EU still pushing for dreadful digital camera tax?

Here's an explanation in Dutch (if someone knows an English text please provide it):

http://www.eu.nl/nederland/documents/heffing_digitale_camera.pdf

The European Commission apparently plans to introduce an additional import tax on digital cameras that output more than 720x576 pixels at at least 23fps for at least 30secs.

So if this goes ahead, what the EC has made sure of is that no way in hell any of the digital cameras brands will ever consider to introduce new cameras that perform over the current standard in Europe. Thanks you very much EU for screwing over YOUR European citizens and for keeping progress from reaching the European customer.

The EC's argument is that they wanna equalize tax on video and digital cameras. Well sounds reasonable, but why not get rid of this tax all together? If you choose to make people pay an additional and antique sounding import tax, why don't you make damn sure you explain why there is such a tax in the first place? Why can't we just import cheaper products from abroad which they can apparently produce cheaper and focus on the things we are good at, isn't that the whole idea behind trade?

This is why people are so sceptical about the EU over here in the Netherlands, they got lots of power, but often seem to putt business interest over citizen or general interest without even bothering to explain why. Too bad cause they seemed to be heading in the right direction the last couple of months.

--
http://flickr.com/photos/56983515@N00/
Current cam: TZ1
Wish cams: LX2 with Fuji F30 sensor and Pentax K100D super.
Wish lens: Tamron 18-250mm.

Where's a report of this in English. Sounds mad to me.
Jules

CSPronken said:

Here's an explanation in Dutch (if someone knows an English text
please provide it):

http://www.eu.nl/nederland/documents/heffing_digitale_camera.pdf

The European Commission apparently plans to introduce an additional
import tax on digital cameras that output more than 720x576 pixels at
at least 23fps for at least 30secs.

So if this goes ahead, what the EC has made sure of is that no way in
hell any of the digital cameras brands will ever consider to
introduce new cameras that perform over the current standard in
Europe. Thanks you very much EU for screwing over YOUR European
citizens and for keeping progress from reaching the European customer.

The EC's argument is that they wanna equalize tax on video and
digital cameras. Well sounds reasonable, but why not get rid of this
tax all together? If you choose to make people pay an additional and
antique sounding import tax, why don't you make damn sure you explain
why there is such a tax in the first place? Why can't we just import
cheaper products from abroad which they can apparently produce
cheaper and focus on the things we are good at, isn't that the whole
idea behind trade?

This is why people are so sceptical about the EU over here in the
Netherlands, they got lots of power, but often seem to putt business
interest over citizen or general interest without even bothering to
explain why. Too bad cause they seemed to be heading in the right
direction the last couple of months.

--
http://flickr.com/photos/56983515@N00/
Current cam: TZ1
Wish cams: LX2 with Fuji F30 sensor and Pentax K100D super.
Wish lens: Tamron 18-250mm.

Click to expand...

--
Black moles do not destroy information.

Correction 30min in stead of 30secs (typo), not that the typo makes a difference, many digital cameras are only limited by memory card space.

--
http://flickr.com/photos/56983515@N00/
Current cam: TZ1
Wish cams: LX2 with Fuji F30 sensor and Pentax K100D super.
Wish lens: Tamron 18-250mm.

I rarely use video formats on my compact digicams.

--
Feel free to visit my homepage: http://tom.st

THe text is a reply from an EC representative to a newspaper from the netherlands. In the newspaper, it is alleged that cameras will be subject to an import tax of 12.5% plus 19% BTW (the Netherlands' (quasi-) equivalent of the american VAT).
The representative points out that this is not really so.

-import tax: 4.9-12.5% on devices capable of recording 720x576 or more (I believe how much exactly depends on features such as video in etc) for at least 30 MINUTES.

-VAT-quasi-equivalent: Sure, this tax has to be paid on most goods. I think the EU average is 18% but not sure about this.

Some explanation:
On VAT:

Ever wondered why VAT in the US is lower than the european consumption taxes? VAT cumulates over different merchant levels, simple example, buy stones for 100 Dollars, pay 107 Dollars incl tax. Build wall and sell it for 150, charge buyer 160,50. Washington gets $17.50.

In Germany (19% "Added value tax"), you can deduct the taxes paid at the previous merchant level. Buy stones for 119 Eur, sell wall for 178.50, Berlin gets 28.5 Eur minus 19 Eur which you have paid before = 9.5 Eur.

On the import tax:

As soon as there are photo cameras capable of recording 720, this is only fair because otherwise manufacturers of Video Camcorders, which are subject to this tax, would be disadvantaged and people could evade the camcorder tax by using a camera instead. Whether the camcorder tax is legitimate is another question. Well, Canon could produce cameras in eastern Germany then they would not be subject to EU import tax..

O.
--
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--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ollivr/
http://www.flickrleech.net/user/ollivr

Tiffles said:

-import tax: 4.9-12.5% on devices capable of recording 720x576 or
more (I believe how much exactly depends on features such as video in
etc) for at least 30 MINUTES.

Click to expand...

Yes, 30 Minutes, well many cameras are only limited by the amount of space on the memory card. So normally they would be capable of exceeding 30minutes.

light_reaction said:

Whether the
camcorder tax is legitimate is another question.

Click to expand...

Well to me that's a very significant question as pointed out in the first post.

light_reaction said:

Well, Canon could
produce cameras in eastern Germany then they would not be subject to
EU import tax..

Click to expand...

Yes, why don't we all go back to the middle ages and produce everything ourselves?

--
http://flickr.com/photos/56983515@N00/
Current cam: TZ1
Wish cams: LX2 with Fuji F30 sensor and Pentax K100D super.
Wish lens: Tamron 18-250mm.

I suspect that camera manufacturers will simply turn that feature off (or cripple it so it does not fall under the 30 minute rule).

It is quite silly. I understand (from family who still live in Holland) that in an attempt to address illegal copies of movies, extra tax is levied on VCRs and recording media. Someone then figured out that a video camera can also be used as a VCR and as a consequence, many video cameras (in Holland anyway) cannot record like this (feature switched off to avoid the extra tax).

My dad is an avid videotographer and this really makes him mad. He cannot use the camera to record an edited movie.

I guess someone has now figured out that many digital cameras can take decent video, some will stream this until whatever storage device they use, is full.

I think this really sucks and pity the folk in Europe/Holland
--
AdB
http://www.albertdebruijn.com
Happy Canon 30D user

Tiffles said:

Some explanation:
On VAT:
Ever wondered why VAT in the US is lower than the european
consumption taxes? VAT cumulates over different merchant levels,
simple example, buy stones for 100 Dollars, pay 107 Dollars incl tax.
Build wall and sell it for 150, charge buyer 160,50. Washington gets
$17.50.

Click to expand...

The US doesn't have VAT. Different states might have a sales tax. Where I am presently living, there is no sales tax.

--
http://www.cantikfotos.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cantikfotos

you are correct. I wrote it the wrong way.
--
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http://www.flickrleech.net/user/ollivr

CSPronken said:

Yes, why don't we all go back to the middle ages and produce
everything ourselves?

Click to expand...

You mean like steel in the US?

O.

--
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http://www.flickrleech.net/user/ollivr

Tiffles said:

CSPronken said:

Yes, why don't we all go back to the middle ages and produce
everything ourselves?

Click to expand...

You mean like steel in the US?

Click to expand...

If your neighbour starts barking like a dog to people passing by, you gonna do the same? I see no reason to drag the US into this, we're talking about a European import tax on digital cameras (and yes I did note the smilie). I don't really see you disapproving this tax neither do I see you posting good arguments in it's favour.

--
http://flickr.com/photos/56983515@N00/
Current cam: TZ1
Wish cams: LX2 with Fuji F30 sensor and Pentax K100D super.
Wish lens: Tamron 18-250mm.

CSPronken said:

Tiffles said:

CSPronken said:

Yes, why don't we all go back to the middle ages and produce
everything ourselves?

Click to expand...

You mean like steel in the US?

Click to expand...

If your neighbour starts barking like a dog to people passing by, you
gonna do the same? I see no reason to drag the US into this, we're
talking about a European import tax on digital cameras (and yes I did
note the smilie). I don't really see you disapproving this tax
neither do I see you posting good arguments in it's favour.

Click to expand...

From a taxation politics pov, there are two good arguments for tariffs:
1) Generating income for the state
2) Protecting local industry

you could refine those arguments down to one economy taking advantage of the buying power generated in another etc but this would start to drag towards an undesiredly normative subdomain of economical discussion.

I did not "drag the US into this", I was trying to say that it is not completely exotic and unusual to tax imports. Every country/integrated economical region does this.

That being said, of course I personally would prefer not having taxes on cameras, beer, tobacco, income, food and fuel - it is just not gonna happen.

O.
--
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Tiffles said:

From a taxation politics pov, there are two good arguments for tariffs:
1) Generating income for the state

Click to expand...

1) I don't want my state to RANDOMLY introduce or increase taxes just to provide itself with income

2) The EU is not my state, so I don't like it to introduce or increase taxes just to provide itself with income

light_reaction said:

2) Protecting local industry

Click to expand...

1) What local industry?

2) Why should local industry be protected? Isn't it better if everyone just does what they do best and trade the results?

light_reaction said:

I did not "drag the US into this", I was trying to say that it is not
completely exotic and unusual to tax commodity imports. Every
country/integrated economical region does this.

Click to expand...

Not being exotic or unusual doesn't necessarily make it benificial or good policy for EU citizens.

light_reaction said:

That being said, of course I personally would prefer not having taxes
on cameras, beer, tobacco, income, food and fuel - it is just not
gonna happen.

Click to expand...

I'm not disputing the logic or necessity of a state taxing their citizens. I'm saying their must be:

1) A democratic basis (I consider the EU's democratic relation to it's citizens too weak to justify them just increasing taxes to provide themselves with more income).

2) I don't want the taxation to be completely random. If there is a good reason for a EU wide tax (like a fuel tax) I don't have a problem with that as long as it is compensated by lowering another tax.

3) It must be beneficial for it's citizens. I don't consider increasing the taxation pressure on EU citizens to protect a non existing industry (beneficial). And even if it did exist, become competitive or do something else.

--
http://flickr.com/photos/56983515@N00/
Current cam: TZ1
Wish cams: LX2 with Fuji F30 sensor and Pentax K100D super.
Wish lens: Tamron 18-250mm.

CSPronken said:

Tiffles said:

From a taxation politics pov, there are two good arguments for tariffs:
1) Generating income for the state

Click to expand...

1) I don't want my state to RANDOMLY introduce or increase taxes just
to provide itself with income

Click to expand...

Well, it does so - most taxes are not entirely created to direct people's behavior - you can observe this by looking at price-elasticities for example. By tendency, goods with an unelastic demand are taxed higher than others. Also, a state does need money. That doesnt necessarily have to make it a "Leviathan", of course.

CSPronken said:

2) The EU is not my state, so I don't like it to introduce or
increase taxes just to provide itself with income

Click to expand...

Well, you are part of the EC. The taxes collected are in part redistributed to the member countries.

CSPronken said:

CSPronken said:

2) Protecting local industry

Click to expand...

1) What local industry?
2) Why should local industry be protected? Isn't it better if
everyone just does what they do best and trade the results?

Click to expand...

Right. Many economical models suggest that there should be neither tarriff nor non-tarriff trade barriers worldwide and that this would increase global welfare. REalizing the barrier-free world is not so easy, though. Motions of tarriff trade barrier removement often result in non-tarriff trade barriers being set up as a replacement. Then there is political rationality/lobbyism etc.. difficult. And maybe some folks rather like to see their own welfare increased as much as possible, as opposed to reaching a "global pareto-optimum".

CSPronken said:

CSPronken said:

I did not "drag the US into this", I was trying to say that it is not
completely exotic and unusual to tax commodity imports. Every
country/integrated economical region does this.

Click to expand...

Not being exotic or unusual doesn't necessarily make it benificial or
good policy for EU citizens.

Click to expand...

For us two it is definitely not beneficial (at least from a short-term perspective) since we do buy camera gear.

CSPronken said:

CSPronken said:

That being said, of course I personally would prefer not having taxes
on cameras, beer, tobacco, income, food and fuel - it is just not
gonna happen.

Click to expand...

I'm not disputing the logic or necessity of a state taxing their
citizens. I'm saying their must be:

1) A democratic basis (I consider the EU's democratic relation to
it's citizens too weak to justify them just increasing taxes to
provide themselves with more income).

Click to expand...

Agree that the EU is very bureaucratic and that the single citizen has problems getting his interests adressed. As for the taxes: Note that we are not paying the tax alone. In general, the manufacturers pay part of the taxes because they have to sell their products cheaper (pricing can based on purchasing power, price elasticity). Not sure how much this is the case with cameras, though.

CSPronken said:

2) I don't want the taxation to be completely random. If there is a
good reason for a EU wide tax (like a fuel tax) I don't have a
problem with that as long as it is compensated by lowering another
tax.

Click to expand...

Afaik there is no EU wide fuel tax - only a minimum tax EU countries do have to charge. But not 100% sure about that. Also, it is not that random to tax high-tech goods not manufactured in the EU. E.g., we still do have Hifi and TV gear being made in the EU (maybe also camcorders? not sure) - consider Loewe and B&O, for example. The US have no TV manufacturer anymore as far as I know. Again, whether or not we should protect certain industries is a merely normative topic, and I rather not discuss that here.

Fairness means in the first place treating equal things the same and non-equal things not the same. If a camera does gove the same results as a camcorder at some point in time, it needs to be taxed appropiately. I was not trying to say anything else.

O.
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The EU was in principle...a good idea.

However the reality is a bunch of overpaid idiots..who are clueless...introducing more taxes and red tape.

But then you have that at home anyway!

There are ways round this...ebay ;-)

And they loose out again..and so does the retailer...

I buy most of my stuff non eu...and they can shove their taxes where the light doesnt go ;-)
--



Clint is on holiday! Soon to return! ;-)

CSPronken said:

This is why people are so sceptical about the EU over here in the
Netherlands, they got lots of power, but often seem to putt business
interest over citizen or general interest without even bothering to
explain why.

Click to expand...

wait, for a minute there, I thought you were talking about the US.

and the europeans think they are so different from the US.

I know they hate to admit it, but eu is becoming more like the US all the time...

--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~

linuxworks said:

CSPronken said:

This is why people are so sceptical about the EU over here in the
Netherlands, they got lots of power, but often seem to putt business
interest over citizen or general interest without even bothering to
explain why.

Click to expand...

wait, for a minute there, I thought you were talking about the US.

and the europeans think they are so different from the US.

I know they hate to admit it, but eu is becoming more like the US all
the time...

Click to expand...

Please explain...

linuxworks said:

--
Bryan (pics only: http://www.flickr.com/photos/linux-works )
(pics and more: http://www.netstuff.org ) ~

Click to expand...

--
Excal

A quick lesson on VAT...

VAT = Value Added Tax

The clue's in the name. All businesses must "add value" to the chain - from raw material to end product. If they don't add value, they aren't in business. It's set in the UK at 17.5% (for most produce). If a business tries to claim VAT back (as is normal), for more than the VAT it charges, then something is wrong - it's not in business because it's not adding value.

Say what you will about tax and how it's so bad, but without it, there is no government funded anything. Who will collect your refuse without it? Who will pave the roads?

And then there's the - why not have one tax on income and scrap all the others. The admin is reduced and it's fairer. But... fairer for who? eg. I don't smoke - it's my choice. So why should I subsidise the health care for smokers? Same with TV, car, etc. If an individual "chooses" not to have one, why should they pay for it?

Only a 2 things in this life are certain... death and taxation!

Now stop with the winging... it's not going to change anything!

Excal

There are other ways to tax than VAT to support important services.

Wasn't it designed to spur export?
Are we still in those days that justify the original rationale for VAT?

Remember the Spanish Alcabala. It was, in essence, a 10% "sales" tax at every level of transaction. It became, as I understand it, a millstone around the Spanish economy.
--
vsteffel

the problem with VAT is that it doesnt tax according to the economical performance-people with lower income consume a higher share of their income - accordingly, a bigger percentage of it is paid as tax.

The real problem of course is how to tax in a fair way. There are two basic concepts - 1. taxing in equivalence to a citizens usage of public goods and 2. taxing in dependence of the economical performance of a citizen. Both have pros and cons. In reality, countries use a mixed system.

O.
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