Is This an Idiot's Game

George Sears

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Camera makers like to announce new image processors, often with higher pixel count sensors. The two go together, or do they? Basically, if you need more processing to make a sensor 'work', that could simply be considered a problem. This is most obvious with noise suppression. These days, the higher 'resolution' is smeared removing the noise. Or maybe what one pixel resolves isn't very useable, any more.

If you take a camera with a large sensor and large pixels, you can see that each pixel gets it just about right. If there is a fine line somewhere, you can see precisely how the line is defined. In shadow, the color remains about right, and things are still relatively crisp.

How hard do you have to process an image as a photosite gradually diminishes in size? Is there any 'real' detail at the pixel level? How much do they have to massage the data to make it useable? How aggressively do they fight noise, using what techniques? At some point 'active' processing is the same as making stuff up, 'drawing' an area based on parameters, but without much integrity at the basic pixel level.

The gripe would be that this is essentially stupid. If you use a larger pixel, you get better data from each photosite. Then you don't need so much processing. If you want to process for other effects, fine, but even here you have better data to start, with larger photosites, so better data when you end. Processing is also boosting darker areas, using contrast curves, adding differential saturation, and other things that may create pleasing results. A camera company like Canon can claim it has a definite look. This, by itself, seems fair in the marketplace. But how is this aided by adding pixels, and forcing more processing, even before the picture is massaged to create the Canon look?

Recent reviews seem to indicate that adding pixels to a fixed size sensor is not effective in increasing resolution. When a camera company says it is giving us a lot more pixels, and a fancier processor, what are they really saying?

Why exactly isn't this an idiot's game?
 
Recent reviews seem to indicate that adding pixels to a fixed size
sensor is not effective in increasing resolution. When a camera
company says it is giving us a lot more pixels, and a fancier
processor, what are they really saying?

Why exactly isn't this an idiot's game?
I agree with everything you say..very much. But sadly once one goes on a mp feast..they all update their cameras.

From my feelings, I remain happy with my 6mp APS SLR for IQ..very clean images, and pixels are very sharp, means better enlargements. I would put it against any 10mp+ compact for printing.

But big numbers sell, always have. They fed the public this mp nonsense..and they bought it..so hey its easy pickings for companies..up the mp, nice stickers on the box...your 5/6mp compact owner thinks "wow 12mp..gotta be great!"..

Those of us clued into reality, know differently.

Same for ISO, I mean I think its appaling companies are touting "ISO 6400" when we know full well, its unusable..and awful.

LCD's are as big as they can get 3"...simply put they have run out of ideas..or dare not use larger sensors.

Its a mugs game that is for sure..problem is as time goes on, its getting harder to get those smaller mp cameras, that probably do have better IQ than the double digit one.

Now some companies are worse than others..no question, ala marketing. Panasonic must be among the worst (ISO 6400), when in reality ISO 400 isnt so hot. Casio too...IQ has just fallen through the floor...even the once mighty anti mp fuji..have jumped in with a new 12mp compact.

Vote with your wallet..just say no thanks.

--



Clint is on holiday! Soon to return! ;-)
 
Camera makers like to announce new image processors, often with
higher pixel count sensors. The two go together, or do they?
Basically, if you need more processing to make a sensor 'work', that
could simply be considered a problem. This is most obvious with noise
suppression. These days, the higher 'resolution' is smeared removing
the noise. Or maybe what one pixel resolves isn't very useable, any
more.

If you take a camera with a large sensor and large pixels, you can
see that each pixel gets it just about right. If there is a fine line
somewhere, you can see precisely how the line is defined. In shadow,
the color remains about right, and things are still relatively crisp.

How hard do you have to process an image as a photosite gradually
diminishes in size? Is there any 'real' detail at the pixel level?
How much do they have to massage the data to make it useable? How
aggressively do they fight noise, using what techniques? At some
point 'active' processing is the same as making stuff up, 'drawing'
an area based on parameters, but without much integrity at the basic
pixel level.

The gripe would be that this is essentially stupid. If you use a
larger pixel, you get better data from each photosite. Then you don't
need so much processing. If you want to process for other effects,
fine, but even here you have better data to start, with larger
photosites, so better data when you end. Processing is also boosting
darker areas, using contrast curves, adding differential saturation,
and other things that may create pleasing results. A camera company
like Canon can claim it has a definite look. This, by itself, seems
fair in the marketplace. But how is this aided by adding pixels, and
forcing more processing, even before the picture is massaged to
create the Canon look?

Recent reviews seem to indicate that adding pixels to a fixed size
sensor is not effective in increasing resolution. When a camera
company says it is giving us a lot more pixels, and a fancier
processor, what are they really saying?

Why exactly isn't this an idiot's game?
Unfortunately the companies are more interested in winning the spec sheet war, not the IQ war.

This whole race for more megapixels also has the side-effect of negating the sequential technological progress. The hardware may be getting faster but now it has to haul, process and store an extra 1-3 megapixels per picture.

Perhaps dpreview and others can create an image quality metric, with the higher number meaning better picture, and then perhaps the manufacturers will start making IQ a top 5 priority, instead of "we'll worry about it after we come up with the specs" :)

--

Comprehensive 2007 speculation and predictions: http://1001noisycameras.blogspot.com
 
Take a random clueless guy on the street, ask him if he'd prefer a 5MP camera or a 12MP camera? What do you think his answer is?

I have heard moronic reasons from people who have supposedly "studied" photography in "courses".. "More megapixels = better camera, no argument".
 
You and I are photo conscious, most of the buying public isn't and this fuels the MP, ISO smearing game for CEO's of these publically traded companies. If the actual truth were known not many would even give a rats rump if their camera or technology is better than their competition as long as it sells and produces a profit for the shareholders.

Gone are the days of simply being the best you can be in spite of profits. It should be manditory for all CEO's to read Ayn Rand's book "The Fountainhead" and absorb the principles it teaches, don't compromise your ideals for monetary gain.
--

' You don't have to have the best of everything to get the best out of what you do have'.

 
Recent reviews seem to indicate that adding pixels to a fixed size
sensor is not effective in increasing resolution.
Which recent reviews? I just checked three recent reviews from DPReview and they show the opposite of what you claim. The 10Mp E-410 outresolves the 7.5Mp E-330. The 10Mp G7 outresolves the 7Mp G6. The 8Mp S5 outresolves the 6Mp S3.

All three examples are very recent reviews of cameras that increased the pixel count on the same sized sensor. This resulted in increase resolution in all three tests. And I just checked a few more and each one shows more pixels results in greater resolution. I have yet to find one single exception. Which specific reviews are you referring to?
Why exactly isn't this an idiot's game?
Which game - the one where people make assetions without supporting evidence?

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
Of course more megapixels does not automatically mean better pictures, and the posters who agree with you are focusing on that point. Of course there's no need for the onwer of a 6MP camera to feel they absolutely MUST upgrade to 10MP or they're missing out on something.

But you overstate the case, to the point where you seem to be claiming that higher resolutions are a complete waste of time in all cases, with no benefits to any photographer, and in fact might even result in lower picture quality.

And based on simplistic (and inaccurate) statements such as this
If you use a larger pixel, you get better data from each photosite.
I don't think you're making a very sound argument.

Companies like Nikon and Canon don't release higher-resolution cameras that produce rubbish results, hoping the market won't notice. They do make some effort to actually improve their products each model release, you know.

Even if those improvements are, I agree, sometimes exaggerated in the minds of some consumers.

(Actually, I don't recall the last time I saw Canon or Nikon make "more megapixels" the MAIN focus of their publicity around a new model release.)

--

 
The camera industry is a one-trick pony that got very rich giving us one pixel increase at a time when in could very well have been five at a time. They have trained us very well so we are very obedient and compliant. The very, very small percentage of the readers of DPR cannot make a dent in World wide sales. DPR also needs a very high turn over of models to survive. Amazon also knows this will continues for a very long time or they would not have been interested in DPR.

Look at the menu of subjects DPR provides at the top left hand corner of this page and take away the very rapid release of cameras and you have forums where we talk about new models and why haven't they tested mine yet?
--
Bob,

'Sometimes I get to places just when God's ready to have somebody click the shutter.' Ansel Adams

Sony R1
Canon Pro1
Casio Z750
Nikon 3100

 
Ditto. I just made a 16 X 20 print of an ISO 1600 image from my "old" 6MP DSLR. The printer at the lab was having some major issues, so some of the bad prints were sitting on the counter. People were coming over to take a look and could not believe the quality of the image. There were some lines through the prints but one could see a more life like image than one typically finds from higher mp count cameras.
 
Look at the menu of subjects DPR provides at the top left hand corner
of this page and take away the very rapid release of cameras and you
have forums where we talk about new models and why haven't they
tested mine yet?
25 new compact models and 1 DSLR were announced in the month of July 2007. This only counting the major manufacturers. Not including rebadgers like Minox, BenQ, etc.

The only way dpreview can reivew all these is if they make 10 clones each of Phil and Simon!

--

Comprehensive 2007 speculation and predictions: http://1001noisycameras.blogspot.com
 
Jay Turberville wrote:
And I just checked a few more and
each one shows more pixels results in greater resolution. I have yet
to find one single exception. Which specific reviews are you
referring to?
Try the FZ-50 compared to the FZ-30...notice the res increase is tiny.

Also, I would hardly suggest that the new E cameras are the last word in image quality either...

--



Clint is on holiday! Soon to return! ;-)
 
Jay Turberville wrote:
And I just checked a few more and
each one shows more pixels results in greater resolution. I have yet
to find one single exception. Which specific reviews are you
referring to?
Try the FZ-50 compared to the FZ-30...notice the res increase is tiny.
Sure. But it is an increase. Also, the difference depends a lot on what you use as your criteria, absolute or extinction. Also, the older FZ-30 achieved its resolution with color moire visible. The FZ-50 did it without moire visible.

The assertion of no increase in resolution stands unsupported.
Also, I would hardly suggest that the new E cameras are the last word
in image quality either...
So what? That was hardly the point. I'm merely challenging the assertion about resolution that everybody seems to have let go by unsupported and unchallenged. The question of overall image quality is much more complex that just a question of resolution and has been hashed out in many threads in the past.

But if you don't want to consider Olympus, then consider Nikon. The 10Mp Nikon D40x outresolves the 6Mp Nikon D40. I'm pretty sure the D2X outresolves the D200 as well. The simple fact is that finding a camera with increased pixel count that doesn't outresolve a predecessor with the same sensor size and lower pixel count isn't very easy. In other words, the reality is quite the opposite of what was asserted.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
Sure. But it is an increase. Also, the difference depends a lot on
what you use as your criteria, absolute or extinction. Also, the
older FZ-30 achieved its resolution with color moire visible. The
FZ-50 did it without moire visible.

The assertion of no increase in resolution stands unsupported.
Far from it..I just showed one example of where extra mp does almost nothing at all.
So what? That was hardly the point. I'm merely challenging the
assertion about resolution that everybody seems to have let go by
unsupported and unchallenged. The question of overall image quality
is much more complex that just a question of resolution and has been
hashed out in many threads in the past.
I agree. IQ is more than res or mp..far far more.
But if you don't want to consider Olympus, then consider Nikon. The
10Mp Nikon D40x outresolves the 6Mp Nikon D40. I'm pretty sure the
D2X outresolves the D200 as well. The simple fact is that finding a
camera with increased pixel count that doesn't outresolve a
predecessor with the same sensor size and lower pixel count isn't
very easy. In other words, the reality is quite the opposite of what
was asserted.
I never bought a camera because one "outresolved" another. Its a rather limited way to look at things. If you want to know how much difference there is in res between the E-500 and E510..its not even worth talking about.

IQ is tones, hues, sharpness, high ISO performance...noise, details etc etc...not just "res".

Once we got to 4/5/6/7 mp anything else is small. Take a 5mp image, you need 20mp to double it..and even then..will it print twice the size as good? Probably not.
--



Clint is on holiday! Soon to return! ;-)
 
The assertion of no increase in resolution stands unsupported.
Far from it..I just showed one example of where extra mp does almost
nothing at all.
Almost nothing is not nothing. The extinct resolution is much higher and the "absolute" resolution is not only higher, but is cleaner with no moire.

You showed one example of a small increase, but an increase nonetheless.
I never bought a camera because one "outresolved" another. Its a
rather limited way to look at things. If you want to know how much
difference there is in res between the E-500 and E510..its not even
worth talking about.
I agree. I stopped being very concerned about resolution after my Coolpix 5000 (5Mp). All subsequent cameras were purchased largely for other reasons. That said, I'd suspect an E-510 will noticably outresolve my Coolpix 5000. But since the CP5000 makes very nice 11x14 prints, that extra bit of resolution isn't going to matter much very often.
Once we got to 4/5/6/7 mp anything else is small. Take a 5mp image,
you need 20mp to double it..and even then..will it print twice the
size as good? Probably not.
My rule of thumb is that a doubling of the megapixel count is where differences in resolution are likely to be easily noticed.

Perhaps we have a problem with semantics here and the meaning of "effective", "significant" etc. The OP was not arguing that 10% increases in resolution are insignificant. I'd agree with that. He was complaining about smeared pixels etc. and saying that the pixels count increases aren't "effective" at increasing resolution. Well, the simple fact is that with darned few exceptions (I'm still waiting to see even one), they are. Whether their effect is important, significant or worth shelling out more money for is a whole 'nuther thing and something that needs to be dealt with case by case.

--
Jay Turberville
http://www.jayandwanda.com
 
But big numbers sell, always have. They fed the public this mp
nonsense..and they bought it..so hey its easy pickings for
companies..up the mp, nice stickers on the box...your 5/6mp compact
owner thinks "wow 12mp..gotta be great!"..
Well yes, but... it wasn't nonsense back in the 'old' days when 1 or 2 mpx sensors were the norm. More pixels really was a benefit. The problem now is that we have sensors with enough pixels for most users so it's just marketing BS that's making it carry on. Unfortunately I can't see it ending until consumers stop buying these so called 'upgrades'.
J
 
Perhaps dpreview and others can create an image quality metric, with
the higher number meaning better picture, and then perhaps the
manufacturers will start making IQ a top 5 priority, instead of
"we'll worry about it after we come up with the specs" :)
Perhaps in camera reviews when compared with previous generations of the camera they can stop using the green (i.e. improvement) highlight on the sensor mpx.... Use no highlight, let the reader decide from the rest of the review whether it is an advantage or not. It's simplistic stuff like that that uneducated buyers will pick up on.

Just a thought...

J
 

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