Sensor in Nikon D3 is Canon made!

Dredman said:

I have a good friend who is an engineer for Canon USA, and he heard
that Canon and Nikon collaborated in designing the sensor for the new
Full Frame Nikon... Canon is the "silent partner" on the new sensor.

I could hardly believe it at first, but it makes sense if you think
about it... If you are the only one to ever adopt a technology, then
there is always a lingering thought that maybe it isn't the best way
to go (think Sigma and Fovian). Canon needed another company to go
FF to legitimize their leadership and show how forward thinking they
have been.

The benefits to Nikon are obvious (great new camera, a jump-start
into new technology with FF and cmos) but the benefits to Canon are
real too... I mean, this shows that they have been ahead of the
game for years , and they get in on the details of the latest and
greatest Nikon...

Without competition, a market languishes... That is part of why
Canon needs Nikon to be in the game, just like Microsoft needs
Apple to be competitive in an interesting way. (not to competative,
mind you)

It is a gamble for both companies, but I bet it pays off for both of
them too!

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If its true, then may a flying monkey fly up my butt and take up residence there. Oh by the way, I have a friend, who has a friend, that heard from a buddy that works at Corning Glass, you know the company that makes all of CAnon's lens. And he said that Nikon was buying up all the sand in the world so no more glass could be made. Then they were going to blackmail Corning, the company that makes lens for Canon. Once blackmailed they were going to force Canon to give them all the old D30 sensors to put in their "professional line" of cameras. I am so worried that by having Canon stuff, I am losing out by not switching to Nikon. HELP Long time watcher, first time poster.

--
JB Faulconer

I believe that. I also heard that Nikon is now making all of Canon's lenses. Where does all of this garbage come from?
--
Respond to rudeness with civility, it really annoys them.

Regards,

JR

...(D3 and D300) are Nikon designs.

Bjorn, writng on nikongear.com, from the release in Tokyo:

"Insights by Nikon chief executives indicate that Nikon has "recirculated" their LBCAST technology into the production of the new sensors, both of which are designed by Nikon".

--
Take care,
Jorgen

Probere necesse est.....

Imagined it went like this:

Canon exec to Nikon exec: if we make a FF sensor for you are you willing to do us a favour and design a proper AF-ON button for us??

they agreed to switch some parts for the next body they released,
for canon being 1D mark III
and nikon 3D

so all the problems with the 1D mark III are caused by badly designed parts from nikon

and the nikon 3D got cutting edge parts from canon

i think this will sound logical to canonian

Well yes, and I will explain:

There has been much "discussion" as of late on how one non-existant camera is better then another non-existant camera or vis versa. many people seem to be quite sure of a lot of things that I see no direct evidence for, and they are passionate about sharing their "knowledge"

I thought I would start a discussion about the possibility of Nikon and Canon collaborating on some aspect of a camera, but thought that if I stated it as I just did, that so many people would immediately jump to the "no chance" conclusion that I needed to state it more strongly (plus, it has been quite entertaining, don't you think?)

In the absence of any real information, why are so many people so sure that it would be impossible? Cognitave dissonance? Cameras aren't even the largest sector of Canon's bussness! Why not sell an expensive product to another company and make a profit of it? If it crushes some other competition at the same time (Sony, pentax, Oly) all the better!

anyway... as a thought experiment, and a discussion of corporate philosophy and what may be possible, the number of responses is the key metric for measuring the success of the original post

and I would have to judge this experiment a success

in short, I don't actually have any inside information, but nor did I read any response that showed this hidden partnership could not be, or even wouldn't be mutually benaficial for the most part.

If people want more consistent factual content, look somewhere other then a speculative internet forum!

Thanks for the fun responses!

D

Joe Marques said:

Joe

Dredman said:

Wow, you must read a lot to have read all the stupid posts in the
last five years! I have read some really stupid posts just in the
last 6 months!

So stupid that it got over 25 responses in an hour...
Interesting... I wonder how it would fly on the Nikon forums?!?

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Interesting thread.

As far as I can remember (I am not a photo-tech historian and I haven't done my homerwork ;-) ), there seems to be a pattern, may be showing a long-term co-operation between Canon and Nikon to create new markets.

USM, first introduced by Canon and Nikon entering the market with AF-S when more mature; same with IS and VR. Again, provided I am not wrong with the actual dates.

And now, Canon has created a market for FF DSLRs which Nikon enters 5 years afterwards.

I'd like to believe that the initial technology R&D might be joined, then the engineering and the (heavy) investments in creating the new markets are supported by the larger Canon. Canon keeping the exclusivity for an agreed number of years.

Both are winning.

So, why not a Canon-made sensor in the D3 or a Nikon-design in the original 1Ds ?

But well, the truth is out there... we'll never know

Best regards,

Derek

To clarify things and avoid any misunderstanding: the intent of this post is humourous ;-)

Lictor said:

That's not enough for a company who has to plan ahead for years...
You just don't go for the best deal, you go for the best deal that
won't hurt you next year.
It's just when picking a business partner. You don't pick the
cheapest partner or the most competitive one, you pick the one that
won't try to stab you in the back.

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Yes, that's right, the best product for them includes support, development road maps, especially for high value items like steppers. But it's still, in the end the best product for them at the best (not necessarily lowest) price. But it's a hard headed commercial decision in the end, and doesn't imply that Sony is packed with Nikon fans.

Lictor said:

Who spoke of blackmail?
Educated people don't blackmail each others. They just know what's in
the other's best interest and they know the other knows they know.
Once two companies have reached a point where any move away from the
status quo will compromise both of their business, they can have a
stable business relationship.

That's the situation between Sony and Nikon. They both need each
other. They both compete on a market where they can afford to compete
without too much damage. They both know that picking another partner
would be more trouble than gain.

See? No need to blackmail or anything. It's not blackmail, just
consequences if either Sony or Nikon should make a move away from the
virtous circle.

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Well blackmail seems to be the flavour of comments in your previous post, still if you didn't mean it that way, I obviously misinterpreted. I would suspect the sensor collaboration between S and N is even closer than you are suggesting, and more strategic, but more a marriage of convenience, for now, than an unbreakable status quo. I wouln't be surprised at all to see the D3x and the A500(?) share the same 20+MP sensor, based around a pixel scaled version of the D3 sensor. I suspect that sensor used at least some Sony IPR in any case, and I shouldn't think Sony would mind at all if it was fabbed at Canon, if that turned out to be the best deal, or it's CMOS fabs were full providing APS sensors for Sony, Nikon, Pentax, Samsung and vidcams.

Lictor said:

Well, maybe they could, but the important question is not if they
could, but why . Why would they go to the trouble of doing that when
neither of them needs to? Why would they risk losing trade secrets
or public credibility when there is so little to gain?
I mean, does Canon really need money so badly or sell so little
cameras that they would need to act as a basic outsourced facility -
that's for companies in Third World countries, not for a major
Japanese company!

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Many major Japanese and American companies run foundry fab lines. Few third world companies can afford the investment a fab line needs. For a company such as Canon a fab line is a huge investment, and they need to keep it running 24/7 to pay its way. If that means running foundry services, they would do it. It's to do with commercial common sense, not status. I don't think the IPR is an issue. Canon would put none of it's IPR at risk by fabbing Nikon sensors. The risk would be Nikon's, but Canon know how to make CMOS sensors anyway, they would be unlikely to learn much more about Nikon's design if they fabbed it than they would by slicing one up and putting it under a (Nikon) microscope, and if they did try to rip off that knowledge, they would have no defence in the ensuing court case. It's fairly likely that Nikon took a pretty close look at Canon sensors when the designed their own in any case.

Lictor said:

Likewise, why would Nikon turn to Canon to do something dozens of
less problematic companies can do? I mean, Nikon has everything -
steppers, sensor design... They just lack the actual workforce to do
the job. Why link themselves and become dependant to a competitor
when they could just hire a handful of "nameless third parties" to do
the job...

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I very much doubt whether Nikon would see it like that. Why would Canon be any more problematic than any of the other multinationals, which compete in one area or another, which they are quite happy to do business with. In particular, if looking for a CMOS sensor fab line, why not choose the best, which is clearly Canon. Establishing a fab line is a lot more than just adding a workforce to steppers and design, and I would very much doubt that Nikon has the volume to justify such an expenditure, so they are clearly in the market for foundry services, and Canon, if they had the capacity, would be an excellent provider (that's not to say they actually did use Canon - we have no hard information). Outsourcing is part of the Japanese way of doing business. Your Canon camera will be full of components from Matsushita (who own Panasonic and prop up Olympus and the 4/3 group), Mitsubishi (who own Nikon), Sony (who own Sony) and several other of the zaibatsu. Thay have no difficulty supplying Canon, and Canon would have no difficulty supplying them.

Again, that's not to say that this is what has happened, just that there's no reason why it's impossible or even unlikely.

--
Bob

This is priceless! LOL! This is the sort of response my original post deserves! Everyone else is to serious! what does it matter? My D300 still makes great images! go shoot some photos and get back to me!

D

Well said! From most posts read sofar, I find yours to be the most intriquing. That said, I still don't believe the sensor was made by Canon.

Ron Parr said:

I find your explanation absurd, but there is one thing that makes the
possibility worth considering for a moment's amusement: A lot of
people see Nikon and Canon as the big competitors in the camera game,
but they're both likely afraid of Sony. Sony supplies the sensors
for their small cameras, supplies them for Pentax and Samsung SLRs,
and is gearing up to be a major competitor in the SLR business,
leveraging their sensor manufacturing prowess, body-mounted
anti-shake technology, and relationship with Zeiss. The money that
Nikon and Canon are currently giving Sony is helping to fund Sony's
investment in their SLR business, and Nikon and Canon know it.

With all of that said, I still find it very implausible that Nikon
and Canon are ready cooperate and I find it implausible that any
cooperation would take this form, with Nikon execs openly gloating
about a perceived lead over Canon and the F3 sensor specs looking so
different from Canon's offerings.

--
Ron Parr
Digital Photography FAQ:
http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/

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--
Olivia
British Columbia

It was "now we've put a print button on it, what do you do with it?"

Actually, CMOS image sensors, although based on standard CMOS, and therefore a lot easier to get than CCD processes, are somewhat specialist, for a few reasons:

• need mixed signal CMOS
• need huge chips (by computer chip standrads - Intel or AMD wouldn't dream of releasing a CPU with a 24x36mm chip)
• need to deposit coulour filter and microlenses on top
• probably a few other things that someone who knew what they ar talking about would know.

There are a few CMOS image sensor foundries around, but not a lot. In any case, Intal and AMD's fabs are in use full time churnig out computer chips, and DSLR sensors are tiny business compared with those.

I really don't think Canon would find it in any way demeaning to fab for other companies. They had no qualms with supplying HP and Apple with laser printing technology for years as a 'faceless' partner, and HP is certainly one of their major competitors in the printer market.
--
Bob

If you look on the DPVehicle discussion forums you'll find a whole thread on the VW topics on how there's no way that VW would produce the Ford Galaxy. Must be right, no company would collaborate with its major competitor. Likewise, on the DPAeroEngine site on how GE couldn't possibly collaborate with P&W or RR
--
Bob

Well... an interesting discussion!

Thanks to all who gave this some honest thought, and to those who saw some of the potential humor in the structure of the debate (zero information available, all passionately defended!)

see:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=24584047

for more info from my end.

D

That what I read on Bjorn's site. It must be right.

It totally makes sense........

It just goes to show how brand loyalty dominates people using cameras.

Maybe this is true and maybe it isn't ...but what I'm really shocked about is the fact that people are so brand loyal. "Canon won't make such a thing for Nikon, NEVER!!" "Nikon has all to gain and nothing to give, this is BS!" "Canon is the leader, of course they wouldn't give them their trade secrets"

What Mike states is true. Sony makes CCD's for a whole lot of cameras companies out there. Intel makes CPU cores for Apple, IBM makes a whole lot of stuff for other companies, Nikon makes camera bodies for Fuji, Let's check the larger industry of cars.....Toyota makes cars for Chevy (or is it vice versa), Renault makes engines Nissan, Isuzu made cars for Honda. Sure some are directly and indirectly competing against each other, but it is a business. Its all about profit.

Canon is not just a camera company, but also a camera sensor maker. If they just used only their sensors in their bodies, they would sell a whole lot less sensors. But if they got everyone else using it......that would be a successful business. Let's say all the camera companies start using Canon CMOS sensors.......why would all the other companies want to use Canon sensors? Because it will give Canon the title as being the best sensor makers with the best TECH. I think that would sell more canon equipment in the long run.

Just 2 cents.............and like i said, who knows if Canon is making the FX sensor is true or not, but makes a lot of sense to me.

But please don't bring over the iDrive!

Lictor said:

zakk9 said:

This doesn't make it more true, but it's certainly possible. For
Nikon, it makes a lot of sense. Being dependent upon one supplier
only is rather dangerous.

Click to expand...

You mean, it's more dangerous to be dependant on one supplier that it
also dependant on you as its supplier (steppers) while it would be
safer to be dependant on your main competitor?

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Things change, and sometimes they change fast. Having alternative sources is mostly a good thing.

--
Jorgen, my name is Jorgen

Yeah, Right!
and China design and built the fleet of NASA Space Shuttles!

--
ecube

ecube said:

Yeah, Right!
and China design and built the fleet of NASA Space Shuttles!

Click to expand...

Here is a link of interest
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-8742-9083

About 2 weeks ago, Nikon's pattent on a Full Color RGB Sensor was reported (here in DPReview). Perhaps, that is the sensor used in the D3 and D300.

I also would not be surprise if Fuji will introduce 35mm FF equivalent using the Nikon sensor. My oracle suggests a 24 megapix within 2 years. - - just a wishful thinking.
--
ecube