good captures under the conditions i guess but I personally
would not be happy with them.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Finally, thank you...if you saw what most of the team photographers do you would think I am shooting SI.

Sonolta said:
Sonolta said:

You don't know much about indoor football pix...those are some very
well time pix that put you IN THE GAME.

Click to expand...

I totally agree with the timing and never meant to say otherwise. I
have issues with the execution and overall quality as I percieve it.

Execution is how I wanted, the quality is very good for pix of this subject matter. They print nicely at 12 inches, most doable at 18 inches, and they look fabulous.

Newspapers, Magazines, Autographed at the Game, Fans, Players, and they are as good or better than most of my peers work in this field, what more should I want?

Sonolta said:
Sonolta said:

Sonolta said:

Are you looking for other equipment options?

Click to expand...

Read my original post before you start spouting about things you do
not know about.

Click to expand...

Whatever, I am the type of photographer who is always looking to
improve my craft and love having others critique my work.

To critique you must compare my work to other team and freelance shooters in the field. At least take a looksy at the awesome coverage of the entire games in my galleries...fans, execs, action, cheer, etc, etc...One-of-a-kind as far as I know.

Sonolta said:
I often
forget that others cannot stand to have anyone do anything other than
stroke their egos.

Stroke yourself...I posted because I need to know what the A700 can do. You posted to act like an egghead and cut up very nice captures...captures not easily made by many.

Sonolta said:
I only originally responded to offer a differing
point of view thinking that you might find it helpful.

Helpful....actually quite the contrary, your ridiculous post may have scared others away that could have learned something or taught something. It takes skill and experience to get great arena football shots like I do with the 5D and A100.

Sonolta said:
It was never
my intent to offend.

Nobody is offended....now man up and make a comment as to what you don't like about each one of the three dozen or so images so I can learn from you, the indoor-football master, the one whom has never delivered a good indoor football picture in his life.

Please teach me, teach me...I am ready to learn, always...but I doubt I can learn arena football shooting from you. Post them master arena ball shooters galleries and team gallery links...I do want to see all of these shots and lowlight football photographers that make me look like dooky...where are they?

I will settle for your critique on each image if you can't find any...I am sure I will learn from that. You said all of this stuff sucked...cmon, time to put up a few dozen shots, link a few galleries, or close down the comments. You fired first comment and fired nothing but crud...you did not even read the Opost...and real football fans would enjoy those pix...erhmm, ya know what I mean?

Sonolta said:
Feel free to critique anything of mine you can
find posted. I welcome it with an open mind and am certain I've got
plenty of images posted that others can tear apart, LOL!!

I have posted over 100 images lately....you have commented on none of them except these...I post some great stuff and you say it sucks...you must even think those cheerleader shots sucked....erhmm, ok...Mr master of lowlight sports shooting...I am ready for your links and individual critiques.

Thanks

-MM

Sonolta · Sep 27, 2007

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1037&message=24993381

Since it is buried in the thread up in jamesdak land, I thought some may like to see them just in-case you have missed the photos posted somewhere else.

jamesdak don't like 'em

-MM

jamesdak · Sep 27, 2007

Sonolta said:
You looked at 3000 images on my site and of all those I posted here
and nothing suits you?? You a real joker my friend...biggest joker I
have ran across in a while.

And you come across as quite the pompous shooter but that's fine. As I stated in the original reply I don't shoot indoor sports by choice because (and this will surprise you) I don't like using flash same as you!. But to get the quality I am happy with I need it. So all my references are to outside shooting. I conceded from the beginning that you did well with what you had to work with (or at least thought that's what my words meant) but it seems you took offense rather easily to a post that was never meant to be offensive. As to looking through your 3000 images I don't see the need. I would expect what you have posted here are some of your better shots and like it or not (and no offense) but they don't appeal to me. So I see no logical in going to your site to view more of the same. But, hey I don't like my indoor shots either in most cases which is why I don't do it. And yes, those that I would consider better than yours do use flash or even strobe setups. Reality is what it is.

--
Long live the HMS Beagle

svensven · Sep 27, 2007

Good to read your experience in arena light. Sound s a bit like mine with the nikon d70 versus a100. My reference is shots taken under floodlights at night for soccer or tennis. The a100 noise is abysmal in low light., it's a noise machine. Ocassionally an iso 800 shot will turn out ok, but more often than not, the noise kills the shot. (though the a100 color and auto wb was much better than the nikon) In fact, even in good light, at iso 400, noise can kill alot of the a100 shots. Anyways it would be intersting to see how well the a700 does in comparison, in these types of conditions. Though i don't expect a high MP aps sensor to do that great.

jamesdak · Sep 27, 2007

Sonolta said:
Sonolta said:

Sonolta said:

Sonolta said:

Anyway, good captures under the conditions i guess but I personally
would not be happy with them.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Finally, thank you...if you saw what most of the team photographers
do you would think I am shooting SI.

Umm, I understand what your saying but that may not be the best reference either in my book, LOL!!

Sonolta said:
Sonolta said:

Sonolta said:

You don't know much about indoor football pix...those are some very
well time pix that put you IN THE GAME.

Click to expand...

I totally agree with the timing and never meant to say otherwise. I
have issues with the execution and overall quality as I percieve it.

Click to expand...

Execution is how I wanted, the quality is very good for pix of this
subject matter. They print nicely at 12 inches, most doable at 18
inches, and they look fabulous.

Can you post a larger image or two because it just seems to me that they would not hold up?

Sonolta said:
Newspapers, Magazines, Autographed at the Game, Fans, Players, and
they are as good or better than most of my peers work in this field,
what more should I want?

A raise like the rest us, LOL!! Seriously though I still grapple with the issue of my personal taste for acceptable quality compared to what most people would pay for. I sell stuff all the time that I would not put on the wall of my house. But hey, if it pays bills or lets me buy another lens then I should feel ok with doing it.

Sonolta said:
Sonolta said:

Sonolta said:

Sonolta said:

Are you looking for other equipment options?

Click to expand...

Read my original post before you start spouting about things you do
not know about.

Click to expand...

Whatever, I am the type of photographer who is always looking to
improve my craft and love having others critique my work.

Click to expand...

To critique you must compare my work to other team and freelance
shooters in the field. At least take a looksy at the awesome coverage
of the entire games in my galleries...fans, execs, action, cheer,
etc, etc...One-of-a-kind as far as I know.

Sonolta said:
Sonolta said:

I often
forget that others cannot stand to have anyone do anything other than
stroke their egos.

Click to expand...

Stroke yourself...I posted because I need to know what the A700 can
do. You posted to act like an egghead and cut up very nice
captures...captures not easily made by many.

Here to either you are very sensitive or I am a bonehead who cannot express himself because my post was never intended to be offensive.

Sonolta said:
Sonolta said:

I only originally responded to offer a differing
point of view thinking that you might find it helpful.

Click to expand...

Helpful....actually quite the contrary, your ridiculous post may have
scared others away that could have learned something or taught
something. It takes skill and experience to get great arena football
shots like I do with the 5D and A100.

Having shot a 7D I'd totally agree with that. But maybe it scared them away to better equipment that can produce better images in those situations.

Sonolta said:
Sonolta said:

It was never
my intent to offend.

Click to expand...

Nobody is offended....now man up and make a comment as to what you
don't like about each one of the three dozen or so images so I can
learn from you, the indoor-football master, the one whom has never
delivered a good indoor football picture in his life.

True, but I have done Pro Basketball and (here I show my age) American Gladiators. As to specific comments I did that in my original post and you did not like it at all. May be best to leave that lay.

Sonolta said:
Please teach me, teach me...I am ready to learn, always...but I doubt
I can learn arena football shooting from you. Post them master arena
ball shooters galleries and team gallery links...I do want to see all
of these shots and lowlight football photographers that make me look
like dooky...where are they?

Ok, the more I read your response the more I understand what I am dealing with. There is no need to deal with you on this one any farther. Just try rereading my original response with an open mind.

Sonolta said:
I will settle for your critique on each image if you can't find
any...I am sure I will learn from that. You said all of this stuff
sucked...cmon, time to put up a few dozen shots, link a few
galleries, or close down the comments. You fired first comment and
fired nothing but crud...you did not even read the Opost...and real
football fans would enjoy those pix...erhmm, ya know what I mean?

Sonolta said:

Feel free to critique anything of mine you can
find posted. I welcome it with an open mind and am certain I've got
plenty of images posted that others can tear apart, LOL!!

Click to expand...

I have posted over 100 images lately....you have commented on none of
them except these...I post some great stuff and you say it
sucks...you must even think those cheerleader shots sucked....erhmm,
ok...Mr master of lowlight sports shooting...I am ready for your
links and individual critiques.

Well, to be honest the cheerleader shots are not to my liking either! I'm a life long Steelers fan and there's nothing good to be said about Dallas in my book, ROFL!! Oh yeah, please show me one place where I said your stuff "sucked". I usually reserve that description for my own work not others.

Sonolta said:
Thanks

-MM

--
Long live the HMS Beagle

Sonolta · Sep 27, 2007

I reply...

I knew you would not bring the mustard...still no indoor football examples or links from you. sigh...

If indoor sports photographers perceived things as you do...a sports picture would have never been taken...no coverage of local high school football. no arena football...no football except the NFL...Sports pages would be boring...magazines would be thin...the world would be less off...

Grainy film sports pix were not for you....no indoor football pix for you.

This is not ISO100 FineArt....this is Sports photography....2-6 inches images for mags and newspapers....12-18 inch prints....football cards....Autographs....Players...Fans...etc....nobody wants a 40 inch indoor football print. The 5D easily provides some nice output for printing.

I posted web server automatically compression and sharpening images....my server is not great at scaling everything. The Sony ISO800 stuff will print small....the Minolta stuff will print nicely.

It was not my intent to post the best shots that will hold up to pixel level scrutiny. I posted interesting shots....fullfield crops from a 135....1/3 crops....some full frame. We are talking 70 yards at ISO1600 under the yellow lights. If I wanted to post the best technical shots...I could have but I have thousands of good shots and I don't feel the need. I will post a couple like you asked for though from these...

Straight from the camera unsharpened .jpgs, I only converted from AdobeRGB to sRGB and cropped. No nothing...no sharpening... no noise reduction no nothing. Picasa even messed the color up on the receiver shot but I am in a bit of a hurry and used it anyway. M135 2.8 M5D ISO1600 and ISO800

The 5D is better than most alternatives because it gives me pretty good image stablized shots at ISO1600 on all of my lenses. To get usable image stabilized ISO1600 in another brand would cost me a fortune.

As to the last stuff...you said you would round bin everything...LoL...anyway, regarding the Steelers...UNBELIEVABLE...I have a Steeler Super Bowl Ball (replicata of some sort) here on my desk...I am a fan since 1969 and my kid got me one of those balls last time we won the bowl.

Read 'em and weep...you can't tell me those won't stand up with some minor pp work...And that is handheld camera .jpg action my friend.

-MM

Sonolta · Sep 27, 2007

jamesdak said:
And you come across as quite the pompous shooter but that's fine.

I will bite my lip on this one...

jamesdak said:
As
I stated in the original reply I don't shoot indoor sports by choice
because (and this will surprise you) I don't like using flash same as
you!.

i am not surprised...I shoot everything no flash....learned lowlight shooting fish.

jamesdak said:
But to get the quality I am happy with I need it. So all my
references are to outside shooting.

Horrible reference to say the least.

jamesdak said:
I conceded from the beginning
that you did well with what you had to work with (or at least thought
that's what my words meant) but it seems you took offense rather
easily to a post that was never meant to be offensive.

I'll bite my lip here again.

jamesdak said:
As to looking
through your 3000 images I don't see the need.

Expected from a guy like you...you are no real football fan or football photographer. You are a rude one though.

jamesdak said:
I would expect what
you have posted here are some of your better shots and like it or not
(and no offense) but they don't appeal to me.

Not even close...explained this before, either here, or in the full-rez post.

jamesdak said:
So I see no logical in
going to your site to view more of the same.

You are a real character, aren't you?

jamesdak said:
But, hey I don't like
my indoor shots either in most cases which is why I don't do it.

Practice makes perfect.

jamesdak said:
And
yes, those that I would consider better than yours do use flash or
even strobe setups. Reality is what it is.

Yeah most venues and indoor events don't allow that in my area...polite and discreet and mostly flashless is the word... Flashes are to slow for me anyway...I fire nearly 500 shots an hour...don't have time for flashes. I would get so few shots it would be a joke...I am discreet and flashless and all of my subjects smile for me...Now outdoor fill flash is pretty cool...I don't use it. Tried flashing basketball back in 2002...did not like it at all. I respect flash guys...I just don't do it. I watch the newspaper guys stand around all night to get maybe two shots with flash guns...I am machine gunning for 200 good ones a night including cheer, fans, etc, etc....

The 5D is a pretty good sports weapon if you know how to use it...qustion is will the A700 deliver better high ISO or worse...no watercolors please...I dunno yet...maybe so.

The link to the full rez crops:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1037&message=24996792

otherwise known as the mustard.

-MM

Sonolta · Sep 27, 2007

By skipping out on my site since you had some excuse for not visiting...only time to bash what you don't do. Since I have provided a few action shots and cheerleaders I now present a little post-game and stands action.

It's in the game...

-MM

jAMES craiN · Sep 27, 2007

beatiful pics

jamesdak · Sep 27, 2007

Sonolta said:
I reply...

I knew you would not bring the mustard...still no indoor football
examples or links from you. sigh...

If indoor sports photographers perceived things as you do...a sports
picture would have never been taken...no coverage of local high
school football. no arena football...no football except the
NFL...Sports pages would be boring...magazines would be thin...the
world would be less off...

I still am not getting my point across obviously. I pointed out details that I would prefer and you've taken as " your pictures suck" I've never said that.

Sonolta said:
Grainy film sports pix were not for you....no indoor football pix for
you.

Dang right, look at them ol' 1970's sports shots in a night game or indoor basketball game, just shoot me, LOL!

Sonolta said:
This is not ISO100 FineArt....this is Sports photography....2-6
inches images for mags and newspapers....12-18 inch
prints....football
cards....Autographs....Players...Fans...etc....nobody wants a 40 inch
indoor football print. The 5D easily provides some nice output for
printing.

I posted web server automatically compression and sharpening
images....my server is not great at scaling everything. The Sony
ISO800 stuff will print small....the Minolta stuff will print nicely.

It was not my intent to post the best shots that will hold up to
pixel level scrutiny. I posted interesting shots....fullfield crops
from a 135....1/3 crops....some full frame. We are talking 70 yards
at ISO1600 under the yellow lights. If I wanted to post the best
technical shots...I could have but I have thousands of good shots and
I don't feel the need. I will post a couple like you asked for though
from these...

Straight from the camera unsharpened .jpgs, I only converted from
AdobeRGB to sRGB and cropped. No nothing...no sharpening... no noise
reduction no nothing. Picasa even messed the color up on the receiver
shot but I am in a bit of a hurry and used it anyway. M135 2.8 M5D
ISO1600 and ISO800

But you do use some in camera sharpening, yes? I do for all my football shots I provide the parents as there's no way I'm going through thousands of pictures a season to clean them up before they go on the DVD.

Sonolta said:
The 5D is better than most alternatives because it gives me pretty
good image stablized shots at ISO1600 on all of my lenses. To get
usable image stabilized ISO1600 in another brand would cost me a
fortune.

This is an old argument that I cannot give a definite answer on. Some say the cleaner ISO with other brands offsets the stabilized need. I've used both and still do not have an honest opinion on the matter.

Sonolta said:
As to the last stuff...you said you would round bin
everything...LoL...anyway, regarding the Steelers...UNBELIEVABLE...I
have a Steeler Super Bowl Ball (replicata of some sort) here on my
desk...I am a fan since 1969 and my kid got me one of those balls
last time we won the bowl.

See, we can get along! I've been a fan since 1970. Got my youngest a Big Ben signed football back in 2005 before we moved from PA. Then my wife surprised me with a Bus signed Superbowl jersey from the last Superbowl win. Of course I've still my original Steelers toboggan cap from the 70s also.

Sonolta said:
Read 'em and weep...you can't tell me those won't stand up with some
minor pp work...And that is handheld camera .jpg action my friend.

-MM

--
Long live the HMS Beagle

Sony A-100 Handles Arena Football...Read 'em and Weep ;-)

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