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chuxter

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I like the concept. I would buy one if someone like olympus actually made one. I would like to see the viewfinder able to fold away so that if one of the small lenses is being used the camera becomes pocketable. Also doesn't seem any point in not having a removable memory card or easily romavable battery - the cost outweights the benefit of a tiny space saving.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/graham_foster/

Its about getting out there and having fun
 
g_fos said:
I like the concept.
Click to expand...
Thanks.
g_fos said:
I would buy one if someone like olympus actually
made one. I would like to see the viewfinder able to fold away so
that if one of the small lenses is being used the camera becomes
pocketable.
Click to expand...
In my design, the VF is easily removable. Would that work?
g_fos said:
Also doesn't seem any point in not having a removable
memory card or easily romavable battery - the cost outweights the
benefit of a tiny space saving.
Click to expand...
Hmmm... Are you saying to remove the batterey and memory from the Body? Are you saying to make both removable? I can't tell...

Thanks for your comments...

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
Bridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/
 
The biggest problem i see is that the light has to go through quite a tortured angle to get to the sensor with such a flat camera, with so little space behind the camera. Which means distortion, fall-off, diffraction, etc.

Plus the lense looks like some cheap $100 optic from Soligor. :-D
chuxter said:
But don't know where else to publish this link...

http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/?page_id=27

Perhaps it will entertain those who are bored with the current crop
of cameras?

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
Bridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/
Click to expand...
--
Eric

Ernest Hemingway's writing reminds me of the farting of an old horse. - E.B. White
 
The concept is quite interesting. I did not yet have time to digest everything, but in relation to one of the points above, I fully agree that memory should be removable and replaceable (i.e. CF/memory stick/SD or whatever). I, and many others, use cards at a fast pace and swap them as they fill up on location, without time to transfer images. I think that any other solution would be disadvantageous.

It is not visually attractive, yet it could be ergonomic. For that it would need to be sufficiently small (I don't think you address the size question in a compreensive way), but probably for optical reasons (see post above) it would need to be thicker.

Otherwise, if good glass is available, if the EVF is fast enough, and AF works well enough, I certainly would like to try one!
--
Antonio

http://ferrer.smugmug.com/
 
I think both the battery and memory should be easily removable. Think of when somebody takes a camera on holiday - they may not have to the opportunity to download photos to a pc thus being able fill and change the memory is useful. Same goes for charging the batery - taking spares would mean longer between charges. Also flash memory is gettng larger & cheaper all the time - people may want to keep this camera for some time and what seems like a lot of memory when its new may just be average stick capacity in 3 years.

What I mean by cost benefit is:
Cost = not being able to do above
Benefit = very small space saving

A removable viewfinder is the first thing i'd loose! :-) Other people are better with these things though...
chuxter said:
g_fos said:
I like the concept.
Click to expand...
Thanks.
chuxter said:
I would buy one if someone like olympus actually
made one. I would like to see the viewfinder able to fold away so
that if one of the small lenses is being used the camera becomes
pocketable.
Click to expand...
In my design, the VF is easily removable. Would that work?
chuxter said:
Also doesn't seem any point in not having a removable
memory card or easily romavable battery - the cost outweights the
benefit of a tiny space saving.
Click to expand...
Hmmm... Are you saying to remove the batterey and memory from the
Body? Are you saying to make both removable? I can't tell...
Click to expand...
chuxter said:
Thanks for your comments...

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
Bridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/
Click to expand...
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/graham_foster/

Its about getting out there and having fun
 
ewelch said:
The biggest problem i see is that the light has to go through quite a
tortured angle to get to the sensor with such a flat camera, with so
little space behind the camera.
Click to expand...
Actually, you missed one of the PRIME advantages to this design. I really did try to stress it in several places, but you have to read the words not just look at the pretty pictures. ;-)

With a short-back-focus lens, the rear of the lens is almost touching the AA filter/hot mirror. The extra space you seem to pine for is totally unneeded.
ewelch said:
Which means distortion, fall-off, diffraction, etc.
Click to expand...
I understand distortion and fall-off (vignetting), but what are you thinking about re difraction?

NOW, concerning distortion and vignetting, that is "solved" nicely with a short-back-focus lens. People who have never experienced such a lens probably have no clue what I'm talking about.

I therefore direct you to the following links:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/R1/R1A3.HTM

where you will find this gem:

"It turns out that eliminating the large mirror box required in digital SLRs conveys huge optical benefits to the lens system. What's involved is reducing the "back-focus distance" of the lens, which makes it much easier to reduce chromatic aberration and other optical defects."

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/R1/R1IMATEST.HTM

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/R1/R1A13.HTM

Where you will find:

"Very low barrel and pincushion distortion."
"Moderate overall, with small effect on images..."
"Much less softening in the corners of the frame than we normally see."
"Very high resolution, 1,600 - 1,700 lines of strong detail."

ALso, go read Phil's R1 review here on dpr. He says:

"As you can see the DSC-R1 performs very well, its maximum falloff of 16% at wide angle and maximum aperture (F2.8) is well below our 'noticeable' threshold of 20%. Compare that to the EOS 20D with its 'digital' EF-S 17-85 mm lens (price $599), it exhibits potentially noticeable falloff at wide angle up to F5.6. Note that we have used the EOS 20D in this comparison, results with the EOS 350D (Digital Rebel XT) would be identical."

"I'll get the obvious out of the way first, this camera delivers great images in no small measure thanks to its superb lens, you would have to spend quite a lot on separate lenses for a digital SLR to come close to this lens. Starting at an adventurous 24 mm equiv. F2.8 and through to 120 mm F4.8 it exhibits no optical issues worthy of concern and produces plenty of resolution for that ten megapixel sensor."

http://www.answers.com/topic/short-back-focus

“The proximity of the rear element to the image sensor greatly enhances the possibilities for wide angle and very wide angle lens, enabling them to be made smaller, lighter (containing less glass), faster (larger aperture), and less expensive.”

The above are required reading!

My point in all this is that having a short-back-focus lens (not one like the Canon EF-S series) will do the opposite of what you are predicting. The QI will be spectacular and the price reasonable.
ewelch said:
Plus the lense looks like some cheap $100 optic from Soligor. :-D
Click to expand...
OK...I'll accept that one. Have you ever tried to make a model of a lens? ;-)

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
Bridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/
 
Pedagydusz said:
The concept is quite interesting. I did not yet have time to digest
everything, but in relation to one of the points above, I fully agree
that memory should be removable and replaceable (i.e. CF/memory
stick/SD or whatever).
Click to expand...
I agree. Did you read about and understand that when equipped with a hand grip, the memory and battery are conventionally removable. It's just the "Body" that doesn't have an easily removable battery (I was thinking there would be a door behind the LCD, where it could be replaced when it dies.). The "Body" would also have a permanent, small memory. These were just to enable the "Body" to function in a primitive way w/o a hand grip.

If you DID understand the distinction between the 4:3 Camera w/ and w/o the hand grip, then I assume you are saying you think it should have both the battery and the memory easily removable?
Pedagydusz said:
I, and many others, use cards at a fast pace
and swap them as they fill up on location, without time to transfer
images. I think that any other solution would be disadvantageous.
Click to expand...
OK, I need to work on that...
Pedagydusz said:
It is not visually attractive, yet it could be ergonomic.
Click to expand...
Form follows function? I believe that a functional camera is attractive. We've become used to heavily "styled" products. Besides, this is just a primitive model to basically test the ergonomics.
Pedagydusz said:
For that it
would need to be sufficiently small (I don't think you address the
size question in a compreensive way), but probably for optical
reasons (see post above) it would need to be thicker.
Click to expand...
Yes, I have skipped the size issue...sorta. I DID tell you that the "Body" was 4" x 3" x 1". With that information, you could determine the size of the other components.
Pedagydusz said:
Otherwise, if good glass is available, if the EVF is fast enough, and
AF works well enough, I certainly would like to try one!
Click to expand...
Why make this camera with "bad" glass? The eVF and AF are design issues. They can be as good or bad as the designer wants. We have the technology.

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
Bridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/
 
g_fos said:
I think both the battery and memory should be easily removable. Think
of when somebody takes a camera on holiday - they may not have to the
opportunity to download photos to a pc thus being able fill and
change the memory is useful. Same goes for charging the batery -
taking spares would mean longer between charges. Also flash memory is
gettng larger & cheaper all the time - people may want to keep this
camera for some time and what seems like a lot of memory when its new
may just be average stick capacity in 3 years.

What I mean by cost benefit is:
Cost = not being able to do above
Benefit = very small space saving
Click to expand...
The cost is not an issue. My rationale was to keep the size of the "Body" down. The HUGE LCD touch-screen occupies about 30% of the volume. The sensor, filters, u-processor card, etc fill the rest. I crammed in a small flash memory and a thin LiIon battery (like in a cell phone). The battery can be changed, but it will be done much like in a cell phone, not in a camera. Changing to a removable flash memory is not a bad idea...pull out the battery and then slip out the SD card. I'll do some design work and see if that is feasible...
g_fos said:
A removable viewfinder is the first thing i'd loose! :-) Other people
are better with these things though...
Click to expand...
The Ricoh Caplio GX100 has a removable eVF. They stole my idea! But, like dummies, they stupidly put in in the middle, lined up with the lens. Duh!

Do you loose lenses? How about spare batteries and flash cards? ;-)

Come on! Be consistent. First you gig the design because it didn't have a removable flash card on the "Body". Then you DON'T gig me because it has removable lenses. You should either want an all-in-one camera or a camera system.

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
Bridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/
 
An optional hand grip would not be too difficult to make
yourself. use some aluminum bar about 1 by 1/4 inch, bend 3 inches of
one end to a right angle, bind with some sort of tape, on the other
part of the bar make a slot to accommodate a screw that will fit
the tripod socket of the camera. Slide in and out as desired.
 
Charlie, I wasn't too sure about your design the first few times I looked at it but it does actually have possibilities.

First thing, about the removeable VF, I'm not too keen on that myself, how about giving the back of the body some vertical space on the left side (you might have to go with a smaller LCD as a result but that'd fine with me), with an indent at the top where the VF could slide over to and fold into the body... essentially doing the same thing as removing it, except it's still there and always ready if needed.

Based on the mod above, the 2nd thing I'd do is make the VF position adjustable. Some may prefer it be at the edge, others may prefer it aligned to the center of the lens position. Having the VF protrude enough would solve the nose smudging too. Also, I think that aligning the VF with the lens makes it feel a bit more natural for composing, especially if framing a shot vertically.

Third is something that's bothered me for awhile, even before digital... having a mode dial and one or more thumbwheels performing aperture or shutter-speed selection, depending on the mode you're in. Why not fall back to a pseudo-classic setup, where you could design a rocker-type ring around the outside of the lens barrel, which would act as an aperture dial, like it used to be found on lenses? Have a snap-in point for auto and you're in shutter-priority. In this way, the thumb-dial on the back/front would always be for shutter-speed... again this would have some kind of snap-in position that would put it in auto, giving you aperture-priority... put both of these dials in auto and you're in program auto-exposure. The result would be you'd not need to have a mode dial at all (unless you want to add a bunch of silly scene modes) or use the mode dial for something else... ISO maybe?

The hand-grip: I kinda skimmed through the left-hand/right-hand idea but I'm assuming you're talking about being able to buy two versions of the same grip?... one left, the other right? If not, and you want one grip to be able to be mounted on either side, then you'd need to reposition the shutter button to the center so it accommodates everyone equally.

Built-in memory and battery, I'd definitely want those to be easily replaceable.

Oh and add a little solar panel somewhere so I'd have some juice in a pinch ;)
--
Martin ( http://www.jpgmag.com/people/mschf )
Photography is 4% gear, 8% location, 90% anticipation...
It doesn't take a genius to add it all up!
 
remote photography. Clip to eyeglasses?

Firewire to lCD on remote control paddle? Neat.
--
marion aka OTD one of those Duc Klub people.

 
innovative designs always attract me because, even if everyone criticizes, there is always something to learn from other people's ideas.

there are just two little reasons why I would not buy this camera :
a - a battery change takes a mechanic
b - swapping memory cards takes a mechanic

if I were to be a studio photographer I might think differently about that.

however, the modular design approach is a great idea, I believe.
 
Way to go! You even covered the dominant or missing eye problem.

With such a modular approach, an astute manufacturer could even offer a version with a pemanently mounted lens and splash proof body. Ultrasonic motors make the concept of AF capable lenses a practical reality.

I would add custom programming to the list of features. Instead of a CD with some downgraded photo software, one would get the ability to custom program the camera's menu feature set from your own computer. Don't like the default noise reduction options? Change them! Whit balance not to your liking? No problem.

What about a flip and turn LCD?
--

'While not exactly disgruntled, he was far from feeling gruntled. He spoke with a certain

what-is-it in his voice, and I could see that, if not actually disgruntled, he was far from
being gruntled.'
~ Pelham Grenville Wodehouse (1881-1975)
 
Martin, as you prolly know, I trust your opinions and appreciate your comments. With that behind us, see my comments below...
mschf said:
Charlie, I wasn't too sure about your design the first few times I
looked at it but it does actually have possibilities.
Click to expand...
Thanks. Radical things like this often need some "gestation" time...
Member said:
First thing, about the removeable VF, I'm not too keen on that
myself, how about giving the back of the body some vertical space on
the left side (you might have to go with a smaller LCD as a result
but that'd fine with me), with an indent at the top where the VF
could slide over to and fold into the body... essentially doing the
same thing as removing it, except it's still there and always ready
if needed.
Click to expand...
A smaller LCD/touch-screen would compromise the ability to control things easily. I don't quite understand your "...indent at the top where the VF could slide over to and fold into the body..." idea. Can you expound a bit?
Member said:
Based on the mod above, the 2nd thing I'd do is make the VF position
adjustable.
Click to expand...
My design has the VF mountable on either end.
Member said:
Some may prefer it be at the edge, others may prefer it
aligned to the center of the lens position.
Click to expand...
That's a problem with a LCD/touch-screen. Nose gestures are unpredictable!
Member said:
Having the VF protrude
enough would solve the nose smudging too. Also, I think that aligning
the VF with the lens makes it feel a bit more natural for composing,
especially if framing a shot vertically.
Click to expand...
I believe that's because you've always seen cameras with the VF centered.
Member said:
Third is something that's bothered me for awhile, even before
digital... having a mode dial and one or more thumbwheels performing
aperture or shutter-speed selection, depending on the mode you're in.
Why not fall back to a pseudo-classic setup, where you could design a
rocker-type ring around the outside of the lens barrel, which would
act as an aperture dial, like it used to be found on lenses? Have a
snap-in point for auto and you're in shutter-priority. In this way,
the thumb-dial on the back/front would always be for shutter-speed...
again this would have some kind of snap-in position that would put it
in auto, giving you aperture-priority... put both of these dials in
auto and you're in program auto-exposure. The result would be you'd
not need to have a mode dial at all (unless you want to add a bunch
of silly scene modes) or use the mode dial for something else... ISO
maybe?
Click to expand...
I like that. In my design, there is already an electronic ring on the lenses for MF. Why not use it for aperture too. I rarely do MF, but adjust the aperture often. I'm going to sleep on that...
Member said:
The hand-grip: I kinda skimmed through the left-hand/right-hand idea
but I'm assuming you're talking about being able to buy two versions
of the same grip?... one left, the other right? If not, and you want
one grip to be able to be mounted on either side, then you'd need to
reposition the shutter button to the center so it accommodates
everyone equally.
Click to expand...
Yes, one hand grip would not work on both sides.
Member said:
Built-in memory and battery, I'd definitely want those to be easily
replaceable.
Click to expand...
Yep, everybody else reacted negatively to that too.
Member said:
Oh and add a little solar panel somewhere so I'd have some juice in a
pinch ;)
Click to expand...
Nah...

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
Bridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/
 
LeRentier said:
innovative designs always attract me because, even if everyone
criticizes, there is always something to learn from other people's
ideas.

there are just two little reasons why I would not buy this camera :
a - a battery change takes a mechanic
b - swapping memory cards takes a mechanic
Click to expand...
Actually, I modified the design and updated the Bridge Blog page already. Now, both batteries and both memory cards are easy to replace/swap. Anyone with a college degree will prolly have difficulty, but all the gradeschool kids will be available to help. ;-)
LeRentier said:
however, the modular design approach is a great idea, I believe.
Click to expand...
I agree. One of the points I didn't expound on is that the manufacturers tend to have higher margins on accessories, so a design that is modular should be profitable. Of course, if they "****" their customers like some guys do, it's not a good idea for us! But with an open, modular approach, there is room for small companies to support the design (think of the iPod and the hundreds of accessories on the shelves).

I'd think the primary manufacturer would package the basic parts as "kits". Things like the left-hand grips might be special order, as the vast majority of customers will want the right-hand setup. Things like the cable to remote the VF and hand grip, would be special order. Ditto the special glasses to mount the VF.

I see...er, hear...a complete industry to supply wierd "shutter" sounds...sorta like ring tones. I personally don't want these, but I'm sure my kids would!

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
Bridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/
 
Humboldt Jim said:
Way to go! You even covered the dominant or missing eye problem.
Click to expand...
My father-in-law is blind in one eye and can't see out of the other one. I'm sensitive to that issue.
Humboldt Jim said:
With such a modular approach, an astute manufacturer could even offer
a version with a pemanently mounted lens and splash proof body.
Click to expand...
The standard "kit" could include instructions and glue to make any lens "permanent". ;-)

Actually, all you have to do is to put a bit of Silicone grease on the lens-to-body-seal, mount the lens, and defeat the button that allows the lens to come off.
Humboldt Jim said:
Ultrasonic motors make the concept of AF capable lenses a practical
reality.
Click to expand...
Yes. I see these increasing in the future...so I figured why design for legacy lenses. Yet, I want to be able to use MF legacy lenses.
Humboldt Jim said:
I would add custom programming to the list of features. Instead of a
CD with some downgraded photo software, one would get the ability to
custom program the camera's menu feature set from your own computer.
Don't like the default noise reduction options? Change them! Whit
balance not to your liking? No problem.
Click to expand...
It's already in there. Read again?
Humboldt Jim said:
What about a flip and turn LCD?
Click to expand...
Since the LCD is also a touch-screen, I decided to NOT make it twist. Not only are there issues with the interconnections, but also the touch screen is not very user friendly if twisted...

Thanks for your good comments.

--
Charlie Davis
Nikon 5700 & Sony R1
HomePage: http://www.1derful.info
Bridge Blog: http://www.here-ugo.com/BridgeBlog/
 
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