Sony 12 mp, 11fps APSc CMOS ...

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With all the investment in APS-C image circle lenses, it would make little sense to come out with a larger sensor. It only works for Canon who continue with FF.

Sounds great if they can keep the noise monster under control.

My concern is that a 10mp APS-C sensor is already putting the resolving power of lenses to the test, so what the point of 12mp? It seems this megapixel race nonsense with continue in the dslr.
 
Has nobody noticed that the new Sony chip is 12 bits, while all Canon's newest SLR offerings are 14 bit? The increase in bit depth should have a significant impact on image quality via more discrete steps per color channel. This will be most important in shadow detail, shadow noise, and in recovering shadows from raw files.
 
Has nobody noticed that the new Sony chip is 12 bits, while all
Canon's newest SLR offerings are 14 bit? The increase in bit depth
should have a significant impact on image quality via more discrete
steps per color channel. This will be most important in shadow
detail, shadow noise, and in recovering shadows from raw files.
Unless the sensor has a DR > 72dB, the 2 extra bits aren't really going to have much of an impact. If the DR is less than 72dB, then all the extra bits are doing is specifying the noise more precisely.

Cheers,
Daniel.
 
I'm betting on both Sony and Nikon using this IMX021 on their "flagship" sport models and announcing them this week.

You can already hear (read) all the Nikon users complaining about it a) not being full frame and b) not being compatible with their DX lenses.

Nikon is in for some interesting times with the growing pains it will experiment by trying to go to Full Frame. I'm sure Canon will be picking up plenty of users in the process.

It's really not very good, I would not like to see a single player dominating the DSLR market; competition is good for everyone!

--
Ignacio Féito
México
 
I believe the Fuji S5 has 14 bit as well, but the high dynamic range comes from taking two exposures of the same subject.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Josh
Has nobody noticed that the new Sony chip is 12 bits, while all
Canon's newest SLR offerings are 14 bit? The increase in bit depth
should have a significant impact on image quality via more discrete
steps per color channel. This will be most important in shadow
detail, shadow noise, and in recovering shadows from raw files.
Unless the sensor has a DR > 72dB, the 2 extra bits aren't really
going to have much of an impact. If the DR is less than 72dB, then
all the extra bits are doing is specifying the noise more precisely.

Cheers,
Daniel.
 
Daniel, If this is so can you explain why? I have seen the impact on image quality in the move from 12 to 14 bits and from 14 to 16 bits in several other aspects of digital imaging (A to D conversions) and the impact on image quality in less than optimal circumstances (specifically low signal levels) was truly significant.
 
Daniel, If this is so can you explain why? I have seen the impact on
image quality in the move from 12 to 14 bits and from 14 to 16 bits
in several other aspects of digital imaging (A to D conversions) and
the impact on image quality in less than optimal circumstances
(specifically low signal levels) was truly significant.
I'd be interested to hear about these cases where the extra bits contributed something when the signal itself did not have the dynamic range. Was the imaging chain exactly the same pre-ADC? Could the effect you were seeing be explainable by dithering (analogous to the effect in the audio domain), rather than captured extra "detail" in the extra bits? If this is the case, then you could simulate the effect with 12bit/pixel captures and good noise shaping.

Cheers,
Daniel.
 
I'm betting on both Sony and Nikon using this IMX021 on their
"flagship" sport models and announcing them this week.
Sony probably won't announce this week, possibly beginning of September. It's also likely to be the Advanced Amateur model, not the flagship.
You can already hear (read) all the Nikon users complaining about it
a) not being full frame and b) not being compatible with their DX
lenses.
The IMX021 is an APS-C sized sensor, should work perfectly well with the DX lenses AFAIK.
Nikon is in for some interesting times with the growing pains it will
experiment by trying to go to Full Frame. I'm sure Canon will be
picking up plenty of users in the process.
Why do you say this? Why should Nikon (hypothetically) bringing a 36mm x 24mm sensor camera to the table drive Nikon users to Canon? There'll still be APS-C sized sensor cameras (D80-D200 class) for people with an attachment to DX lenses I would suppose.
It's really not very good, I would not like to see a single player
dominating the DSLR market; competition is good for everyone!
Fair competition is good. I hope We see some innovative cameras based upon the IMX021 to spur Canon on, and vice versa.

Cheers,
Daniel.
 
I doubt 12/14 bits makes any difference.

I do think however that sony have been working hard..and have someting tasty up their sleeves.

Sony know Canon is king of the hill, but this is a company..that has the resources to really pack a big punch.

I just hope that they deliver on that..
--



Clint is on holiday! Soon to return! ;-)
 
I doubt 12/14 bits makes any difference.

I do think however that sony have been working hard..and have
someting tasty up their sleeves.

Sony know Canon is king of the hill, but this is a company..that has
the resources to really pack a big punch.

I just hope that they deliver on that..
If Sony is doing the 12.4 mp sensor on the advanced amateur, I can't wait to see what they have up their sleeves for the flagship. Poor Canon.

Gary Eickmeier
 
Unless the sensor has a DR > 72dB, the 2 extra bits aren't really
going to have much of an impact. If the DR is less than 72dB, then
all the extra bits are doing is specifying the noise more precisely.
For a single pixel, true. However, images are collections of pixels and many gradual tone gradients span very many pixels. With each pixel quantized to 14 bits, the average across a cluster of pixels can settle to a value consistent with 14 bits. Plus, it's a bit easier to manipulate the data during postprocessing (esp. steps that stretch the tonal range) without adding gaps.

David
 
I'm betting on both Sony and Nikon using this IMX021 on their
"flagship" sport models and announcing them this week.

You can already hear (read) all the Nikon users complaining about it
a) not being full frame and b) not being compatible with their DX
lenses.

Nikon is in for some interesting times with the growing pains it will
experiment by trying to go to Full Frame. I'm sure Canon will be
picking up plenty of users in the process.

It's really not very good, I would not like to see a single player
dominating the DSLR market; competition is good for everyone!
I wonder what Pentax will do with it if they decide to use it. It's all starting to get very interesting.
--
Ignacio Féito
México
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/djmsmc/
 
Just to one-up the Canon cameras for another generation:

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200708/07-072E/

All those folks spreading FUD about a 1.25 crop were dead wrong.
Note that we don't know the maximum frame rate of Canon's 40D sensor, only the frame rate of the entire system (which could be bottlenecked by the strength of the mirror and shutter mechanisms, data bandwidth, raw-> jpeg processing speed in the DIGIC III, etc.). If Sony builds a DSLR with this new sensor, the beefed up mechanicals and high bandwidth wouldn't be cheap.

David
 
Unless the sensor has a DR > 72dB, the 2 extra bits aren't really
going to have much of an impact. If the DR is less than 72dB, then
all the extra bits are doing is specifying the noise more precisely.
For a single pixel, true. However, images are collections of pixels
and many gradual tone gradients span very many pixels. With each
pixel quantized to 14 bits, the average across a cluster of pixels
can settle to a value consistent with 14 bits. Plus, it's a bit
easier to manipulate the data during postprocessing (esp. steps that
stretch the tonal range) without adding gaps.

David
Exactly. It should be clearer with some real type numbers and quantization noise.

Assume that the noise floor is at 11 electrons and a full well capacity is 40,000 electrons (these are in the ball park, but I don't have exact numbers). There are only 11.8 bits of possible dyanamic range. But this would likely have the AD count 10 electrons for each bit, and there are a number of tones missing. Demosaicing, white balance, and contrast processing contain multiplications and divisions where quanitzation errors are compounded. At 14 bits you can count every 3 electrons and reduce these errors. When displaying or printing this extra precission disapears, but the extra tones can yield better processing results.
 
Has nobody noticed that the new Sony chip is 12 bits, while all
Canon's newest SLR offerings are 14 bit? The increase in bit depth
should have a significant impact on image quality via more discrete
steps per color channel. This will be most important in shadow
detail, shadow noise, and in recovering shadows from raw files.
Has the Pentax shown any benefit from a 22bit ADC? None that I see. This seems like marketing more than anything else, or a move toward consistency. Perhaps the big pixels on the 1Dmk3 might squeeze out enough S/N that it needs 14bit, but I seriously doubt the 40D does.
 
We will not know who one upped who until Phil gets a chance to do some measurements on the camera's that use the Sony or Canon sensors. But based on the 40D press release, it sounds like Canon has made little improvement to its sensor technology in the last three years. So if there are some substantial improvements in Sony's design, it could make a big difference in their competitive position with Canon. In any case, the new sensor should generate more interest in some of Phil's reviews than we have seen for a while.
--
David Jacobson
http://www.pbase.com/dnjake
 

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