I don't think APS-C will ever go away. It is simplt too useful for people using really long telephotos. If I ever buy a full frame DSLR I will keep a SR supported APS-C DSLR for wildlife...
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Nikon Full Frame
- Thread starter Anastigmat
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Not really. For a certain output size you magnify optical defects 50% less with a FF camera than with the APS format. This is why medium format lenses doersn't have to be as good as 35mm system lenses and why APS is more demanding for lenses than film was.
Apparently not. According to Rob Galbraith the D3 uses a Nikon designed sensor. This also seems to be different from the situation with the D2x sensor, which I believe was jointly designed with Sony but only time will tell:
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-8742-9083
"While it's widely known that Nikon uses sensors designed by Sony in most of its digital SLRs, the D3's sensor is an original Nikon design. The only other digital SLR models to also feature a sensor created by Nikon are the D2H and D2Hs, and as with those models, Nikon isn't revealing their manufacturing partner. The D3's sensor has a pixel pitch of 8.45µm and utilizes 12-channel readout to enable its 9 fps burst rate at full resolution."
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reygon
Senior Member
It's called business opportunity dude. I'm 110% sure Pentax is in this business for money, right? If you people say 'no' then that is a big lie or denial.
If they want more share of the market they must not stop on the K10D level. If Pentax can produce K10D then why not step up to the next level? Just imagine a Penax Pro DSLR that will be $400 to X dollars cheaper. Just like LCD TV LG or a Samsung LCD TV that are X dollars cheaper than Sony the result gave a dent to Sony's market share.
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The first *istD costed $1500 if I'm not mistaken and a EOS5 cost 2100; not much of a difference. Sensor prices will continue to drop - also full frame. The D3 will have a major impact on the industry and if Sony make FF too, anyone who wants to be a real contender have to join.
Anastigmat
Forum Pro
The D3 is indeed much more expensive than the 5D. However, if you compare the price of the D3 with that of the D2X, there is very little difference. Considering the additional features found in the D3 but not in the D2X, full frame DSLR has fallen dramatically in price indeed.
For now, full frame is being marketed as flagship models, and costing several times as much as even the most expensive APS-C models. Nevertheless, the 5D is only about twice as much as the 40D. I think that is pretty good value for the money.
That seems unlikely. Pentax is unlikely to find a source of cheap full frame sensors in such a short period of time unless Samsung can step up and help.
That is a common misconception. Take the D2X and the D3 for example, the D2X has about the same number of pixels as the D3, packed onto a sensor that is approximately half the surface area of the D3 sensor. The D2x therefore would demand more of lenses than the D3, but not vice versa. To give a more extreme example. Consider the 12mp sensors found in the compact digitals. Do they really demand less on lenses than a full frame D3? Of course not! And that is because the 12mp are packed into a much smaller sensor than even an APS-C sized sensor. Full frame in fact do not require limited lenses. APS-C sensors OTOH put much more demand on lenses.
So, you can either spend more money on * and LE lenses so they can perform well on a camera with a small sensor, or get a full frame and get good performance from good and average lenses alike.
I'm not so sure. I'm certain theres a market for someone who wants the image quality of FF camera and not need the speed. The D3 is obviously built for speed targeting Nikons core pro users but I believe the market for a "slower" FF camera is even larger.
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Hi Brett,
Interesting point about the tactile feel of the Limiteds being more important than absolute IQ, especially since I don’t do much manual focussing these days.
BTW I wasn't implying that you would only consider FF when it was cheap enough just when it felt right to you. In my case I could have got the 1Ds Mk II but that would have been crazy and the price certainly wouldn't have felt right to me.
I would hope that Pentax still allow users to remove things like the grip rather than making an all-in-one "beast" like the D3. For me the size increase from *ist D to 5D was hard enough to swallow. If I had had to have a built in grip too I probably would still be trying to decide.
You may be right. I presume that the 5D Mk II will be somewhat better specced and I am still hoping for a 3D above the 5D.
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Darren M
Senior Member
I am not saying that there isn't a market, I am just saying that it will be the second (or third) market that gets catered to.
The first release will be the big model, with big features. It won't be until at least the second (or later) generation that they scale both the size and the feature pack down. This was true with Canon, think about the 1DSx to the 5D, and it will be true with Nikon as well, as their first announcement is the big one. Why would Pentax, or Sony, or anyone else be different?
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The first release will be the big model, with big features. It won't be until at least the second (or later) generation that they scale both the size and the feature pack down. This was true with Canon, think about the 1DSx to the 5D, and it will be true with Nikon as well, as their first announcement is the big one. Why would Pentax, or Sony, or anyone else be different?
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I believe that Sony and particularly Pentax will be different because they cannot hope to sell to the same market. Pentax must target the well to do hobbyist and not the pros already using Nikon and Canon.
Anastigmat
Forum Pro
I disagree. The Canon 5D is only about twice as much as the 40D and less than a thousand dollars more than the new Nikon D300. The 5D is not ultra expensive. The 5D is in fact less expensive than the Canon D30. Like the D30, full frame will continue to fall in price. Full frame has not fallen in price as fast as APS-C due to lack of competition. But competition is heating up with the introduction of the Nikon D3 and the anticipated introduction of the flagship Sony Alpha full frame.
I disagree. The D3 is about the same price as the D2XS, but it packs a lot more features and a much more expensive sensor. According to Canon's math, a full frame costs about 10 times as much as an APS-C sensor since 10 times as many APS-C sensors can be fitted onto an 8 inch silicon wafer as full frame sensors. That means the D3 is a much better value than the APS-C D2XS that it replaced.
Yes, the APS-C format is still strong. It is alive and kicking, but for how long?
Quite the contrary. APS-C format is a format for the past, not the future. The future belongs to full frame. More and more full frame models are being produced and being bought than before. The market share for full frame models is small compared to APS-C but it will increase.
I agree. There is probably no market for a Pentax full frame costing between 5-7 thousand dollars. In the future, however, full frame will come down in price. Right now, the Canon 5D is less than a thousand bucks more than the Nikon D300, and only about twice as much as the 40D. Prices will continue to come down. And demand would then go up. Sooner or later, the APS-C market will disappear.
There is no need to win the lottery to join the full frame DSLR club. Many APS-C users are paying close to a thousand dollars each for expensive APS-C lenses. Their full frame equivalents (in terms of angles of view) are much cheaper. For example, someone who can afford a Nikon D300 ($1800) plus a 12-24mm DX Nikkor ($900) can surely afford a Canon 5D ($2,500) and a 20-35mm Canon lens ($370).
Take your pick, you can spend your money on a full frame body or spend the money you "save" on expensive APS-C only glass.
andy amos
Leading Member
WOW, just read the news and all the 60 odd comments.
I think this is possibly the biggest thing to hit digital photography in the last couple of years.
Now we have two players on the FF field, that means competition, prices will surely start to drop and hopefully make Pentax and the others seriously see where they need to go.
OK these cameras are currently over the top price wise for most of us, and there are advantages to APS size sensors, but I can imagine within the next two years somebody breaking the $2000 mark for these "big boy" cameras.
My Pentax DS was priced at 999 euros just over two years ago and I've just bought a K100D for less than half that (OK not quite in the same league but prices are coming down faster than I thought they ever would).
Niche products is one thing but keeping up with the rest is vital too.
I'm very excited, I think its very positive for us consumers and time for Pentax and Olympus especially to move on from endlessly improving the same product (relatively speaking - the K10D did break out of the mould.....in its day).
Come on Pentax, give us a FF K1000, no thrills, just ISO galore at a bargain price to knock the others sideways!!
I think this is possibly the biggest thing to hit digital photography in the last couple of years.
Now we have two players on the FF field, that means competition, prices will surely start to drop and hopefully make Pentax and the others seriously see where they need to go.
OK these cameras are currently over the top price wise for most of us, and there are advantages to APS size sensors, but I can imagine within the next two years somebody breaking the $2000 mark for these "big boy" cameras.
My Pentax DS was priced at 999 euros just over two years ago and I've just bought a K100D for less than half that (OK not quite in the same league but prices are coming down faster than I thought they ever would).
Niche products is one thing but keeping up with the rest is vital too.
I'm very excited, I think its very positive for us consumers and time for Pentax and Olympus especially to move on from endlessly improving the same product (relatively speaking - the K10D did break out of the mould.....in its day).
Come on Pentax, give us a FF K1000, no thrills, just ISO galore at a bargain price to knock the others sideways!!
KL Matt
Veteran Member
Hi Brett,
The tactile
but that isn't
Funnily enough,
And that's the problem for Pentax right now, and why they need and will release an upmarket flagship. They currently have many price insensitive customers with no premium product to buy. That's generally where the higher profit margins are, so eventually they'll need to go there. The K10D was a stepping stone, the mid-range model. Once they get a full lineup, they'll be able to maximize the profit from each consumer more efficiently. Right now, somebody with a 2000-dollar budget for a K-mount body to stick onto his beloved FA 200 macro represents Pentax getting half the profit they should have. Unless of course he buys the K10D and the K1D a year later... ;-)
-Matt
Exactly. Lots of DSLRs can beat my istDs in lots of ways, but for what it offers there is nothing as convenient and tiny as my istDS with DA40 mounted. And where can you get a smaller fast normal lens on DSLR package than the FA35 f/2 with hood?
The tactile
Wow, if I were you I'd have one of each!!!
but that isn't
That would be a bummer, but you're probably both right. Wouldn't it be great to see them come out with something with K10D features, more pro-level electronics performance (buffer, resolution, noise), but K100D/istDS-sized?
Funnily enough,
To me it's just another example of good marketing strategy and product mix. Lets say you have someone looking for a full-frame DSLR body, and you sell a 5000-dollar body and it makes you 1000 dollars profit on each body sold. But this customer only has 3000 dollars to spend. Until the 5D came along, Canon would have received exactly zero dollars from that person. Enter the 5D, and even if you're only making much less profit than with the expensive model, it's still better than leaving that money on the table. If the 5D were really that cheap to manufacture, you'd see a cheaper version with slightly less features for significantly less money appear (could still happen). Seen the other way around, these manufacturers want to make sure they grab each and every consumer for the maximum amount possible. That means always having a high-priced, high-profit model available for the price insensitive and one or several more affordable models for the price sensitive.
And that's the problem for Pentax right now, and why they need and will release an upmarket flagship. They currently have many price insensitive customers with no premium product to buy. That's generally where the higher profit margins are, so eventually they'll need to go there. The K10D was a stepping stone, the mid-range model. Once they get a full lineup, they'll be able to maximize the profit from each consumer more efficiently. Right now, somebody with a 2000-dollar budget for a K-mount body to stick onto his beloved FA 200 macro represents Pentax getting half the profit they should have. Unless of course he buys the K10D and the K1D a year later... ;-)
-Matt
Do You still believe, that 645D will ever reach market? I doubt that already.
Even if so - it is a different system from Pentax DSLRs, for a Pentax user it is not an upgrade - it is a change of the system. For Can/Nik users FF can be an upgrade.
There are some medium format dslrs in the market. But they are used by few specialists. They just exist. The same is waiting 645D - I'd suggest Pentax to bury this idea and point forces to make a pro grade 35mm format DSLR - FF or APS-C.
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Even if so - it is a different system from Pentax DSLRs, for a Pentax user it is not an upgrade - it is a change of the system. For Can/Nik users FF can be an upgrade.
There are some medium format dslrs in the market. But they are used by few specialists. They just exist. The same is waiting 645D - I'd suggest Pentax to bury this idea and point forces to make a pro grade 35mm format DSLR - FF or APS-C.
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I just bought an used Canon EOS 1Ds (the first model, 11+ Mpix) for less than the price of a new EOS 5D. The old 1Ds remains a great camera, with professional features and superb image quality, even if it has some flaws compared to the new stars of the moment. Right now, the 1Ds is one of the most affordable ways I have found to use real wide angles and wide T/S lenses on a full frame sensor for high quality architecture, landscape or creative shooting.
With the launching of new models with better IQ, the price of the old models like the 1Ds will continue to decrease. That's why I thank Canon or Nikon every time they launch a new $5-8000 full frame DSLR that I will never be able tor buy new. That's because I know that it will make the older models more affordable.
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Roland Mabo
Forum Pro
I don't see the room in the market for cheaper 24x36 cameras, because of the Nikon D300 and Canon 40D. Cheaper 24x36 cameras would compete directly with the new D300 and 40D's, and if Canon and Nikon were about to release cheaper 24x36 cameras, why on Earth do they release D300 and 40D? The D300 and 40D shows that neither Canon nor Nikon plans for cheaper 24x36 in the near future, at least not for the coming 3 years.
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Roland Mabo
Forum Pro
You call the 5D for a "consumer cam", but it is more expensive than the professional level D300 from Nikon. So, the 5D may be for consumers - but not for the average consumer since it sells for higher price than the professional D300.
The release of the D300 from Nikon and 40D from Canon shows that APS-C is very strong and they will still be a gap between APS-C and 24x36 in the future. There is room for both formats on the market.
You forget one important thing - Pentax are working on two formats. APS-C and medium format digital. You expect Pentax to release a 24x36 camera, but that will mean that Pentax will support three formats. How could tiny Pentax support three formats with three sets of lenses when neither Canon nor Nikon supports more than two formats?
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The release of the D300 from Nikon and 40D from Canon shows that APS-C is very strong and they will still be a gap between APS-C and 24x36 in the future. There is room for both formats on the market.
You forget one important thing - Pentax are working on two formats. APS-C and medium format digital. You expect Pentax to release a 24x36 camera, but that will mean that Pentax will support three formats. How could tiny Pentax support three formats with three sets of lenses when neither Canon nor Nikon supports more than two formats?
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Priyantha Bleeker
Forum Enthusiast
The 5D is already the 'cheaper full-frame camera' where you are asking for
The 40D and the 300D are a other class, that are APS-C camera's, used mainly by semi-pro en enthusiastic users.
The 5D is much used as a landscape camera(wide-angle !) for a very good price.
I think you just have a pair of 'Pentax glasses on your nose' and you see everything trough the 'Pentax glasses' in a Pentax ideal world.
When it was Pentax who released a Full-Frame body, than you where very enthusiastic.
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Greetings, Priyantha Bleeker
This is an interesting point.
Model, Announced, MSRP
D2x, Sept 2004, $5,250
D2xs, June 2006, $4,700
D3, Aug 2007, $5,000
And the D3 walks all over the other two cameras feature wise.
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Roland Mabo
Forum Pro
Darren, that is pure speculation.
The release of the D300 and 40D from Nikon and Canon is the evidence that shows that neither Nikon nor Canon are planning cheaper 24x36 bodies than the 5D from Canon. Why would they introduce the D300 and 40D, which are competitiors to the cheap 24x36 that you state will come?
There is room in the market for APS-C, 24x36 and medium format digital.
So things has not changed, not yet. Perhaps they will in 10 years time, who knows, buf for the near future it is APS-C for consumer to semi-pro and entry level professional, and 24x36 and medium format for professional. It was like this one year ago, it is still like this this year. So, things has not changed at all. 24x36 has not come down in price, the market has not choosen 24x36 as the dominating format, both Nikon and Canon continues developing and releasing pro-format and semi-pro APS-C models.
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R
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The release of the D300 and 40D from Nikon and Canon is the evidence that shows that neither Nikon nor Canon are planning cheaper 24x36 bodies than the 5D from Canon. Why would they introduce the D300 and 40D, which are competitiors to the cheap 24x36 that you state will come?
There is room in the market for APS-C, 24x36 and medium format digital.
So things has not changed, not yet. Perhaps they will in 10 years time, who knows, buf for the near future it is APS-C for consumer to semi-pro and entry level professional, and 24x36 and medium format for professional. It was like this one year ago, it is still like this this year. So, things has not changed at all. 24x36 has not come down in price, the market has not choosen 24x36 as the dominating format, both Nikon and Canon continues developing and releasing pro-format and semi-pro APS-C models.
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Take care
R
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