basic question with probably many answers

prevacidman

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but I just want to take a poll.

You walk into a dark reception at the country club with a 5D, 24-70 2.8, and 580 flash. It's time for walkaround candids of wedding guest,bride and groom, etc.... What are your settings? AV,TV,M ISO, FLASH,shutter speed,aperture.,etc

Yes I know "dark" can mean a million things. I just want to see what most people do. Thanks and here are some examples of the location.



 
If it's close and reasonably white: RAW AV f2.8 200ISO EC -1/3 FC -1/3 to -1 with flash at ceiling, might be workable. My first (test shot) would allow refinement, but I'd really need to see the exact location.

How dark is dark? If ceiling far away or red, I'd love to try out that new Gary Fong plastic toy!
--
Jon Stewart
 
but I just want to take a poll.
You walk into a dark reception at the country club with a 5D, 24-70
2.8, and 580 flash. It's time for walkaround candids of wedding
guest,bride and groom, etc.... What are your settings? AV,TV,M ISO,
FLASH,shutter speed,aperture.,etc
Very low light, no bright background? Manual camera mode, high iso
of 1000 upward. 5D performs well as high iso, so no fear there. Aperture
as open as possible for shallow dof and ambient help. I also manual
focus with the lens.

Alternatives are to add an extra flash or actually put a studio strobe
behind you to bounce light into the room.

Do not move off M mode unless you can maintain basic ambient settings
in Av or P mode.

Finally, take a hand meter and find target ambient settings. If light is
very low and high iso can't do the trick, then the flash has to do the work
or you just don't take the shot.
Yes I know "dark" can mean a million things. I just want to see what
most people do. Thanks
 
If it's close and reasonably white: RAW AV f2.8 200ISO EC -1/3 FC
-1/3 to -1 with flash at ceiling, might be workable. My first (test
shot) would allow refinement, but I'd really need to see the exact
location.
Why 200 iso, assume the interior is low lights? You are using a 5D,
so no real need for iso 200, IMHO. I shoot most of our ad work @
1000 iso and above on interior jobs and clients love the ambient
light. Actually, they wonder how that is done when the last guy in
only had dark and dingy pictures?
 
My question is why do I have a 5d,24-70 at 2.8 with a 580 and getting shutter speeds of 1/30 1/15 or less at ISO of 800. I had to go to TV mode a force the shutter to stay at 1/60th and of course my camera was giving readings that it was a not a good exposure. I want and need to learn more WAY before I jump into this for weddings and stuff. This picture I took from the stage.

 
How I typically shoot in a similar situation is to keep the camera in M mode so the shutter does not drag and blur becomes a problem.

My starting baseline is ISO 200, 1/125th and f/5.6. I adjust as needed from that baseline. 1/125th ensures there is no shake with the 24-70mm I usually use with flash and f/5.6 is a good compromise between DOF and the amount of flash power needed.

Unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise, such as a wide establishing shot in a series I like to fill the frame with the subjects in the foreground and let the flash fall off to contrast and separate them from the background clutter. It's a matter or person taste and in part due to the fact that I am old school and really don't mind if a flash shot looks like it is a flash shot if taken indoors.

I use two flashes whenever possible. I keep my fill on a bracket over the lens with a diffuser, and my off camera light is on a modified IV stand - five compact legs with wheels make it effortless to maneuver, even at a party as these shots illustrate: http://super.nova.org/MAG070128/

The room was very dark so capturing much ambience was not an option, so having two flashes added some punch to the lighting. The stand on wheels is what makes the two flashes practical. Credit Monte Zucker for that brilliant idea - I learned it from him 35 years ago.

The simplest approach with two flashes is to simply park the off camera flash behind and to the side of the action being capture. In fact in the 5th shot at the link above you can even see part of the off camera flash in the photo. I left that one in because the lady in it is a friend and its a funny candid capture of her.

When shooting without 2 flashes isn't feasible all it takes is a flip on the switch on the base of the 580ex on the bracket from Master to Off to be shooting in solo flash ETTL mode.

When there is a need for more ambience I will raise the ISO speed and slow the shutter to what I think I can hand hold.

CG
 
Had no idea how low the light was, since I hadn't seen the original pics, or I would have gone to higher iso, prob about 800. Agree completely about keeping as much ambient light as possible, and only using flash where necessary to augment.
--
Jon Stewart
 
Chuck with this setting that is your starting baseline,does the camera let you know it is a proper exposure...is it -2,0, or what. Is is blinking to signify it is right or what? In other words with these settings (or close to it) is my camera meter going to say -2, -1, or 0. This is great info. Your posts are always helpul.
How I typically shoot in a similar situation is to keep the camera in
M mode so the shutter does not drag and blur becomes a problem.

My starting baseline is ISO 200, 1/125th and f/5.6. I adjust as
needed from that baseline. 1/125th ensures there is no shake with
the 24-70mm I usually use with flash and f/5.6 is a good compromise
between DOF and the amount of flash power needed.

Unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise, such as a wide
establishing shot in a series I like to fill the frame with the
subjects in the foreground and let the flash fall off to contrast and
separate them from the background clutter. It's a matter or person
taste and in part due to the fact that I am old school and really
don't mind if a flash shot looks like it is a flash shot if taken
indoors.

I use two flashes whenever possible. I keep my fill on a bracket
over the lens with a diffuser, and my off camera light is on a
modified IV stand - five compact legs with wheels make it effortless
to maneuver, even at a party as these shots illustrate:
http://super.nova.org/MAG070128/

The room was very dark so capturing much ambience was not an option,
so having two flashes added some punch to the lighting. The stand on
wheels is what makes the two flashes practical. Credit Monte Zucker
for that brilliant idea - I learned it from him 35 years ago.

The simplest approach with two flashes is to simply park the off
camera flash behind and to the side of the action being capture. In
fact in the 5th shot at the link above you can even see part of the
off camera flash in the photo. I left that one in because the lady
in it is a friend and its a funny candid capture of her.

When shooting without 2 flashes isn't feasible all it takes is a flip
on the switch on the base of the 580ex on the bracket from Master to
Off to be shooting in solo flash ETTL mode.

When there is a need for more ambience I will raise the ISO speed and
slow the shutter to what I think I can hand hold.

CG
--
http://www.thatsagreatpicture.com
 
Chuck with this setting that is your starting baseline,does the
camera let you know it is a proper exposure...is it -2,0, or what.
Is is blinking to signify it is right or what? In other words with
these settings (or close to it) is my camera meter going to say -2,
-1, or 0. This is great info. Your posts are always helpul.
I shoot in M mode and rely on flash to light the foreground so the ambient metering really doesn't come into play.

I control the flash exposure using FEC. It's typically about + 1-2/3 when using the foam diffusers.

I adjust the ISO (up to 800) and shutter speed for more or less ambient based on what I see in the playback, not the ambient meter indicator which will usually be at -2 because the ambient is so low.

Aperture is my primary creative control because it creates sharpness contrast between what is most important in the photo and everything else. When Tv is used the camera controls aperture and with it DOF and creative control is lost. Thus

using Tv makes little sense in shooting situations other than trying to stop action, and even then M affords more creative control. It makes no sense at all indoors with flash because it will just force you aperture wide open in low light and you'll lose DOF.

If I need to light up a whole room I will crank up the ISO, drop the shutter speed and bounce my second flash off the ceiling. You may be surprised how big of a room you can light up that way:



For that photo the fact the ceiling was high worked to my advantage. I zoomed the head of the off camera light out to max telephoto manually -- bare flash -- and aimed at the ceiling about 1/3 of the way to the guy on stage, which helped to light up the far side of the room.

I don't normally use flash during services at church, but in this case I was asked to document this guest minister both for the church and his web site. Here are a couple other shots where I combined two 580ex flashes and ambient. Both of these were retouched to tone down some hot spots.





You might find these two tutorials helpful:
http://super.nova.org/DPR/Canon/Exposure/
http://super.nova.org/DPR/FlashWhen/

CG
 
Prevacid, I assume that you're trying getting those long exposures in Av mode?

If that's the case, it's because of how Canon's flash system meters while in Av mode. To make a long story short, it's basically "Fill Flash mode" meaning it tries danged hard to expose the photo with ambient light first and foremost, which causes those long exposures.

As an example, I just tested my XTi+430ex in this very dark room.

In P mode (just to get a baseline for how the camera thinks to expose with the flash) and at ISO 100 it chose 1/60, f3.5(wide open on my lens).

In Av mode @ ISO 100, it chose 2.5secs, f3.5.

As you can see, there's a huge discrepancy in shutter speed there while ISO and aperture are the same.

Av via ETTL doesn't really lend itself well to dark indoors. It works reasonably nice outside to expose the picture very naturally, but dark indoors, shooting in M (or Tv) is far more practical. If you need to get a really solid background exposure in a dark room, put the flash in second curtain sync.

My two cents,

Matt
--
http://mattmcc.smugmug.com
 
Well, since no one else is going to say it, I guess I will.

Chuck, your pictures look horrible again.

They look like they could have been taken in Carlsbad Cavern. Dragging the shutter is not a bad thing if your main exposure is the flash because the flash creates its own shutter speed due to the short duration.

Plus in all your theory didn't you ever come across the idea that a flash placed more than 90 degrees from the camera axis can be considerably less powerful than the main because of the angle of reflection?

Prevacidman's photos give the impression of being more dimensional due to the fact that he has let the ambient light into the background. My only critique for most of his shots is that he should hold the camera straight.
 
Well, since no one else is going to say it, I guess I will.
Chuck, your pictures look horrible again.
They look like they could have been taken in Carlsbad Cavern.
Well that's pretty much what that the church service looked like -- except darker -- not like everyone was out on the lawn at high noon on an overcast day. Absent the flash large parts of each of those photos would look like a cave with no light.
Dragging the shutter is not a bad thing if your main exposure is the
flash because the flash creates its own shutter speed due to the
short duration.
No the flash freezes only part of the total exposure.

Dragging the shutter is simply not an option if people are moving. The flash will freeze them but there will also be blur from the ambient. If you want to stop action the only practical option is to overpower the areas where the movement will be detected with the flash
Plus in all your theory didn't you ever come across the idea that a
flash placed more than 90 degrees from the camera axis can be
considerably less powerful than the main because of the angle of
reflection?
You really don't have a clue what you are talking about. A highlight created from a light 15ft away from a surface at 90 or 180 degrees (hidden behind the couple in the last shot) will be equally bright as one 15ft away from 0 or 45 degrees. To the extent there is a difference when a light is placed more than 90 degrees to the side (i.e. behind) the subject it is due to the fact that the fill on the camera may not overlap the highlight raising its intensity,
Prevacidman's photos give the impression of being more dimensional
due to the fact that he has let the ambient light into the
background.
Are you referring to the Gallery shots in the brightly lit rooms or the ones he posted of the party in the dark room?

What perhaps you aren't grasping here is the fact the actual ambience of the rooms were different -- brightly lit party room vs dark church sanctuary.

Of course if the room is brightly lit you would want to take advantage of the ambient light. That is exactly the advice I give in http://super.nova.org/DPR/FlashWhen/

But when you are in a room with a brightly lit stage and dark audience there is a different problem to solve, wouldn't you agree? Different problems require different solution.

CG
 
At my receptions in ballrooms with very little ambient, my settings will start in M mode (always!) at ISO 800, 1/60 sec. and f/4. Now depending on the ambient light, I may go down to 1/30. The flash will prevent most camera shake or movement. If that is still not enough, I will open keep opening up to 2.8 if I have to. But 1/60 at 4 usually gives me a pretty nice background.

Mike
--
'Change the way you look at things, and the things you look at change.'
 
Bill,

I rarely put a camera up to my eye unless I have a clear idea in my mind what I message I want the photo to convey and what specific things I want the viewer to focus on in relative order of importance. Both are accomplished with a combination of lighting and composition. For me it is a nearly unconscious effort because I've shot that way for so long.

The measure of success or effectiveness in a photo is whether the viewer sees what you want them to see in it, and it creates the emotional reaction you want it to. That emotional reaction could the one yourself felt and which compelled you to raise camera to eye to record it, or one which is contrived to deliver some message.

To my way of thinking simply filling up a room with even light doesn't accomplish those goal and is not very effective, at least in most situations. The difference between a snapshot and making a photograph is planning the lighting and composition to provide visual clue regarding the relative importance of things. In a complex busy scene the travel of the viewer's eye along that path of clues is largely what will create the viewers reaction to the photo.

So to clarify, I'll explain the goal for these three out of the three hundred or so shots I took that night. First some context. I was asked to document the service PJ style because our church has a visual / fine arts ministry which uses photography for posters, programs, and power point presentations before services start. As usual for assignments I do there I wasn't given many instructions or specifics of what they were looking for, beyond capturing the feeling of worship. How's that for challenge, eh? Added to it was the fact I didn't really know what would happen when during the service.
This shot was intended for use as an establishing shot, with no other goal so show the space and the fact it was filled with people. Taken at the start of the service it was also the means to test and fine tune my ISO settings.
For this shot, which I carefully planned, the intention was to convey the feeling of the audience intently listening to the message of engaging dynamic speaker.

Perhaps you first noticed the guy in the audience in the white and black checker board shirt. He is the planned primary focal point for the photo and where I aimed the off camera light. The message in this shot is more about the audience reaction to the speaker than the speaker himself and shining the key light spotlight on the audience on the far side and framing them with the backs of the people on the near side was, I thought, an effective way to convey this. Also the senior pastor of our church and his wife are sitting to the left of the guy in the white shirt and some of his pastoral staff is sitting in that row. I felt their intent expressions would convey the added message that the speaker was so good he even had our pastor totally engaged to the people at our church who would recognize him.

You might also notice that the same key light which highlights the far side also subtly rim lights the speaker which separates him from the background which I actually darkened during editing so his darker shirt and the rim would contrast more. He's also captured in near perfect profile... He was very animated so I just had pick my spot and wait for him to turn the right direction. He's not as brightly lit because he is secondary to the intended message of this photo.
The intent in the shot above was to try to convey the sense of illumination into the meaning of the scripture the visiting evangelist was providing. He had approached me before the service and specifically asked me to take some shots he could use for promoting his ministry. In his message he alluded to the alabaster jar shown on the screen, which is why its in the background. The off camera light was actually pointing right at the camera, but flagged by the couple large in the foreground who are the intended center of interest. As in the photo above the intent was to convey the impression the speaker had on the audience by making some part of it the primary visual center of interest and him the secondary one. The rim light, while contrived, hopeful leave the impression the service was an illuminating engaging experience.

So while they might look like photos taken in a cave to you, they accomplish all the goals I wanted them to.

CG
 
No the flash freezes only part of the total exposure.

Dragging the shutter is simply not an option if people are moving.
The flash will freeze them but there will also be blur from the
ambient. If you want to stop action the only practical option is to
overpower the areas where the movement will be detected with the flash
The link you posted shows a bunch of people posed for photographs, apparently in a church sanctuary. You could have easily shot at a shutter speed well below what you used because the duration of your flash is providing the shutter speed for your main lighting. In similiar situations I have used a handheld shutter speed as low as 1/4 of a second. My flash has a duration of around 1/7000 of a second.
Let the background record with movement, it only adds separation to your image.
You really don't have a clue what you are talking about. A highlight
created from a light 15ft away from a surface at 90 or 180 degrees
(hidden behind the couple in the last shot) will be equally bright as
one 15ft away from 0 or 45 degrees. To the extent there is a
difference when a light is placed more than 90 degrees to the side
(i.e. behind) the subject it is due to the fact that the fill on the
camera may not overlap the highlight raising its intensity,
Of course, a light at the same distance has the same power no matter what angle it is from the camera. But the way it reflects is totally different. If you don't believe me, set up a subject and rotate the light around them while taking shots. I can often have my accent lights a full 2 stops lower than my main or else I'm they're going to be clipped on the exposure due to the specularity of the reflection. Despite what you believe, not having a fill doesn't raise the intensity of the light or even the apparent intensity of a light.

For all your theories Chuck, I have only seen a couple of your photographs I would be comfortable showing anyone else and I understand why you use drawings in your tutorials.
 
Of course, a light at the same distance has the same power no matter
what angle it is from the camera. But the way it reflects is totally
different. If you don't believe me, set up a subject and rotate the
light around them while taking shots. I can often have my accent
lights a full 2 stops lower than my main or else I'm they're going to
be clipped on the exposure due to the specularity of the reflection.
Despite what you believe, not having a fill doesn't raise the
intensity of the light or even the apparent intensity of a light.
Actually, this is true.

Mike

--
'Change the way you look at things, and the things you look at change.'
 
when I practiced the set up in a dark bedroom upstairs last night (5d 24-70 M 1/125 and 5.6 ISO 200 with 580 and lightsphere on top) it still shows -2 on exposure grid when looking through the camera. Will it always show this? Variations in this setup did not change the exposure settings that much...took major changes to aperute and shutter to get exposure at 0.
--
http://www.thatsagreatpicture.com
 
The camera is still metering. -2 is the range of the visual meter, so
that is what you see. It could be more in reality. If you raised the
iso within range, you would begin to see the ambient readings. Basically,
you settings are way, way below ambient.

Thus, an indication that 200 iso is not a good idea. The closer you
get to ambient, the less the flash has to work and the better the pictures.
If your meter was reading -1, then the flash would still be prime light
source, but you get less of the flash look.

A true ambient exposure in your room might be seconds long. In any case,
the 5D performs well at over 1000 iso, so bump it up as needed.
when I practiced the set up in a dark bedroom upstairs last night (5d
24-70 M 1/125 and 5.6 ISO 200 with 580 and lightsphere on top) it
still shows -2 on exposure grid when looking through the camera.
Will it always show this? Variations in this setup did not change the
exposure settings that much...took major changes to aperute and
shutter to get exposure at 0.
--
http://www.thatsagreatpicture.com
 

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