booggerg
Veteran Member
You are utterly ridiculous in your technical knowledge.
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new Canon vs Nikon D80
- Thread starter Flashlight
- Start date
cameraman12
Veteran Member
I think when the first controlled test comes out, you will see a difference. It may not be mindblowing but there will be quite a difference. I'll be the first person to say that this whole megapixels thing is out of control (and not always the most important thing,) but in the case of the 1ds mark III, they not only made a camera that gives a bit more resolution, but they also made a ton of improvements. I think people are excited by the camera becuase it seems like Canon is listening. I for one, will be getting one although I will probably wait until next year.
tony field
Veteran Member
The moral of the story is don't read what offends you.
I personally don't find your post offensive - just way off of the mark for useful information.
FYI, I shoot with Linhoff, Mamyia RB and Leica film, Canon digital and maybe 175,000 images on Nikon digital. You, however, seem to think the name is very important.
The test, although interesting, certainly is poorly done unless you are trying to make a religious point.
Hardly!
What is wrong? Do the tests properly.
The images are dramatically different in terms of field of view, crop, lighting, working distance and post processing. This makes the test worthless - however, does illustrate that excellent results can be achieved from your Nikon. You should also realize that lens choice, shooting aperture and DOF relationships between full frame and 1.5 crop sensors is significantly different.
I can easily illustrate that my images from my D2h are better and sharper than my images from my D2x or my 5D. It is easy to make mistakes - you do have to know what and why you are comparing.
The Canon image, a jpg out-of-camera, is very fine. As in the past, Canon posted images for their cameras are fully unprocessed. Many people often comment how bad they are. They are delivered in the most neutral rendering the camera body offers with the anticipation that post processing will be done - as expected with a "studio" camera. Post processing the Canon image yields excellent result - and has problems that you have not bothered to explore.
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tony
http://www.tphoto.ca
...and to troll around a bit.
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Whoever said 'a picture is worth a thousand words' was a cheapskate.
http://www.pbase.com/dot_borg
Flashlight
Veteran Member
Hi Kabe,
it's a bit different. I'm trying to compare the IQ of my 10 MP D80 to the new Canon 20 MP camera. I took the portrait officially posted by Canon and looked-up a similar file on my HD. I expected a huge difference but found a marginal one. I was under the impression the IQ would go a long way towards the new Hasselblad 39 MP camera, but surprisingly not so.
Here's the eye of the 20 MP shot sharpened like I sharpened my own photo, below that the eye of the D80 photo uprezzed to 5616 pixels on the long side, the size of the 20 MP camera:
Philip
it's a bit different. I'm trying to compare the IQ of my 10 MP D80 to the new Canon 20 MP camera. I took the portrait officially posted by Canon and looked-up a similar file on my HD. I expected a huge difference but found a marginal one. I was under the impression the IQ would go a long way towards the new Hasselblad 39 MP camera, but surprisingly not so.
Here's the eye of the 20 MP shot sharpened like I sharpened my own photo, below that the eye of the D80 photo uprezzed to 5616 pixels on the long side, the size of the 20 MP camera:
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Philip
Steven Noyes
Veteran Member
One taken at the sweet spot of a lens to one shot wide open. You are comparing different PP. You are comparing a small part of the shot and not the whole shot. What did your full framed image look like? Was it framed the same way? Were you the same distance? Did you have any changes in perspective? Did you PP the shots the same way?
I am looking at your highly over-sharpened image (complete with very visible halos on the hair) to a completely non-sharpened image. An image of an eye from a much larger photograph.
In short, there are SO many uncontrolled aspects of this it is not even funny and nothing can be drawn from it in any way.
There is no reason to expect a 20MP image compared to a 10MP image would be much different than the jump from 5MP to 10MP. Or from 6MP to 12MP. Or from 4MP to 8MP. Most 10MP DSLRs are very similar at base ISOs. There is little that separates a D2X from a 5D at base ISO.
Steven
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Summer 2007:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/images_summer_2007
2006 White Sands and Bisti Workshop
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/white_sands_and_bisti
I am looking at your highly over-sharpened image (complete with very visible halos on the hair) to a completely non-sharpened image. An image of an eye from a much larger photograph.
In short, there are SO many uncontrolled aspects of this it is not even funny and nothing can be drawn from it in any way.
There is no reason to expect a 20MP image compared to a 10MP image would be much different than the jump from 5MP to 10MP. Or from 6MP to 12MP. Or from 4MP to 8MP. Most 10MP DSLRs are very similar at base ISOs. There is little that separates a D2X from a 5D at base ISO.
Steven
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Summer 2007:
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/images_summer_2007
2006 White Sands and Bisti Workshop
http://www.pbase.com/snoyes/white_sands_and_bisti
Kabe Luna
Veteran Member
...then you certainly have no need for more MP than you currently have.
Still, for a more fair evaluation, try and duplicate on your D80 the DOF characteristics of the Canon shot. Then compare. Currently, your shot has significantly greater DOF than the Canon shot, leading to the impression of greater overall sharpness, even with the Canon shot sharpened.
Even without that, let's say you need to print your image at 24" x 36" for your client. Equalize the sharpening on the Canon shot and interpolate both up to this size. Now which one looks better? Next make prints. Which looks better? My bet is on the Canon as, invariably, less interpolation means more accurate detail and fewer interpolation artifacts. And large size printing will show the difference between 10 and 21MP.
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Kabe Luna
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kabeluna/
Still, for a more fair evaluation, try and duplicate on your D80 the DOF characteristics of the Canon shot. Then compare. Currently, your shot has significantly greater DOF than the Canon shot, leading to the impression of greater overall sharpness, even with the Canon shot sharpened.
Even without that, let's say you need to print your image at 24" x 36" for your client. Equalize the sharpening on the Canon shot and interpolate both up to this size. Now which one looks better? Next make prints. Which looks better? My bet is on the Canon as, invariably, less interpolation means more accurate detail and fewer interpolation artifacts. And large size printing will show the difference between 10 and 21MP.
--Here's the eye of the 20 MP shot sharpened like I sharpened my own
photo, below that the eye of the D80 photo uprezzed to 5616 pixels on
the long side, the size of the 20 MP camera:
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Philip
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Kabe Luna
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kabeluna/
Flashlight
Veteran Member
???
The test I did was with my new softbox. With all respect, you have no idea what I was testing and how I did it, so you can hardly know whether it was poorly done. For this post I compared two similar images. One of those came from the test.
Religious? Huh? I compared a shot from a 10 MP camera to a shot from a 20 MP camera. If you carefully read my OP, you see I say: " I wonder what is wrong, for I doubt that the D80 seriously outperforms 10 MP Canon cameras." I'm just stumped about the fact that the difference between a 10 MP and a 20 MP shot is so small and try to find out why that is. People always bring in this Nikon-Canon thing :-(
Hmm, pretty much the same, all the more if you take into account we're looking at double resolution...
As I said before, I didn't do a test, I just compared two similar images. From your comment however, I understand that you find the IQ of the Canon image satisfactorily?
it's 55 vs 85 mm, but that is not too dramatic as we're also using different formats
not really, considering the double amount of MP the differences are not that large
don't think that's very different
agreed
You mean the comparison :-? I don't agree, provided one would see a huge difference in quality between a 10 MP and a 20 MP shot.
If the difference is only small, completely against my expectations, well then you obviously have to do a very precise comparison. In that case however, there's little need for me to buy the the expensive 20 MP camera.
In fact I distill from your answers that you think the difference between 10 and 20 MP shots is indeed small. Seems I found my answer, thanks...
Sure, it's a nice camera, I like it very much. I'm convinced you can achieve similar results with similar Canon cameras.
Serious...:-? LOL
So if you uprez an eye from a D2h shot to D2x size as I did above the D2h eye would be sharper than the D2x one... I doubt that very much...
Sure, I'm trying to compare a 10 MP photo uprezzed to 20 MP with a native 20 MP shot. I do that because I want to know if it makes sense to buy a 20 MP camera.
If that is true, they should change their habits... Posting shots like this will not make D80 owners buy their new camera!
It would make more sense to post RAW shots then. I figured a jpeg is an end product. IMO compressing a shot before PP is bad practice.
Thanks very much Tony. Your reply really did help me. It's a pity though that you felt the need to put in that patronizing undertone.
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Philip
booggerg
Veteran Member
The Working distance and crop does matter! It matters a lot now go back to your room.
shaktipalooza
Veteran Member
of comparing jpeg out of camera with a processed raw image.
you did a great job of it here:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=22474911
Flashlight wrote:
"The sharpening was off in camera. I opened the NEF (with the plugin) and the jpeg in Photoshop. Then I dragged one on top of the other, cropped the eye out, increased the canvas, dragged the jpeg photo to the right and flattened the image. Only then did I sharpen them, so they were sharpened together as one photo.
Whether the left photo seems oversharpened or not is not so interesting. It's the amount of visible detail that's important."
Good job flashlight! I guess maybe you'd forgotten?
you did a great job of it here:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=22474911
Flashlight wrote:
"The sharpening was off in camera. I opened the NEF (with the plugin) and the jpeg in Photoshop. Then I dragged one on top of the other, cropped the eye out, increased the canvas, dragged the jpeg photo to the right and flattened the image. Only then did I sharpen them, so they were sharpened together as one photo.
Whether the left photo seems oversharpened or not is not so interesting. It's the amount of visible detail that's important."
Good job flashlight! I guess maybe you'd forgotten?
shaktipalooza
Veteran Member
Mersereau
Well-known member
Brilliant.......just brilliant....
so, flashlight, how does your out of camera JPEG compare to the Canon test ?
I think we all have concluded by this point that he is here for no other reason than to stir the proverbial pot... and he has done that quite well (applause). It's like pointing out a blue sky to someone only to have them insist it's red. Eventually you realize there is no other reason for the inane behaviour other than to simply drive you nuts....
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http://www.bluebeatdesign.com
'Camera's are just tools, isn't it nice when the photographers behind them aren't...'
so, flashlight, how does your out of camera JPEG compare to the Canon test ?
I think we all have concluded by this point that he is here for no other reason than to stir the proverbial pot... and he has done that quite well (applause). It's like pointing out a blue sky to someone only to have them insist it's red. Eventually you realize there is no other reason for the inane behaviour other than to simply drive you nuts....
--
http://www.bluebeatdesign.com
'Camera's are just tools, isn't it nice when the photographers behind them aren't...'
Flashlight
Veteran Member
Of course I didn't forget. What is the matter with you people? Are you that insecure about your gear?
Canon launches a new $8K 20 MP flagship camera and supplies a jpeg file (until a short time ago I didn't even know it was straight out of camera, btw). I saw no reason why that file shouldn't blow away any 10 MP file, whether Raw, sharpened of whatever. I compared it to one of my own uprezzed files and yes, naturally, I PP'd it as best as I could.
From this thread I get the message that 20 MP is not the huge improvement over 10 MP I expected. OK, I know now what I wanted to know.
BTW, the Canon shot is sharpened, for if I sharpen it like my own file I see loads of halos:
Philip
Canon launches a new $8K 20 MP flagship camera and supplies a jpeg file (until a short time ago I didn't even know it was straight out of camera, btw). I saw no reason why that file shouldn't blow away any 10 MP file, whether Raw, sharpened of whatever. I compared it to one of my own uprezzed files and yes, naturally, I PP'd it as best as I could.
From this thread I get the message that 20 MP is not the huge improvement over 10 MP I expected. OK, I know now what I wanted to know.
BTW, the Canon shot is sharpened, for if I sharpen it like my own file I see loads of halos:
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Philip
shaktipalooza
Veteran Member
shaktipalooza
Veteran Member
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1030&message=20835874
Ah heck, why even bother showing the different fstops if they're so close?
Ah heck, why even bother showing the different fstops if they're so close?
Flashlight
Veteran Member
I always shoot RAW, for obvious reasons, so I have no out of camera jpeg. I'd much rather have a Raw file from the Canon.
I wonder why Canon would post images that are less than optimal? Because they don't want people to buy their camera :-? The portrait is clearly sharpened, btw.
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Philip
Flashlight
Veteran Member
So now you're going over all my posts :-? Aren't you a little frustrated or what?
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Philip
Because they're so close?
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Philip
Flashlight
Veteran Member
Why don't you show us some of your images?
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Philip
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Philip
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