Foveon sensor

Ronald Marvin

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If the Foveon sensor is not truly 14 megapixels, then why do its detractors insist on their consistent tirade against it? If the Bayer sensor is superior they shouldn't have to bother. Why are the detractors threatened and feel the need to denigrate an inferior product? Me thinks ye doth protest too much!
 
It all gets rather tedious, since it all comes down to what one's definition of a "pixel" is, and people not only don't agree, but often use conflicting definitions in the same sentence themselves. I say the SD14 is a 4.7 mega full color pixel camera, and simply ask the Bayer crowd how many red sensors their camera has, and how they claim any more full color pixels than that (and there is a not-completely-illegitimate answer that accounts for some of it).

In any case it don't mean diddly . . . all that matters is whether you are happy with the way your camera handles color detail at its resolution limit (and what that limit is). Most of us here chose our Sigmas for that reason. People who are content with what their D200 or 5d or whatever does will revel in the other "features" they have which the Sigmas may or may not have. There is no "best" camera anyway . . . only (perhaps) a camera the compromises in which best suit your current needs (which is hardly influenced by someone else's needs, is it . . .).

Of course when someone asks I'll be glad to explain the virtues I see in the SD14, by itself and in comparison to other cameras. I don't find "14 megapixels" useful in that explanation at all . . .
 
The Foveon sensor has nothing to fear used by the right photographer. Discussing pixels and megapixels means nothing compared to looking at the end output AS A PRINT.
--
Zone8

The photograph isolates and perpetuates a moment of time: an important and revealing moment, or an unimportant and meaningless one, depending upon the photographer's understanding of his subject and mastery of his process. -Edward Weston
 
If the Foveon sensor is not truly 14 megapixels, then why do its
detractors insist on their consistent tirade against it? If the
Bayer sensor is superior they shouldn't have to bother. Why are the
detractors threatened and feel the need to denigrate an inferior
product? Me thinks ye doth protest too much!
Yes, I think they do protest too much. I suppose I appreciate their zeal in trying to protect me from myself. And maybe I don't have a clue but I very much like my SDXX cameras. And for me that is enough.
 
If the Foveon sensor is not truly 14 megapixels, then why do its
detractors insist on their consistent tirade against it? If the
Bayer sensor is superior they shouldn't have to bother. Why are the
detractors threatened and feel the need to denigrate an inferior
product? Me thinks ye doth protest too much!
Nice try.

But being one of those that discuss megapixels I must say you missed by a mile or two :)
If the Foveon sensor is not truly 14 megapixels,
There is no such thing as truly. Megapixels is defined - it is not a law of nature how to count.
then why do its
detractors insist on their consistent tirade against it?
it? Do you mean the notion of megapixels or do you mean the Foveon sensor?

constant? The pixel discussion here is much less constant than the red detectors on a Bayer CFA sensor. Great holes where none exists.
If the
Bayer sensor is superior they shouldn't have to bother.
Now - what has superior to do with megapixel counting? None - that I am aware of. The SD14 is exactly the same camera no matter how you count the pixels on its sensor.
Why are the
detractors threatened
Hmmmm ... the only real threat is age. Eventually the day will come.

The megapixel threat I have never heard of.
and feel the need to denigrate
I had to look that up. Belittle is a synonym.
an inferior
product?
What inferior product?
Me thinks ye doth protest too much!
Thats fully possible. But - why do you care?

--
Roland
 
If the Foveon sensor is not truly 14 megapixels, then why do its
detractors insist on their consistent tirade against it? If the
Bayer sensor is superior they shouldn't have to bother. Why are the
detractors threatened and feel the need to denigrate an inferior
product? Me thinks ye doth protest too much!
Yes, I think they do protest too much. I suppose I appreciate their
zeal in trying to protect me from myself. And maybe I don't have a
clue but I very much like my SDXX cameras. And for me that is enough.
I try not to assume motives or judge others' intentions, but I too am somewhat mystified by the zeal in that continuing discussion. From a strictly scientific POV and IF a relatively undisputed definition were possible (how many 150 post threads to date?) I guess I couldn't object to a gentle tug on the reins when one or another of us got artificially excited about the odd pixel here or there. But I just don't see that that the presumably honest differences of opinion as to the unrefereed terminology to include those which choose to portray Sigma/Foveon favorably against the benchmarking of Bayer technology rise to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors against the consumer. That poor so and so called the customer, by the way, seems to fall in and out of favor in these exchanges - one minute being defended against the Sigma use of the language (inter alia) and the next being dismissed as irrelevant to the discourse.

Ah, well, "aquila non captat muscas".

Regards,
--
Ed_S
http://www.pbase.com/ecsquires
 
If the Foveon sensor is not truly 14 megapixels, then why do its
detractors insist on their consistent tirade against it? If the
Bayer sensor is superior they shouldn't have to bother. Why are the
detractors threatened and feel the need to denigrate an inferior
product? Me thinks ye doth protest too much!
Nice try.

But being one of those that discuss megapixels I must say you missed
by a mile or two :)
If the Foveon sensor is not truly 14 megapixels,
There is no such thing as truly. Megapixels is defined - it is not a
law of nature how to count.
then why do its
detractors insist on their consistent tirade against it?
it? Do you mean the notion of megapixels or do you mean the Foveon
sensor?

constant? The pixel discussion here is much less constant than the
red detectors on a Bayer CFA sensor. Great holes where none exists.
If the
Bayer sensor is superior they shouldn't have to bother.
Now - what has superior to do with megapixel counting? None - that I
am aware of. The SD14 is exactly the same camera no matter how you
count the pixels on its sensor.
Why are the
detractors threatened
Hmmmm ... the only real threat is age. Eventually the day will come.

The megapixel threat I have never heard of.
and feel the need to denigrate
I had to look that up. Belittle is a synonym.
an inferior
product?
What inferior product?
Me thinks ye doth protest too much!
Thats fully possible. But - why do you care?

--
Roland
That is "truly" the most bizarre reply I have ever seen to a post in here. Was it some sort of class assignment? An exercise in finding fault where none exists?

Ronald simply asked a few questions; reasonable ones, in my opinion. No need to slam him for it.

--

'If they're not screaming at you to get out of the way, you're not close enough' http://www.ChuckLantz.com
 
That is "truly" the most bizarre reply I have ever seen to a post in
here. Was it some sort of class assignment? An exercise in finding
fault where none exists?
It was meant to be bizarre. That was its only purpose.
Ronald simply asked a few questions; reasonable ones, in my opinion.
Hmmmm ... do you really believe that?

I could sense some irony in the wordings. If I am wrong there - then I am wrong.
No need to slam him for it.
No harm meant - and I hope Ronald forgives me for being bizarre. He has nearly the same name as me after all.

--
Roland
 
Beats me.

But then again, the same is also true in reverse.

Having shot over 1250 shots now with my SD9, I feel somewhat more familiar with Foveon image quality vs bayer. And you know what, I don't really care so much anymore about the debates. Reason why? Because it makes very little difference what sensor is in the camera.

If I have learnt anything from the ongoing exercise of compare and contrast, it's that Michael Reichmann was right all along: these cameras are all sufficiently good image wise. They each have their characteristics - "look", if you like - (I particularly like the Foveon treatment of out of focus backgrounds) but it's more a case of personal preference than absolute quality. No camera or sensor has everything.

If you have to choose just one camera, pick the camera that feel right in your hand, where the controls are conveniently and logically placed and abandon pixel keeping. All these cameras are better than the majority of photographers.

Last weekend was a family outing but I still managed to shoot several hundred pics with 3 different cameras. And the truth is that the image quality differences are swings and roundabouts.

The one factor that had the biggest effect on my photography during the trip was the small buffer/long write times of the SD9. For the first time since I moved to DSLRS I was missing shots because the camera actually froze on me when firing short bursts of just 3 or 4 shots. And that is really frustrating when you are shooting wildlife from a moving boat and a missed shot is gone for ever. This is something Sigma need to address. A Raw format camera with a 4 shot buffer and glacial write times is cheap point & shoot territory, not premium DSLR. I hope, but suspect not, that the SD14 can do better.
If the Foveon sensor is not truly 14 megapixels, then why do its
detractors insist on their consistent tirade against it? If the
Bayer sensor is superior they shouldn't have to bother. Why are the
detractors threatened and feel the need to denigrate an inferior
product? Me thinks ye doth protest too much!
--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/mainindex.htm
 
David, I'd like to make an observation on your photo galleries, which bears perhaps on your oft-stated inability to see a difference in a SDx photo vs one from another camera. This is complimentary, really ;-)

I've spent some time looking at your online gallery photos, as I had (the coastal sunrises, sunsets) even before you acquired the SD9. Your photos have a very, very strong personal style to them. I could not have picked out your weblondon photos as being SD9s. In fact I was rather surprised. They looked like your work, but not necessarily SDx photos. Same on the Cambian Sands photos.

On the other hand, those of us, and I put myself firmly in this category, who do more... ummm generic landscapes for example, can often see which photo I do with my Pentax DSLR and which with my Sigma SD10 DSLR (thinking of my Death Valley photos, only a tiny portion of them are online).

My style isn't so pronounced that it makes my choice of camera essentially irrelevant. Your style is much stronger and individualist. You make the camera yield a certain output, rather than the camera greatly influencing the ' look of your photos. Does that make sense to anyone? Especially David?
Best regards, Sandy
[email protected]
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann
 
Not only are our names similar, but my great grandfather, Andrew
Rosberg had to disavow all allegiance to the King of Sweden when he
immigrated to this country.
And now - it does not matter. Our king today is just remnant from the past. He gets some millions of money each year to himself and his family. Sad story really.

--
Roland
 
DMillier wrote:
snip
If I have learnt anything from the ongoing exercise of compare and
contrast, it's that Michael Reichmann was right all along: these
cameras are all sufficiently good image wise. They each have their
characteristics - "look", if you like - (I particularly like the
Foveon treatment of out of focus backgrounds) but it's more a case of
personal preference than absolute quality. No camera or sensor has
everything.

If you have to choose just one camera, pick the camera that feel
right in your hand, where the controls are conveniently and logically
placed and abandon pixel keeping. All these cameras are better than
the majority of photographers.

Last weekend was a family outing but I still managed to shoot several
hundred pics with 3 different cameras. And the truth is that the
image quality differences are swings and roundabouts.

The one factor that had the biggest effect on my photography during
the trip was the small buffer/long write times of the SD9. For the
first time since I moved to DSLRS I was missing shots because the
camera actually froze on me when firing short bursts of just 3 or 4
shots. And that is really frustrating when you are shooting wildlife
from a moving boat and a missed shot is gone for ever. This is
something Sigma need to address. A Raw format camera with a 4 shot
buffer and glacial write times is cheap point & shoot territory, not
premium DSLR. I hope, but suspect not, that the SD14 can do better.
snip

Hello, David,

Overall I think that's a fair and honest assessment. And as has been mentioned in other conversations - not necessarily to you in particular - one really needs to fit the equipment to your shooting style. Some of us who are either dinosaurs or otherwise stick to methods which were learned (of necessity) with less mechanized film cameras or which we otherwise came by of other honest means, don't use the rapid bursts and so it's just less of an issue for us. Your shooting style apparently benefits from it. And so I can't really argue with your assessment for you.

Appreciate your other positive comments as well. Enjoy what works best for you.

Kindest regards,
--
Ed_S
http://www.pbase.com/ecsquires
 
David, I'd like to make an observation on your photo galleries, which
bears perhaps on your oft-stated inability to see a difference in a
SDx photo vs one from another camera. This is complimentary, really
;-)
I've spent some time looking at your online gallery photos, as I had
(the coastal sunrises, sunsets) even before you acquired the SD9.
Your photos have a very, very strong personal style to them. I could
not have picked out your weblondon photos as being SD9s. In fact I
was rather surprised. They looked like your work, but not
necessarily SDx photos. Same on the Cambian Sands photos.
On the other hand, those of us, and I put myself firmly in this
category, who do more... ummm generic landscapes for example, can
often see which photo I do with my Pentax DSLR and which with my
Sigma SD10 DSLR (thinking of my Death Valley photos, only a tiny
portion of them are online).
My style isn't so pronounced that it makes my choice of camera
essentially irrelevant. Your style is much stronger and
individualist. You make the camera yield a certain output, rather
than the camera greatly influencing the ' look of your photos. Does
that make sense to anyone? Especially David?
Best regards, Sandy
[email protected]
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann
Sandy, It makes sense to me. What you are saying is that, to you, it looks like it wouldn't matter what camera he used, the result comes out based on how he wants it to look. So for David, it (again) doesn't matter which camera he uses. I don't know if that is true or not, of course, but it could be true. It could explain a lot. Or he could just take pictures of images that he finds appealing and those particular images are of such a nature that they would not be much affected by whatever sensor/camera he was using.

On the other hand, there is no doubt that for many people the camera being used results in a different look to the image, which may explain the continuing appeal, to some misguided souls, even to those who own digital SLRs, of film based rangefinders. These people don't care that much about framing and frames per second for certain images, and for certain subjects and uses they prefer the rangefinders. Isn't that silly of them, one might say, considering how superior the 5D is? Or even the most basic SLR?

And it is easy enough to see how the dreadful limitations of the 4x5 sheet film cameras result in them not being used much for weddings and events, hence rendering such cameras useless and deficient compared to Bayer sensor cameras. Given such limitations, of course, no pro would use a sheet film camera.

The question tends to become whether the ghastly, terrible, crippling, and intolerable limitations of the Sigma cameras and the Foveon sensor result in a particular style of use, or of images, that result from those limitations, as well as those that could result from any hopelessly misperceived, purported, and falsely claimed benefits from the camera/sensor. The idea would be, one would think, that people would use the camera for what it does best, in their view, and alternatively, one might feel inclined, even if not consciously, to use the camera in a certain way that favors the best outcome, resulting in a certain "look" to the results. Of course, that might be the result of either a conscious analysis of the results or of just an unconscious, more intuitive, reaction to the images and the camera itself.

One would think.

Richard

--
My small gallery: http://www.pbase.com/richard44/inbox
 

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