Pseudo-live preview mode?

Why that complicated and why not something totally different (-:

1. Make a SLR with a fix mirror.
2. Place a sensor at the place where the prism is (maybe interchangeable prism)
3. Put either a film or hi res D sensor in the standard film plane
4. Some more possibilities to preview either digital or film(!) shots instatanly

Doesn't this sound like a real system film/D SLR? (-;

Regards, A. Schiele.

Al Goldis said:

Good idea but I have some reservations. It would have to be a
custom function to prevent people from mistakenly taking
non-pictures. Not only that, but I think you would want to enable
it via custom function and be required to hold down the playback
button to get the review only.

Click to expand...

Yes. I'd suggest that it revert to normal mode every time the camera is turned off. Perhaps some combo button press would put it into remote view mode.

Al Goldis said:

I like your slip-on viewfinder camera idea much better (that was
you, right?).

Click to expand...

Actually, it's Contax's idea, on a FILM camera, no less. (N-1)

The camera already does something very similar to this, it's called taking a picture.

Doug Warner said:

I'm Baaack.. and still harping on the live preview issue. But.
please, listen to this idea..

Yes, the CMOS sensor needs the shutter, and the mirror is in the way.

So, how about, as a means of composing non-eyelevel shots, include
a mode (in firmware) that, at half-press, trips the shutter and
copies the image to the LCD only. This image remains until the
next press, or until the shot is taken.

Options:
1. Continuous preview shots as the shutter is held at half press
(Yes, there will be a power consumption penalty)
2. Histogram overlay. (Get the exposure right before shooting)
3. Time lapse on change.( Shoot previews automatically, saving to
flash only when a pre-set percentage of the pixels change.

Of course, there would have to be a short delay, so if the shutter
was fully pressed, it would just go take the shot. Also, if it was
fully-pressed immediately after the preview shot, then the image
just taken would be saved.
Still, for no-compromise work, the preview mode would default to OFF.

It could be done strictly in firmware, no hardware changes needed,
no compromises in normal mode.

Click to expand...

Don Schultz said:

Hi Guys:
Am I missing something or would an angle finder C not do what your
asking?

Click to expand...

You still need your head up next to the camera. Doesn't work if you're hanging it off a 10-foot pole off a bridge shooting bungeee jumpers, or under a fence, 6 inches above muddy ground. Also, I'm not sure I'd want to use any optical finder when trying to get some pics of a bunch of rattle snakes in their den..

John,
I'm assuming you're a serious amatuer, and spoke before he looked.

First, if you've not used one, please refrain from such snapish comments -- it belittles you and serves no positive purpose. Second, if I'm a gadget-lover with a toy, check my site, client list and awards (including tabletop photographer of the year by American Photographer).

Last year I recently shot a bit of professional work with an E10 and really came to appreciate being able to shoot from ankle-hight without getting on the floor. I loved shooting from waist-high without people knowing I was shooting at all. Having extra height without a stool is great, as I don't carry a stool or ladder around with me. As for focus, I trust my autofocus and a decent f-stop (which admittedly, doesn't work all the time), but it's better than laying on my stomach in the middle of the street. But then, I assume you'd have no problem with that.

I'll make do without the LCD viewer for now (yes, the powerbook image would be even better), but only because the Canon D60 doesn't have one at this time.

Nikon (F5) has had the waist-level viewfinder for years (can be used overhead, too) and it's in most professional gadget bags. Of course, Hass and other medium formats are usually used like this, too. Personally, I prefer a decent groundglass over an eyepiece anyday. Your milage may differ.

BTW, I've got 3 vertabrae fused in my neck, and really don't tilt well anymore, so it'd be an especially welcome addition.

bartone
http://www.bartone.com

John Davis said:

The LCD on a digital SLR is a side benefit to see the result
afterwards, the same way a Polaroid proof used to provide.

I think we are seeing here two different expectations. On one hand
the photographer who looks at a camera as a tool and on the other
the gadget-lover who looks at a camera as a toy.

John

Doug Warner said:

I'm Baaack.. and still harping on the live preview issue. But.
please, listen to this idea..

Yes, the CMOS sensor needs the shutter, and the mirror is in the way.

So, how about, as a means of composing non-eyelevel shots, include
a mode (in firmware) that, at half-press, trips the shutter and
copies the image to the LCD only. This image remains until the
next press, or until the shot is taken.

Options:
1. Continuous preview shots as the shutter is held at half press
(Yes, there will be a power consumption penalty)
2. Histogram overlay. (Get the exposure right before shooting)
3. Time lapse on change.( Shoot previews automatically, saving to
flash only when a pre-set percentage of the pixels change.

Of course, there would have to be a short delay, so if the shutter
was fully pressed, it would just go take the shot. Also, if it was
fully-pressed immediately after the preview shot, then the image
just taken would be saved.
Still, for no-compromise work, the preview mode would default to OFF.

It could be done strictly in firmware, no hardware changes needed,
no compromises in normal mode.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I do not need to vent my credentials and I respect yours. And yes, I have used LCDs in Nikons G1s and E10s and those are no replacement for a high-quality optical viewfinder, period.

And as someone said, if you need a preview take a shot, preview it and shoot again. I think the whole thing is silly. Either you want an SLR or not.

And BTW, please do not get upset. This is just an opinion, not a competition for ideas.

John

Laurence Bartone said:

First, if you've not used one, please refrain from such snapish
comments -- it belittles you and serves no positive purpose.
Second, if I'm a gadget-lover with a toy, check my site, client
list and awards (including tabletop photographer of the year by
American Photographer).

Last year I recently shot a bit of professional work with an E10
and really came to appreciate being able to shoot from ankle-hight
without getting on the floor. I loved shooting from waist-high
without people knowing I was shooting at all. Having extra height
without a stool is great, as I don't carry a stool or ladder around
with me. As for focus, I trust my autofocus and a decent f-stop
(which admittedly, doesn't work all the time), but it's better than
laying on my stomach in the middle of the street. But then, I
assume you'd have no problem with that.

I'll make do without the LCD viewer for now (yes, the powerbook
image would be even better), but only because the Canon D60 doesn't
have one at this time.

Nikon (F5) has had the waist-level viewfinder for years (can be
used overhead, too) and it's in most professional gadget bags. Of
course, Hass and other medium formats are usually used like this,
too. Personally, I prefer a decent groundglass over an eyepiece
anyday. Your milage may differ.

BTW, I've got 3 vertabrae fused in my neck, and really don't tilt
well anymore, so it'd be an especially welcome addition.

bartone
http://www.bartone.com

John Davis said:

The LCD on a digital SLR is a side benefit to see the result
afterwards, the same way a Polaroid proof used to provide.

I think we are seeing here two different expectations. On one hand
the photographer who looks at a camera as a tool and on the other
the gadget-lover who looks at a camera as a toy.

John

Doug Warner said:

I'm Baaack.. and still harping on the live preview issue. But.
please, listen to this idea..

Yes, the CMOS sensor needs the shutter, and the mirror is in the way.

So, how about, as a means of composing non-eyelevel shots, include
a mode (in firmware) that, at half-press, trips the shutter and
copies the image to the LCD only. This image remains until the
next press, or until the shot is taken.

Options:
1. Continuous preview shots as the shutter is held at half press
(Yes, there will be a power consumption penalty)
2. Histogram overlay. (Get the exposure right before shooting)
3. Time lapse on change.( Shoot previews automatically, saving to
flash only when a pre-set percentage of the pixels change.

Of course, there would have to be a short delay, so if the shutter
was fully pressed, it would just go take the shot. Also, if it was
fully-pressed immediately after the preview shot, then the image
just taken would be saved.
Still, for no-compromise work, the preview mode would default to OFF.

It could be done strictly in firmware, no hardware changes needed,
no compromises in normal mode.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I suppose someone else has already said this (I did read all the other posts) but why not just actually take the shot, look at it via the screen and do just what you are talking about? I do that all the time when I have the time to do what you are suggesting anyway. If I did not have the time for that, then you won't have the time for what you propose either.

Maybe you just need a faster CF card so you can see it quicker. Try Transcend 512mb.--GSmithCreate an image today that will make someone's day today.

Doug Warner said:

Member said:

Wouldn't it be easier to just have a mirror lock-up and the option
to preview with the mirror locked up?

Click to expand...

Can't be done with Canon's CMOS sensor. The shutter must be closed
to initialize the sensor prior to the shot.

Click to expand...

Perhaps this COULD be done with Foveon's X3 sensor. If so, this would be a preferrable way to handle it. If it can't, then the light path would have to be redirected to a second preview-only sensor.

JCDoss
--D30/BiG-ED28-135IS, 50/1.4

lhsmith said:

Since we're daydreaming here, I'm not gonna stop with some little
half-donkey 2-3 inch LCD :-(

Click to expand...

I'd prefer a smaller 3 or 4 inch LCD that can somehow stick on the camera for portability purposes. But if you want super-sized video, take the screen of your choice and hook it up via a video-out port. Problem solved (theoretically).

JCDoss--D30/BiG-ED28-135IS, 50/1.4

Doug,

First, let me say that I AGREE WHOLE-HEARTEDLY that we need some sort of live video preview (LCD or otherwise) in DSLRs. I think it's almost negligent to ignore the flexibility that digital can give by forcing photogs to use ONLY the optical viewfinder. As excellent as the optical viewfinders are, there are times when it's just not practical to use them... and there are other times when it's just easier to use an adjustable TTL display.

That said, the approach you're suggesting just doesn't make much sense.

Doug Warner said:

Member said:

I see very little difference between this and reviewing a normal
shot on the LCD.

Click to expand...

Actually taking the shot saves the image to flash, requiring extra
steps to delete the framing shots. Also, it reduces the buffer
capacity, making it more likely to miss the "real" shot when it
fills up. In preview mode, no space would be taken up on the flash
card until full press, and at most, one image worth of buffer space
would be used.

Click to expand...

It takes about an extra couple of seconds to delete the image if you don't like it. Buffer speed is probably not an issue if you're gonna take the time to view and ponder the image anyways. Both of these seem like "non-issues" to me. If time is an issue, you're more than likely gonna take a series of shots and keep the best one(s).

Member said:

Member said:

Member said:

1. Continuous preview shots as the shutter is held at half press

Click to expand...

Except that half-pressing does other things, like AF and metering.
How's that gonna happen with the mirror up and shutter open?

Click to expand...

The mirror, shutter, exposure systems all function exactly as they
do when taking regular shots. The only differece in half-press
preview mode is that the images taken are sent to the LCD and video
out only. I I suspect that you'd be able to get a fairly good frame
rate without having to compress/write the images to CF.

Click to expand...

If I understand you, half-press preview involves a continuous feed off the sensor to provide the live preview, correct? If this is so, then the mirror would have to be up, and the shutter would have to be open. In this case, neither AF or metering would be receiving any light. If your subject is static in unchanging light, then that doesn't matter. If your subject moves, or if the lighting changes, you'd have no way of compensating.

Member said:

Member said:

Member said:

2. Histogram overlay. (Get the exposure right before shooting)

Click to expand...

Again, same as taking the shot and reviewing.

Click to expand...

But it doesn't require wasting any space, switching to play mode,
deleting the unwanted shots, etc...

Click to expand...

Switching to play mode? Why not just activate instant review mode in the menu and delete shots as you take them (assuming you're not happy with them!). No need to keep going to play mode. Instant review is a wonderful thing.

JCDoss--D30/BiG-ED28-135IS, 50/1.4

Don Schultz said:

Am I missing something or would an angle finder C not do what your
asking?

Click to expand...

No, an Angle Finder C is not nearly as flexible as a flip/swivel viewfinder. Angle Finder C still requires your eye to be within a centimeter or two of the viewfinder. Further, it's only "flexible" in one of four positions (12:00, 3:00, 6:00, and 9:00). Not only that, but to change positions requires much more effort and time than simply moving an electronic display. It might provide some people with all the flexibility they need, but it can be MUCH better.

JCDoss--D30/BiG-ED28-135IS, 50/1.4

John Davis said:

What's going on here? The whole point of an SLR is its ability to
provide a preview through the lens optically in a screened dark
optical box. ...For a photographer there is no
visualization experience better than that.

Click to expand...

I don't think anyone was suggesting that the optical viewfinder be eliminated... but I think even you would agree that there are times when having one's face pressed against the back of the camera would not be the most ideal way of getting the shot.

TTL is TTL whether it's optical or digital. Optical is clearly superior (as of March, 2002), but there's no excuse for not having the option to use digital.

John Davis said:

I think we are seeing here two different expectations. On one hand
the photographer who looks at a camera as a tool and on the other
the gadget-lover who looks at a camera as a toy.

Click to expand...

Why are you attacking this idea? What do you have to lose if Canon offers a digital TTL viewfinding alternative? Would it injure you in some way?

JCDoss--D30/BiG-ED28-135IS, 50/1.4

Al Goldis said:

I agree. Even with all the complaints about the poor viewfinder
and screen of the D30/D60, to me, focusing with an LCD is not a
workable solution.

Click to expand...

Like Larry says, it depends at least in part on the size and quality of the screen. But even on a small screen, simply zooming in on the image ought to provide more control over fine focussing.

JCDoss--D30/BiG-ED28-135IS, 50/1.4

Timothy Schaffer said:

The camera already does something very similar to this, it's called
taking a picture.

Click to expand...

A bit kidding here? (-:

The idea is not as bad, but I see some other important problem. You need a very good LCD to control anything, either life or later...

I am actually using a G2 and I love the monitor which seems to be one out of the better ones... I can really get an rough impression of exposure and colour balance before taking a shot (don't laugh, I said a "rough impression" not a calibrated control...). This is not possible by just using the viewfinder...

Best regards, A. Schiele

George Smith said:

I suppose someone else has already said this (I did read all the
other posts) but why not just actually take the shot, look at it
via the screen and do just what you are talking about? I do that
all the time when I have the time to do what you are suggesting
anyway. If I did not have the time for that, then you won't have
the time for what you propose either.

Click to expand...

Yes, HAVING "the time" is indeed an issue. Not all subjects/"moments'"are static. You may have time for only one shot.

But even that one shot will have to be composed, and focused. If these things can be done with the "viewfinder" or "ground-glass" remote from the camera (and enLARGED). there are many applications where this would be a plus.

This is why a true "live feed" is preferable to a shoot, then shoot-again approach.

The simple fact that there are many applications where this facility would NOT be useful does not, as some seem to suggest, make the whole idea "silly".

Interesting that someone who simply does not have a "need" for something can't seem to acknowledge its merit for others. What's the problem here, ...painted into a corner? (NOT speaking of George!)

The "SLR" element is required for it's thru-the-lens view, ...NOT because of the manner in which that view is presented.

Larry

alfred_schiele said:

The idea is not as bad, but I see some other important problem. You
need a very good LCD to control anything, either life or later...

I am actually using a G2 and I love the monitor which seems to be
one out of the better ones... I can really get an rough impression
of exposure and colour balance before taking a shot (don't laugh, I
said a "rough impression" not a calibrated control...). This is not
possible by just using the viewfinder...

Click to expand...

Hi AS,

And that useful "rough impression" would become an even-more-useful BETTER impression of the image if it were larger, and presented on a high-res monitor or laptop.

In fact, it would be as good an "impression" as we are ever going to get, during the whole PS-or-other "processing" of the image before printing.

Couldn't hurt (except the pocketbook) ...could only help-when-needed.

Larry

John Davis said:

I do not need to vent my credentials and I respect yours.

Click to expand...

Maybe we have a semantics-problem here. "Respect" is a little hard to discern if, when others patiently explain why they feel a certain feature could be useful TO THEM, one constantly re-iterates that the "whole thing is silly".

John Davis said:

And yes,
I have used LCDs in Nikons G1s and E10s and those are no
replacement for a high-quality optical viewfinder, period.

Click to expand...

No one is suggesting that the "high quality optical viewfinder" be removed from the camera, ...it CERTAINLY has its uses (especially if it really IS "high quality" ...many are not!)

John Davis said:

And as someone said, if you need a preview take a shot, preview it
and shoot again.

Click to expand...

My post to George, below, proposes that this is NOT always a workable method.

John Davis said:

I think the whole thing is silly. Either you want
an SLR or not.

Click to expand...

Would you believe we want an SLR with an additional capability?
Why does this upset any applecarts?

John Davis said:

And BTW, please do not get upset. This is just an opinion, not a
competition for ideas.

Click to expand...

Not upset, ...just remembering that this forum offers an EXCHANGE of ideas, with consideration-of-new/other-viewpoints making growth and expanded thinking possible.

Unless one takes the position that his original premise is not-to-be-modified regardless of any input.

In other words, ...""My idea is a "yes", ...and any/all subsequent presentations are "no'"s!" If you have a different opinion from mine, ...then it is a "silly" one.""

I think that's where the "competition" thing comes in.

Interesting that you should bring it up ;-)

Larry

Larry H. Smith said:

Hi AS,

And that useful "rough impression" would become an even-more-useful
BETTER impression of the image if it were larger, and presented on
a high-res monitor or laptop.

Click to expand...

Big applause, but I personally wouldn't like to carry a laptop as a better preview monitor 8)=

But I can really imagine that some pro's would like or even do so...

Regards A. Schiele

Interesting Larry... it appears that you can express different opinions but I cannot. GMAB.

I confess that I am not open to all ideas that come down the pike, particularly when it is just piling up of features, just because one can. I am more of the Leitz school, where simple excellence is better.

John

lhsmith said:

John Davis said:

I do not need to vent my credentials and I respect yours.

Click to expand...

Maybe we have a semantics-problem here. "Respect" is a little hard
to discern if, when others patiently explain why they feel a
certain feature could be useful TO THEM, one constantly re-iterates
that the "whole thing is silly".

Larry H. Smith said:

And yes,
I have used LCDs in Nikons G1s and E10s and those are no
replacement for a high-quality optical viewfinder, period.

Click to expand...

No one is suggesting that the "high quality optical viewfinder" be
removed from the camera, ...it CERTAINLY has its uses (especially
if it really IS "high quality" ...many are not!)

Larry H. Smith said:

And as someone said, if you need a preview take a shot, preview it
and shoot again.

Click to expand...

My post to George, below, proposes that this is NOT always a
workable method.

Larry H. Smith said:

I think the whole thing is silly. Either you want
an SLR or not.

Click to expand...

Would you believe we want an SLR with an additional capability?
Why does this upset any applecarts?

Larry H. Smith said:

And BTW, please do not get upset. This is just an opinion, not a
competition for ideas.

Click to expand...

Not upset, ...just remembering that this forum offers an EXCHANGE
of ideas, with consideration-of-new/other-viewpoints making growth
and expanded thinking possible.

Unless one takes the position that his original premise is
not-to-be-modified regardless of any input.

In other words, ...""My idea is a "yes", ...and any/all subsequent
presentations are "no'"s!" If you have a different opinion from
mine, ...then it is a "silly" one.""

I think that's where the "competition" thing comes in.

Interesting that you should bring it up ;-)

Larry

Click to expand...

Canon needs to bring that "see-thru" mirror to the digital world. Some one technical help me out here I can't remember what camera they have that mirror on. The RS is it?

alfred_schiele said:

alfred_schiele said:

Hi AS,

And that useful "rough impression" would become an even-more-useful
BETTER impression of the image if it were larger, and presented on
a high-res monitor or laptop.

Click to expand...

Big applause, but I personally wouldn't like to carry a laptop as a
better preview monitor 8)=

But I can really imagine that some pro's would like or even do so...

Regards A. Schiele

Click to expand...