Quashing Rumors and such, what everyone should know.

JRG-Imaging

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There's been alot of D60 vs. D30 debates. a lot of them rehashed over and over and over again.

So lets look at a few points. I'll include my experience with the 1d and film cameras.

1) has digital replaced film?
  • In a word, yes. Digital cameras have replaced point and shoot compact cameras almost completely. However there is a very steep learning curve when using digital cameras, many problems and opportunities arise that, if one is unable to figure out or know's where to look for solutions will be daunting. Our instore point and shoot figures are down from last year, while digital sales are way up!
2) does digital look the same as film?
  • no. digital looks different, and always will. this is not to say it's better or worse, but it will always look different and trained lab techs can usually spot the difference between a digital print and a film print done on the same machine with the same paper. this is assuming a digital minilab machine.
3) what does 3072x2048 (6mp resolution) mean to me?
  • before last year's crop of consumer-priced 4000 dpi scanners, 3072x2048 was the resolution the 2700 dpi scanners put out. This is also the exact same resolution as PhotoCD scans (NOT ProPhotoCD). what does this mean to you? well if you have to work digitally it's more cost effective and you will get better results if your original is a file of this size, not a scanned image of this size. the 4000 dpi scanners now are resolving more detail than a negative can usually hold, and is why they all have GEM (grain equalization managemant) software - they are essentially scanning the grain structure itself.
4) what is a consumer (prosumer) slr body, a professional slr body, and why are they different?
  • a consumer/prosumer slr body is low in cost to produce and retail. they are made of polycarbonate plastic shells. some of the better consumer cameras (labelled 'prosumer' by the catch phrase happy media) have magnesium chassis with polycarbonate shells. Professional bodies are generally made of magnesium (or steel in the case of manul slr's). the difference? there are several. Consumer cameras are designed with the 4-10 rolls per month user. they provide everything a user will need, which is essentially a light tight box with a shutter and a mirror (and a CCD in the case of DSLR's), advanced metering, small motor drives, ae lock, af lock, etc. they use optical af systems, meaning they need visible light to focus and do not use any through the lens infra red focusing. they all feature some form of focus tracking, which works fine when your subject moves around your focusing area but not too well when moving toward/away from the camera. professional slr's have longer life shutters, most rated at 1.5 to 2x the cycles of consumer/prosumer shutters. they have the most advanced matrix/evaluative metering systems, faster mirror return times, quicker motor drives and the most add on accessories of the consumer cameras. their focusing is designed to track fast moving objects, although still not flawless.
 
4) magnesium? polycarbonate? speak english!
  • magnesium is a softer and ligher than steel metal that absorbs shock and can prevent extensive damage to the interior electronices and mechanisms of the bodies they are made of. however they can dent or crack and constitutes an expensive repair. polycarbonate is a very flexible carbon fibre style plastic. it's light but strong and absorbs much more of the impact shock than magnesium. the worst thing that can happen to a dropped polycarbonate camera is the shell coming apart at the seems. the merits of both have already proven, so which one is right for you is subjective.
5) pricing?
  • let's look at a few things. first film. most point and shoot cameras cost $100-$300. consumer slr's start at $400 (with lenses) and go to $600. professional bodies start at $1000, and end at $2000.
Digicams (point and shoots) start at $300 and go to $1000, consumer based DSLR's start at $1400 and go to $2200. professional DSLR's start at $4500 and up. digicams are based on unique bodies. consumer/prosumer DSLR bodies are based on previous film versions, even if unique in physical appearance, which start at about $500 before you add the digital goodness to them. the professional bodies are based on the F100 (D1h, D1x) which is a $1000 body, F5 (DCS760) which is a $2000 body, and the EOS-1V (EOS-1d) which is a $2200 body (with power drive). the difference in price between a D60 and a 1D is the same as an Elan 7 and a 1V. if you put this in perspective the whole AF/SPEED/DURABILITY issues that see 3-5 posts hourly here will make more sense. All of the professional DSLR's retain everything that their film counterparts did. this is also true of the consumer slr's. therefore if your Elan 7 or your N80 works like poop indoors with that nice plastic 28-80 4-5.6 lens it came with, dont expect the digital slr's to work any better.

7) then why cant the consumer SLR's be lowered in price.
  • this is politics, plain and simple. it prob only costs canon about $800 to manufactur the D60, but if they start selling it at that price the film makers will have them for dinner! digital cameras cut out the extreme (average 70% margins) profitibility of film sales and processing. add to the fact that those skilled in color management and computers in general can make pleasing prints at home that can, at many times, rival what a lab can do. this simple fact has put several other photofinishing businesses OUT of business near me.
so please read all of this before we start anymore 'D60 af not up to par' threads, ok? i know many of you have never owned an SLR beyond your dad's AE-1, or SRT-101, or Nikon F before.

and if you really really think the af on these cameras is bad, go into your store and play with a pentax SLR. you wont feel so bad :)

Jeff
 
regards to all the postings about third party D60 and 1D raw converters....

canon has already stated that the SDK (software developers' kit) for both of these raw's on MAC and PC platforms will be released mid april.

it's not april yet, so relax ok? :)
 
I hope those developers can develop quickly!

Fortunately, the 1D Canon software isn't that bad at all.

Is the D-60 software really that much worse than the 1D?
regards to all the postings about third party D60 and 1D raw
converters....

canon has already stated that the SDK (software developers' kit)
for both of these raw's on MAC and PC platforms will be released
mid april.

it's not april yet, so relax ok? :)
--The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.netPhotography -- just another word for compromise
 
I must disagree with this. There are still a lot of film P&S cameras sold. Until you can just drop to CF off at Walmart and get pictures back the next day, Digital will not replace P&S for the masses. Uploading too too hard and printing is out of the question.
Jeff Graeber wrote:
1) has digital replaced film?
In a word, yes. Digital cameras have replaced point and shoot compact
cameras almost completely.
--RZ http://www.romeozulu.com/photos
 
er i work in san francisco bay area's largest photo retail store, is how i have my figures.

you may not be able to get your shots in an hour, but we do them next day from your cf cards :)
Jeff Graeber wrote:
1) has digital replaced film?
In a word, yes. Digital cameras have replaced point and shoot compact
cameras almost completely.
In a word yes!!?? Where did you get these figures from?
Bud
 
er i work in san francisco bay area's largest photo retail store,
is how i have my figures.

you may not be able to get your shots in an hour, but we do them
next day from your cf cards :)
Jeff, maybe it seems like everyone is using digital beacause of your closeness to it every day, but I can assure you, digital has not replaced film for the majority of picture takers. You know, the ones with christmas on both ends of the roll, and summer in between. Digital is just to confusing and expensive for the average guy or gal on the street.
Bud
Jeff Graeber wrote:
1) has digital replaced film?
In a word, yes. Digital cameras have replaced point and shoot compact
cameras almost completely.
In a word yes!!?? Where did you get these figures from?
Bud
 
in that sense then, bud, we can safely say that 110 is still going strong and will remain so?

however arguing these semantics wasnt the point of the post. too many posters on this forum have never owned an slr or anything beyond a simple point and shoot (or the good old minolta that would say to you 'low light, use frash') and there's so many arguments about the focusing of consumer bodied DSLR's.

i was pointing out the differences here. however i can tell you that all the retailers that have closed down did so because they did not plan accordingly for digital.
er i work in san francisco bay area's largest photo retail store,
is how i have my figures.

you may not be able to get your shots in an hour, but we do them
next day from your cf cards :)
Jeff, maybe it seems like everyone is using digital beacause of
your closeness to it every day, but I can assure you, digital has
not replaced film for the majority of picture takers. You know,
the ones with christmas on both ends of the roll, and summer in
between. Digital is just to confusing and expensive for the average
guy or gal on the street.
Bud
Jeff Graeber wrote:
1) has digital replaced film?
In a word, yes. Digital cameras have replaced point and shoot compact
cameras almost completely.
In a word yes!!?? Where did you get these figures from?
Bud
 
You can drop off your CF and get 1 hour printing at many Costco and Ritz store as well...
I must disagree with this. There are still a lot of film P&S
cameras sold. Until you can just drop to CF off at Walmart and get
pictures back the next day...
Ummm. I can drop off a CF at my Walmart and get prints. They have a
Fuji Frontier....
 
OK, I stand corrected.

I was in a Ritz (don't ask why) the other day and someone asked the sales person how many digital vs film P&S cameras they sell. He said that they still sell more FIlm than Digital by about 2 to 1.

I don't have any doubt that 35mm film is dying fast, but I think we underestimate the masses. Drop by your local mall camera store and just watch. See how many people go in a buy a film camera.

The bottom line for them is about developing. It's nice to see that you can drop a CF off at Walmart. I'll have to give that a try and see. How does the pricing compare to buying a roll of film plus developing? Remember, for the masses, you can't use the "only print what you want" argument, because they aren't going to copy them onto a PC, they are going to shoot and print.
I must disagree with this. There are still a lot of film P&S
cameras sold. Until you can just drop to CF off at Walmart and get
pictures back the next day...
Ummm. I can drop off a CF at my Walmart and get prints. They have a
Fuji Frontier....
--RZ http://www.romeozulu.com/photos
 
I know many of you have never owned an SLR beyond your dad's AE-1
How did you know that? You are right! Dad's AE-1 "Program" SLR, actually ;) It would be nice to jump up to the D60 though. I agree with you that digital is the way to go.

Thanks for the posting, Jeff.

-Jagan
 
Is the D-60 software really that much worse than the 1D?
canon has already stated that the SDK (software developers' kit)
for both of these raw's on MAC and PC platforms will be released
mid april.

it's not april yet, so relax ok? :)
IF the D60 raw-conversion IS as bad as people are saying (I don't have one), then: How does the fact that Canon may enable SOMEONE ELSE to do-it-right, excuse them for not doing-it-right in the first place?

I've seen comments in these forums before that would seem to indicate that those amazing Canon engineers (the same ones who can do magic with digital-camera design) CAN'T or won't figure-out the software/processing stuff.

Something's not right with this picture, ...what's going on?

Larry
 
I don't have the D60, either.

But, Canon's never been know for great software. (At least the 1D software is useable).

There isn't really an excuse. They should get smart, and hire some 3rd-party firm BEFORE the camera is released to make some truly excellent software for their digital cameras.
IF the D60 raw-conversion IS as bad as people are saying (I don't
have one), then: How does the fact that Canon may enable SOMEONE
ELSE to do-it-right, excuse them for not doing-it-right in the
first place?

I've seen comments in these forums before that would seem to
indicate that those amazing Canon engineers (the same ones who can
do magic with digital-camera design) CAN'T or won't figure-out the
software/processing stuff.

Something's not right with this picture, ...what's going on?
--The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.netPhotography -- just another word for compromise
 
2) does digital look the same as film?
  • no. digital looks different, and always will. this is not to say
it's better or worse, but it will always look different and trained
lab techs can usually spot the difference between a digital print
and a film print done on the same machine with the same paper.
What specifically is that difference?

If you were to see two shots by, say, Jay Maisel on a web site somewhere -- one image having come from a digital original (Nikon D1 or whatever he's using now), the other having been scanned from a 35mm transparency -- would you know the difference? Now imagine the same two shots not as images on a web site, but inkjet-printed. Would you know the differences? Again, what would they be?
 
shoot a slide of something, then shoot it digitally.

the slide will look very 3 dimensional. digital can not reproduce depth like film can, even negative film.

that's really the only major difference.

the others are that digital looks sharper. with hand done processing 8x10's from my 35mm stuff shot with a leica M6 still dont look as sharp as my well processed digital stuff printed at home. to some it's too sharp and they dont like it.

however the above is entirely subjective. you may or may not notice a difference, depending on your experience in this field.
2) does digital look the same as film?
  • no. digital looks different, and always will. this is not to say
it's better or worse, but it will always look different and trained
lab techs can usually spot the difference between a digital print
and a film print done on the same machine with the same paper.
What specifically is that difference?

If you were to see two shots by, say, Jay Maisel on a web site
somewhere -- one image having come from a digital original (Nikon
D1 or whatever he's using now), the other having been scanned from
a 35mm transparency -- would you know the difference? Now imagine
the same two shots not as images on a web site, but inkjet-printed.
Would you know the differences? Again, what would they be?
 
Mike, on the web you won't be able to see a difference, on a print, depending on a persons experience, you will see a difference, on the digital print you will see a softness or smoothness that you won't see in film (provided the lens and other variables remain the same) It also depends on the scanner and the digital capture method (cmos/ccd). The size of the print also makes a difference. On a small 4 X 6 or 5 X 7 print the two will look pretty much the same, on larger prints the film resolution will pull ahead until you get to the point where the grain is a problem, then both formats suffer and it's time to consider a larger imaging chip or larger film.

Bud
2) does digital look the same as film?
  • no. digital looks different, and always will. this is not to say
it's better or worse, but it will always look different and trained
lab techs can usually spot the difference between a digital print
and a film print done on the same machine with the same paper.
What specifically is that difference?

If you were to see two shots by, say, Jay Maisel on a web site
somewhere -- one image having come from a digital original (Nikon
D1 or whatever he's using now), the other having been scanned from
a 35mm transparency -- would you know the difference? Now imagine
the same two shots not as images on a web site, but inkjet-printed.
Would you know the differences? Again, what would they be?
 
i wouldnt go buy what that salesperson says.

ritz camera works on a spiff program. they get a specific dollar value for the cameras they sell. because the profit margins on point and shoot and film slr's is much higher than anything digital atm, they get higher spiffs and will tell you things like this to get you to buy it i'm afraid.

me personally i'd prefer you go home with what you need, not what you want, and not feel the need to bring it back the next day or walk out of my store feeling cheated.

digicam sales outpace point and shoot sales. digital slr sales do not outpace filim slr sales. in fact the nikon N80 is flying off our shelf at $399 plus a $50 mail in rebate.
I was in a Ritz (don't ask why) the other day and someone asked the
sales person how many digital vs film P&S cameras they sell. He
said that they still sell more FIlm than Digital by about 2 to 1.

I don't have any doubt that 35mm film is dying fast, but I think we
underestimate the masses. Drop by your local mall camera store and
just watch. See how many people go in a buy a film camera.

The bottom line for them is about developing. It's nice to see
that you can drop a CF off at Walmart. I'll have to give that a
try and see. How does the pricing compare to buying a roll of film
plus developing? Remember, for the masses, you can't use the "only
print what you want" argument, because they aren't going to copy
them onto a PC, they are going to shoot and print.
I must disagree with this. There are still a lot of film P&S
cameras sold. Until you can just drop to CF off at Walmart and get
pictures back the next day...
Ummm. I can drop off a CF at my Walmart and get prints. They have a
Fuji Frontier....
--
RZ
http://www.romeozulu.com/photos
 

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