Nikon Full Frame

I have my doubts about the performance for the D3 set to DX format. I
don't see how it could perform better than Nikon's entry level APS-C
bodies. Buying an ultra-expensive D3 and discover that the DX lenses
isn't giving as good images as they did on Nikon's cheapest DSLR
-that doesn't sound like a "good idea" to me.
As we have often had dicsussions about the disavantage of cramming many pixels on a CCD, I am leaning towards the thought that 5Mp of good pixels will be better than for instance what they now have on the D200.

Remeber, how many Mp did te first Nikon biggies have???? And they got printed as well
--
janneman
http://www.pbase.com/jl2


The difference between genius and LBA is that genius has its
limits.
  • Janneman ( adaptation of the Kings quote from Albert Einstein)
 
And even if lotteries are won, there are far better uses the money can go to. E.g. education, lifelong savings, investment :)
The D3 has just been announced. Estimated selling price is $5,000.
The price strongly shows that nothing has really happened. 24x36 is
still an ultra-expensive format for the fortunate ones. Unless most
photographers suddenly wins the lottery, 24x36 will stay as a
minority digital format for the fortunate ones, as a low cost
alternative to digital medium format. Digital 24x36 takes over where
analogue medium format left. It is an APS-C world, which shows by
Nikon's and Canon's strong comitment to APS-C with the release of
D300 and 40D, and the release of new EF-S lenses (APS-C) by Canon.
APS-C of today has taken over from the analogue 24x36 of the past.
It is the dominating format and will continue to be so for the time
being.
--
Take care
R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo
--
-Kev-
Penang, Malaysia. GMT+8.
 
But a 5mp APS-C can't print as large as a 10Mp APS-C can. If you are a pro, and buys the ultra-expensive D3, I think you are more likely to make large prints than the average entry-level buyer. For this purpose, it must be better to keep the APS-C body those lenses were originally bought for, and use this instead of the DX mode in the D3.
--
Take care
R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo
 
When, if ever, will Pentax join the club?
That is the $64M question. Pentax should at least release one pro version of DSLR else it will be a big question mark on the intention of Hoya's management on their commitment on the DSLR product segment.

And if they fail to deliver then the momentum on K10D's popularity and the good result of the SDM are gone. Worst case scenario people will switch to C and N.

I hope the Pentax response will come out soon.

--
reygon
http://s129.photobucket.com/albums/p238/reygonz/
----------------------------------------------------------------

Take nothing but photos... Kill nothing but time... Leave nothing but footprints...
 
Roland,

You're looking at things as they stand now and I’m looking to the future.

I said back in 2005 that within three years there would be FF cameras available for either $2,500 or $2,700 (sorry search is down) and this was a few months before the 5D was announced. Now you can buy the 5D for about $2,500 and you could buy it for around $2,100 earlier in the year when the rebates were offered.

With the introduction of the D3 I don't exactly expect the price of the current 5D to go up and the Canon “Fall Rebates” program should begin soon.

The D3 was a response to the exodus of professional photographers to Canon, specifically for FF. If you watched any major press conference after the 5D was released you would see that the 5D and the 1D Mk II absolutely dominated the press. If you read the Nikon and Fuji forums you would have noticed a continuous stream of working photographers jumping ship for the 5D.

Nikon got it wrong with their APS-C only policy and now they have done an about face. Yes, their first offering is very expensive but I expect that the price will fall as time goes on and as they offer FF in lower specced bodies as Canon did.

I have always said that Canon will want to force FF down the product line and I expect them to continue to do just that next year bringing cheaper FF cameras to market.
No, it is not a "full frame world" just beacuse Canon and Nikon, and
soon Sony, have ultra-expensive 24x36 cameras. The world wasn't
medium format when we had medium format cameras in this price
bracket. 24x36 digital has taken over the analogue medium format
market. The 24x36 analogue market has been taken over by APS-C
digital.
And those formats will happily co-exist.
I don't understand how you even can use the term "full frame world"
when the majority of photographers hasn't won the lottery yet so they
can't afford those ultra-expensive cameras. 24x36 isn't for the
common people and never will be, which is proven by the Nikon D3. D3
hasn't made 24x36 more affordable, it is not a consumer or semi-pro
'cam. Nothing has happened yet, 24x36 is still this year at where it
was last year - it is still an ultra-expensive pro format for the
fortunate rich ones.
The D300 by Nikon and 40D by Canon strongly shows that "it is an
APS-C world", and will continue being that. APS-C is here to stay and
the latest releases from Canon and Nikon shows that this is true,
APS-C is getting stronger than ever before.
--
Take care
R
http://www.flickr.com/photos/raphaelmabo
--
GMT+1 (BST)
 
The price strongly shows that nothing has really happened. 24x36 is
still an ultra-expensive format for the fortunate ones. Unless most
photographers suddenly wins the lottery, 24x36 will stay as a
minority digital format for the fortunate ones, as a low cost
alternative to digital medium format. Digital 24x36 takes over where
analogue medium format left. It is an APS-C world, which shows by
Nikon's and Canon's strong comitment to APS-C with the release of
D300 and 40D, and the release of new EF-S lenses (APS-C) by Canon.
APS-C of today has taken over from the analogue 24x36 of the past.
It is the dominating format and will continue to be so for the time
being.
Well the Canon 5D is a consummer full-frame dSLR, not a 'Pro' cam like the 1 series and the D2/D3 series from Nikon.

The 5D is essentially the same camera as the 30D but with a bigger sensor and a bigger pentaprism(without built-in flash).
BQ is not on par with the 'Pro' bodies.

And the price is also very good, it is less than 2200 EURO's here in The Netherlands, and the price is dropping.

Pentax has to be on par with the other big camera makers to stay competitive.

--
Greetings, Priyantha Bleeker
 
I have my doubts about the performance for the D3 set to DX format. I
don't see how it could perform better than Nikon's entry level APS-C
bodies. Buying an ultra-expensive D3 and discover that the DX lenses
isn't giving as good images as they did on Nikon's cheapest DSLR
-that doesn't sound like a "good idea" to me.
Why doesn't it sound like a good idea to you Roland? Better pixels, one MP less. I will bet the D3 eats the D40's, D50's, D70's, breakfasat lunch and dinner. This should be a very good camera for Nikon and a very good camera for the industry in general. Quite honestly, I think the only reason you have doubts is because it wasn't Pentax that came out with it first.

I have to say that I am very, very impressed that Nikon went full frame without going nuts in the megapixel race. It might be harder to market, but I will bet it will produce some great images. Pentax will likely have to go FF in the future, but I would think that is a couple years in the future. APS-C will continue to exist, but if Pentax wants to play in the higher end of the game, they will have no choice.

--



http://www.trekearth.com/members/Darren/photos/
http://www.darrenmelrose.com
http://dailysomeone.blogspot.com

Photos or pixels. Make sure you are looking at the right thing.
Have camera, will travel
 
[...]
But I agree, the new Nikons look fine.... Problem with Nikon is that
you have to buy VR glass if you want it and one silly thing, The
Nikon rep in te Netherlands could not tell anybody which lenses are
sealed enough to use on sealed camera.....
Nikon are always Coy about this. With Canon, Pentax and Olympus you can read it in the specs on their website but with Nikon the only way to find out for sure is to call support and try to coax it from one of their Techs.

The truth is that Nikon have very few sealed lenses despite their sealed bodies (even if the lens has an O-ring). I believe that the three new long lenses are sealed but surprisingly it seems that the 14-24 and the 24-70 are not.

One other disappointment is that the 24-70 doesn’t have VR but then neither does the Nikon 17-55 f/2.8 while the Canon does. Actually another disappointment is that it IS only 24-70. That focal length is great on a cropper but on FF I would want something a little longer.

[...]

--
GMT+1 (BST)
 
Things have changed Roland, no matter what you say or think. First of all, yes the sensor is pricey, but it is also housed in a fantastic body. The D3 is as good a body as a Canon 1DS, so that $5000 you are paying is by no means for the sensor alone. House that same sensor in even a D300 body and you can knock a very good chunk of change off the selling price. Further, add the economies of scale in the production of a more mass market body like the D300, or even a D80, with that sensor, and you are probably down to lower than $3000usd selling price. That, IMO, is a big change.

None of these make me want to switch, but they do make me hopeful for what comes from Pentax in the future. Advances are good for all photographers, not just Nikon shooters.

--



http://www.trekearth.com/members/Darren/photos/
http://www.darrenmelrose.com
http://dailysomeone.blogspot.com

Photos or pixels. Make sure you are looking at the right thing.
Have camera, will travel
 
Advances are good for all photographers, not just Nikon shooters.
But they are a long way off producing what I would eventually like. FF in a simple body no bigger than the K10D (a touch smaller if possible). I have played with a 5D and it just a bit too big to be convenient for me. And it doesn't need to be as complex or fast like the D3. I am into slow shooting like some people are into slow food. I am hoping that somebody will finally remember what Olympus did with the OM1 and Pentax with the MX/ME and make small but effective interchangeable lens cameras again.... at the moment only APS-C does that (and at a price many can afford)

--
Brett
http://www.pbase.com/shreder



The Journey is the Thing
 
I agree with you on that Brett, but I am also pretty certain that the first full frame Pentax will be a very large body, with a lot of features as well. It won't necessarily be that a huge body is needed to house everything, but that is what the market will demand. People equate bigger with better and in order to sell a better camera, Pentax will be forced to sell a bigger brick. It will take at least another generation for Pentax (or anyone) to release a smaller FF body, because the first adapters will be calling for a camera that is both hugely featured and hugely sized. Hope I am making sense...

--



http://www.trekearth.com/members/Darren/photos/
http://www.darrenmelrose.com
http://dailysomeone.blogspot.com

Photos or pixels. Make sure you are looking at the right thing.
Have camera, will travel
 
And if they fail to deliver then the momentum on K10D's popularity
and the good result of the SDM are gone. Worst case scenario people
will switch to C and N.
Why should they. Nikon and Canon 35mm format digital offerings are brutally expensive (add also lenses prices) and are for pros only. Potential buyers of those cameras don't use Pentax anyway.

And for casual advanced amateur with K10D those offering are simply way out of budget. Even D300 (which makes me really jealous) is too expensive, D300 + Nikkor AF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 costs more than twice compared to K10D + DA★ 16-50mm f/2.8

--
Edvinas
 
Pentax hasn't competed with the big boys for decades (at least not for the 35mm market). I don't want Pentax to challenge Nikon and Canon. Sony can do that and fail. I want a niche player. I use Pentax because I like to be different and because they cater for my needs not the needs of pro photographers.

I don't think these announcements are going to hit K series owners much; Pentax always caters to the amateur market, and APS-C is still clearly sensible. They've made a nice wide angle zoom and fish-eye zoom, so the crop factor is no longer too much of a loss at the wide end. At the tele end, all those amateurs who can't afford ridiculous glass can stick Bigmas or similar on their camera and enjoy having a try at wildlife and sports stuff. IMO Pentax has the best system for an amateur photographer who enjoys doing a mix of photography and travelling with a nice compact system. The Nikon announcements don't change that.

Nor do I think it matters if different companies have different formats; with film it was important because you had to buy different types of film, but with digital, full frame, aps-c and four-thirds could all still co-exist (although I think 4/3 is going to struggle going after the pro market).

What I do think is that the 645D is stuffed. Digital has changed things. You can now get super high quality in full frame digital. A lot of landscape photographers have switched from Pentax to Canon. This is sad because I liked the fact Pentax always had its MF 'pro' side. It added kudos to the brand.

That said, you never know. The K10D has been extremely successful and won many awards. Pentax is always full of surprises.
 
Hi Brett,

I don't think that the 5D is that much bigger than the K10D, especially when you put them side-by-side. It's about 1cm wider and quite a bit taller but I think that most of the height comes from the larger mirror box and prism.

Looking at the 40D specs, the 40D is a little wider then the 30D and I think that one of the reasons for this change was the new WFT-E3/E3A wireless transmitter which I believe will be shared across bodies like the 40D and 5D Mk II etc, etc. If this is the case then I expect the 5D to get a little smaller (but still wider and taller than the 40D).

Anyway one of the main reasons I moved to Pentax was size, not just of the camera (*ist D) but also the Full Frame lenses - especially the lenses. All I can says is that I put all that aside when I decided to get with the 5D because of what the 5D offered me.

You seem to have accepted the size increase from the *ist D to the K10D so I’m sure you’ll accept just a few more mm for FF especially if it’s offered for what you consider to be the right price.
Advances are good for all photographers, not just Nikon shooters.
But they are a long way off producing what I would eventually like.
FF in a simple body no bigger than the K10D (a touch smaller if
possible). I have played with a 5D and it just a bit too big to be
convenient for me. And it doesn't need to be as complex or fast like
the D3. I am into slow shooting like some people are into slow food.
I am hoping that somebody will finally remember what Olympus did with
the OM1 and Pentax with the MX/ME and make small but effective
interchangeable lens cameras again.... at the moment only APS-C does
that (and at a price many can afford)

--
Brett
http://www.pbase.com/shreder



The Journey is the Thing
--
GMT+1 (BST)
 
I agree with you on that Brett, but I am also pretty certain that the
first full frame Pentax will be a very large body, with a lot of
features as well. It won't necessarily be that a huge body is needed
to house everything, but that is what the market will demand. People
equate bigger with better and in order to sell a better camera,
Pentax will be forced to sell a bigger brick. It will take at least
another generation for Pentax (or anyone) to release a smaller FF
body, because the first adapters will be calling for a camera that is
both hugely featured and hugely sized. Hope I am making sense...
You make absolute sense and you are 100% correct. I don't think it will be the one for me however (time will tell). Although I am a big guy, I prefer smaller cameras and the K10D was asking me to almost go beyond my limits. It comes from my backpacking days, I always like the idea to minimalise... often it just doesn't happen.

--
Brett
http://www.pbase.com/shreder



The Journey is the Thing
 
Remember the days when some quack on these forums claimed that $1000 'full frame' cameras were doable two years ago and the only reason that they cost so much was because Canon was sitting on huge margins?
The D3 has just been announced. Estimated selling price is $5,000.
FX format (36mm x 23.9mm) 12mp just like the Canon 5D. Now we have
two DSLR makers moving to full frame, with Sony probably joining the
club next year. When, if ever, will Pentax join the club?
 
The D3 has just been announced. Estimated selling price is $5,000.
FX format (36mm x 23.9mm) 12mp just like the Canon 5D. Now we have
two DSLR makers moving to full frame, with Sony probably joining the
club next year. When, if ever, will Pentax join the club?
Does the D3 use a Sony sensor? If so, it may be expected in a Sony DSLR and perhaps Pentax?
 
Pentax will go MF (645D). The image quality from the MF will be so
much better than FF.
Yes, but Pentax have delayed the 645D in order to concentrate on a high-end K-mount DSLR. Is this a full frame one? After all, a 12mp APS DSLR, which is sure to come from Pentax, is not really competing with a 645D.
 
Hi Brett,

I don't think that the 5D is that much bigger than the K10D,
especially when you put them side-by-side. It's about 1cm wider and
quite a bit taller but I think that most of the height comes from the
larger mirror box and prism.
Hi Eze, I tried it while I still had the *istD and of course the 5D with 24-105 L seemed huge by comparison. I don't doubt that the K10D is approaching it in size by the way it feels in the hand. I guess that's the price you pay (although I think Pentax could have made the K10D a little smaller as one of their exec made a comment that part of it's size was because of market expectations - higher spec cameras need to be larger, right? Canon certainly seem to have followed that line for their Pro models. After all, users of 1Dxxx models are not that worried about "backpackability" are they? :-))

:snip:
You seem to have accepted the size increase from the *ist D to the
K10D so I’m sure you’ll accept just a few more mm for FF especially
if it’s offered for what you consider to be the right price.
We shall see. My needs may be different to yours. I don't do studio and one packability is important to me because photography, while being my favorite hobby, is often an adjunct to my other pastimes. Portability is important over absolute image quality. The tactile feel of my Limited lenses is more important than absolute IQ. I have the finances to afford whatever camera I choose but that isn't important to me. I am sure that I would appreciate the IQ of the next generation FF sensors but I think Darren (in the post above) is right in that the market demands that any FF DSLR released by Pentax (if ever) be fully featured and size comes with that. Funnily enough, perhaps the 5D is the "simplest" FF DSLR we will see. In many ways it is lower specced than the K10D but that sensor allows them to charge 3-4x the price.....

Regards

--
Brett
http://www.pbase.com/shreder



The Journey is the Thing
 

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