How Do You European Photographers Do It?

I guess you could always move to America if you feel so hard done by?
Is that a real solution to being ripped off? I'd say that's more like avoiding the problem than solving it :-)
BTW - do they have a free health service over there ;-)
No, unfortunately we don't. We pay a compulsory 'private' insurance policy of approx. $1500 per year, even if you're not using it. I haven't needed medical care in over 10 years, but I've paid thousands to 'subsidize' this system. Besides that, over 45% of my income (which isn't nearly like average American wages) goes to the state in the form of taxes. Not to mention 19% VAT on everything when you're spending whatever is left of the money sigh :-/

So, alas, no free healthcare for me, here.

Actually, I think about moving somewhere else from time to time. If I would eventually go, I think Canada would be the place for me.

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Basically, throughout the Disney cruise ship there were different areas where the Disney characters would be. Most of these areas were around the various dining rooms, and were setup with nice backdrops, lightboxes, etc. Some of them were just areas of the ship with a good background for taking a shot -- these were typically done without lightboxes and the photographer just had a double flash on a flash bracket mounted on the camera.

Unlike at the Disney theme parks, when they take your picture on the cruise ships, you don't get a number or ticket. You just frequently stop by the photo store on the cruise ship, called Shutters, look on the numerous posting boards for your photo(s), and then you either buy them or you drop them in a receptacle if you don't want them (to free up space on the posting boards). They of course offer several package options, where you can buy any eight 8x10's and eight 6x8's for something like $150. You can also switch packages if you notice that you seem to be getting more 6x8's and fewer 8x10's, etc. You can also just buy individual photos. For the most part, the formal photos (at dinner or posed shots with the backgrounds and lightboxes) were 8x10, while all the floating photographer shots were typically 6x8. They would also frequently send out an official Disney photographer on the off-ship excursions into Rome, Florence, Pompei, Monaco, etc. They were wearing an obvious uniform and would be positioned on the tours to take pictures of Disney tourists with an appropriate tourist backdrop, etc. I was envious of these photographers, because they were able to take in the tours while still working for Disney. They also took numerous boarding photos with characters, a background map of the area, etc.

Turnaround time for photos taken on or near the boat was just a few hours -- 1/2 day at the most. Any photos taken while on the off-ship excursions or late at night (like during the dinners) were typically available the next day. They print everything, and although my party only purchased about 50% of the shots taken, I was noticing that most of the guests were buying most, if not all, of them.

Again, I was surprised at the equipment they were using. I saw a lot more D80's than D2Xs. None of them had Canon equipment. I couldn't see the model number of all of the Nikons, but some of them looked very small -- definitely no bigger than my E-500. Two of the Disney photographers did comment on my Olympus E-500 (again it was a rather big setup at times when I would use the Stroboframe bracket and the rather large Vivitar 285hv). One said, "Nice setup...let me get out of your way...you don't need me..." He looked at my LCD after the shot and said, "Nice shot...the flash bracket helps a lot, doesn't it?" I then made him take a photo, too. He then showed me his shot on the Nikon LCD and said, "It's a toss-up." I thought he was being very nice considering that I felt a bit like a poacher, but I did tell him that I was spending a fortune at Shutters each day. Another female photographer confessed that she personally owns an E-1 in addition to other Nikon gear above and beyond the Disney issued stuff, and said they were really nice cameras.

One funny thing happened at one of the formal dinners. I brought my E-500 with flash bracket to get some photos of the other people in our party on the boat (two other families met up with us to go on the cruise), and when I was done taking some couples pictures and pictures of the kids, the group, etc., the table near us asked if I could get a group shot of them, and without any hesitation I said sure (my family and friends were quietly making fun of me for it). But right when I started to setup the shot and pose them better, etc., it dawned on me that they probably thought I was a Disney photographer. I was in a suit (formal dinner) with Disney logo strap around my neck holding my room keycard that looks rather like a nametag, and then I had that big ol' camera kit thing going on, too. So I said, "You do know that I'm not a Disney photographer, right?" Turned out that they thought I was, so I told them I would still take the picture and email it to them or something, but they declined and apologized repeatedly. I think they thought I would've charged them or something or maybe they just didn't want to inconvenience me. I guess that would've been genuine poaching though, as that would've prevented a photo sale for the Disney staff.

I think with a portable dye-sub printer, I could've made a small fortune working out cabin #6018....haha.

--

Chris

 
My sister-in-law (also on the trip) made a comment about petrol being so much cheaper over in Europe -- "Look, they're gas is only X.XX Euros, so that would be X.XX dollars, right?" I quickly corrected her that the price was per liter, not per gallon, and then further reminded her that they typical large bottle of Coca Cola she buys in America is two liters. She was shocked at the whole thing. I told her that explains why (1) the taxis are all manual transmission, (2) the taxis have no air conditioning, and (3) the taxis shut off the engine before loading all your luggage. Haha. It also explains all the little "gnat" cars and scooters buzzing around the streets over there instead of the extremely wasteful and beastly sized SUVs (sport utility vehicles) and (not so) "mini"-vans that you see all over the USA. I also thought the cars were nifty looking over there, compared to the boxey variety that Americans get. My entire party thought I was nuts when I was freaking over an original (old model) Mini Cooper. All the teenagers said, "I like the new one better." Misguided youth.

To think I frequently had dreams of retiring in rural Spain. I think I might have to settle for rural Texas instead. I can still speak and hear Spanish, and just pretend to be in Spain.

--

Chris

 
her that explains why (1) the taxis are all manual transmission, (2)
Nope. Europe didn't have vast straight highways and turnpikes and superhighways States did and had much more little binky winding roads. Nothing to do with the price of gasoline.

BTW, you can go to Germany and literally push the pedal to the metal on their autobahns, but everywhere else they have some kind of speed limit on highways. Usually 130km. Which almost nobody respects, but you can get fined. Especially if you're a tourist.
the taxis have no air conditioning,
Nope. Remember several years ago, when all those people in France died in a heatwave? Europe simply didn't have a culture of airconditioning, although it's changing quite rapidly. I have a guide for the visitors to the States issued by State Department some 20 years ago. They warn people to take jumpers, sweaters and stuff into restaurants and similar places because of airconditioning.
(3) the taxis shut off the
engine before loading all your luggage.
Never really thought about that one. But it might be because of the fumes. :-)
It also explains all
the little "gnat" cars and scooters buzzing around the streets over
Er, have you really noticed those streets? Europe, unlike the States is not built upon and around the automobile. That's why we have terrible congestions during rush hours here in Zagreb. The streets are not wide and big enough to take all the cars.
To think I frequently had dreams of retiring in rural Spain. I think
I might have to settle for rural Texas instead. I can still speak
and hear Spanish, and just pretend to be in Spain.
Rural Spain might still be nice if you can find it. Where you were was certainly touristy kind of places. It's a completely different kettle of fish. They will fleece you there.
 
It can only be that Europe is funding the cash back Olympus gives in America.

They sell one lens in Europe and can give cash back on two in America.
That way Olympus can compete in the american market.
 
simple answer Chris is that we avoid loosing our luggage on arrival and simply travel to the US with a large wallet. Saving time and hassle at the airport we imediatley gain enough time to stop off at Walmart for a set of bage and a few basics before arriving at the hotel and imediately going on line for delivery to the hotel (having arranged purchase status with the store beforehand to ease that one....). Enjoying the vacation most days now become like Christmas with presents arriving to be unwrapped and played with before finally packing up and heading home

;o)
 
I go on holiday from time to time and look at the prices. Sometimes I am shocked by the prices of photo gear in shops in England. But I wonder who buys those horrendously expensive photo media cards. What I buy for £5 seems to cost £15 in shops and in touristy parts even more.

Equally i often see stuff abroad that is dearer and stuff that is cheaper. I could make money buying shoes in Uk shops and taking them to France, for example.

But much more to the point: exchange rates are artificial and if talking about USA $ then going through th roof. Equally are we comparing like with like? I mean whaqt would genuine European beer cost in America? How much could you afford if the average USA wage was compared to the average UK wage and then used for the exchange rate?

Take taxes I get the first fifteen thousand income tax free (in USD) and then pay 10% on the next US$4,500 and 22% on the rest but get a state pension from the Govt of US $15,650 pa and my medical treatment is free. How does that compare with the USA? What's the average wage and state pension in the USA and the cost of medical treatment etc.

For the record, I just don't think we could make a valid comparison without a lot of us getting true figures and so on.

Regards, David

BTW my E-500 and two lens kit was £369 plus delivery but are you talking about the same two lenses and the rest of the gear?
 
My wife is a freelance graphic designer, and she can purchase "VAT free" her professional stuff (photographic stuff included), so it's her that buys most of my cameras and lenses.

In this way, the prices are close to these in the USA: "only" 60 € of difference in a 510+14/42 kit, for example. The bad side is that she knows all my purchases...

The difference between income in the USA and other countries in EU (like Spain for example) is another (and debatable) matter that can vary widely the equation.

--
http://endikag.zenfolio.com/
 
her that explains why (1) the taxis are all manual transmission, (2)
Nope. Europe didn't have vast straight highways and turnpikes and
superhighways States did and had much more little binky winding
roads. Nothing to do with the price of gasoline.
But all the gear shifting is what would make for better use of an automatic transmission. At least that's the train of thought in America.
the taxis have no air conditioning,
Nope. Remember several years ago, when all those people in France
died in a heatwave? Europe simply didn't have a culture of
airconditioning, although it's changing quite rapidly. I have a guide
for the visitors to the States issued by State Department some 20
years ago. They warn people to take jumpers, sweaters and stuff into
restaurants and similar places because of airconditioning.
That's very true to my experience. I sat in a SpanAir airplane in Zurich for 45 minutes on the runway...without air conditioning. No one else seemed to have a problem, but I was dying. And then everyone started whipping out the cigarettes and smoking. Haha.
(3) the taxis shut off the
engine before loading all your luggage.
Never really thought about that one. But it might be because of the
fumes. :-)
I thought that was a little weird myself. When we were in the taxi and they'd pull up to the destination, they'd also turn off the engine and leave the keys in the ignition, and then make sure everyone got out okay. I assumed they were conserving every mililiter of gasoline that they could.
It also explains all
the little "gnat" cars and scooters buzzing around the streets over
Er, have you really noticed those streets? Europe, unlike the
States is not built upon and around the automobile. That's why we
have terrible congestions during rush hours here in Zagreb. The
streets are not wide and big enough to take all the cars.
I moved to Japan when I was 16 years old (driving age for the USA), so I not only learned to drive in a very little car on very small streets, but I also learned how to drive on the "wrong" side of the road. The traffic and driving in Spain and Italy didn't phase me at all -- the wife and kids were going crazy over it, but for me it was old hat. My wife kept saying, "This bus is not going to fit in there...." -- haha.
To think I frequently had dreams of retiring in rural Spain. I think
I might have to settle for rural Texas instead. I can still speak
and hear Spanish, and just pretend to be in Spain.
Rural Spain might still be nice if you can find it. Where you were
was certainly touristy kind of places. It's a completely different
kettle of fish. They will fleece you there.
Yeah, the taxi drivers fleeced us, as they rate for the same route kept increasing over the two weeks...haha. Oh, well. I live in a tourist town in the USA, so I know the games that are played. No big deal.

It was pretty much a once in a lifetime opportunity for all of us to go over there and nose around, so we had a lot of fun. Very different way of life, and I will definitely be even more accomodating than usual when I spot an obvious European tourist visiting over here! I'm sure that a visit to the USA can be equally daunting and surprising.

--

Chris

 
BTW my E-500 and two lens kit was £369 plus delivery but are you
talking about the same two lenses and the rest of the gear?
If this was directed toward me -- it was the E-500 two-lens kit with the 14-45 and 40-150. I personally own the SE kit, which came with the 17.5-45 instead of the 14-45, but they regular kit is the same price I paid for my SE kit now. The markup was incredible.

I'm sure it's just a boutique type of pricing, similar to the way Ritz and Wolf Camera stores are here in America. Ritz store prices are much higher than internet prices from like Adorama, Vanns, B&H, etc. I just found it interesting that some items (memory cards and other accessories) were about the same price range, but the actual cameras (even the point-n-shoot models) were all about twice the normal USA price -- even USA brick and mortar store prices.

--

Chris

 
Not to mention the price of Adobe CS3!!!!!!!!
But how do you European folks do it? Is it just like America where
online prices are better? If so, they'd have to be MUCH better (a
bigger difference ratio than here in America). Prior to going on the
trip, I told my wife that if my camera system was stolen or broken,
I'd just hop into one of the European stores and buy the E-510
(haha). My wife would've killed me had I paid those prices.
Hahaha.. yeah.. I'm laughing but actually it's quite sad how we're
being systematically ripped off. Have you seen what we're paying for
gas and for our cars?

Take for example a Volkswagen Passat. Interesting, because they're
made in this neck of the woods. For a moderately engined model we pay
the equivalent of $61,000, whereas in the US the same model goes for
a whopping $23,100. That's almost three times as cheap (and they have
to ship it to the States first).

Then we have to fill up the tank. For gas (converted into US units)
we pay the equivalent of $7,75 per US gallon. Again, that's 2.5 times
what you guys pay. I weep when I fill up my tank, because I part with
around US$108 everytime I "fill 'er up".

It's criminal. But what can you do?

--------------------------------------------------------------------
My Travel Galleries (asia, middle east, latin america)
http://www.pbase.com/brambos

--
The older I get the better I used to be!
 
Hey Chris,

Seems like you folks had a rockin' good time!

Thanks for the detailed reply.

I've got this crazy idea of a ménage à trois between event photography, artistic portrait photography, and a photo booth.

I'm currently trying to engineer the "process" so that clients can view, order, and receive their images in the most timely, efficient, and satisfying manner.

Your input should be very helpful.

Thanks again,

Ralph
 
I guess you could always move to America if you feel so hard done by?

BTW - do they have a free health service over there ;-)
Actually, there is no free health service ANYWHERE. It is just a question of how the health service you have gets paid for. Some countries use taxes, some use health insurance. Maybe there are other models as well. But in EVERY western country, the costs are bourne by the middle class and the poor (deserving or not) get served for free.

Nothing in this life, anywhere on the planet, is without cost. Moving to another country will just change how you end up paying for health service. It won't change the fact that you have to pay for it!

--
STOP Global Stasis! Change is good!

Now that you've judged the quality of my typing, take a look at my photos. . .
http://www.photo.net/photos/GlenBarrington
 
Chris its not only Europe.

I think that a lot of people in the USA do not realise how lucky you guys are with the products and pricing you get.

I brought in a E-510 ( Twin lens Kit) from B&H into South Africa it cost me $999 and at extra $400 Freight, Duty and VAT.

It’s the freight that really hurts( $169) the Duty and VAT is like death and taxes (Unavoidable).

The up side is that the camera ( Twin Lens Kit) will launch here for around $ 1750 including VAT but has a 2 Year warranty. So I am still ahead if nothing goes wrong with it.

I am not playing the poor African card but the price of the camera and freight is about third of the yearly income in these parts.

Thats why I somtimes smile to myself when some on bitches about paying a whole $10 freight.

--
Collin
 
getting ill in the US!

We can order order from the US, and then after tax and duty the price difference between say B+H in New York and the best local price is typically in the range of 10 to 25%. As a tourist you are unlikely to see the best local price.
 
"[...]I also saw a lot of E-400 and E-500 kits, but all of them were well over 1,000 Euro [...]"

Aren't you exaggeratnig a bit? I mean you might, by chance, find the highest price in Europe but I doubt that. I got my E-500 kit for 685 $, which wasn't the lowest price (at least in Poland). Anyway I always stumble upon the fact that all electronic stuff is somewhat cheaper in US even by 30% (Canon 400D for instance). Why is that - I don't have the foggiest idea, taxes, vat? It's kinda obvious why gas prices are lower but why the electronics? It seems that all we can do is look at your prices with envious eyes.
 
"[...]I also saw a lot of E-400 and E-500 kits, but all of them were
well over 1,000 Euro [...]"

Aren't you exaggeratnig a bit?
If he is, it's just by a little bit. Spain does seem to have very high prices for cameras, especially on premium locations. I was in Barcelona several years ago. Croatia had quite steep prices then and Barcelona (top of the Ramblas) was even more expensive.
 
between Capitalism and Socialism. Don't be jealous though, we are gaining on Europe very rapidly. What most folks haven't figured out is that when socialism matures, it's YOU the average person who really pays through the nose...not the wealthy because THEY can afford it.
--
BJM
 
And if you buy from a vendor outside your home state, you frequently don't have to pay any sales tax at all.

PLUS, it is the custom in the US (perhaps even the law in some places, not sure) to display/advertise all prices WITHOUT sales tax added.

This is done on the theory that the government can't hide its tax bite in the normal fluctuation of prices. And if a consumer KNOWS just how much he is paying in taxes, he will be more tax aware than he would be otherwise making the government leaders very reluctant to raise taxes if they don't absolutely have to.

I like this policy! Regardless, I think these factor into at least some of the apparent price discrepancies.

--
STOP Global Stasis! Change is good!

Now that you've judged the quality of my typing, take a look at my photos. . .
http://www.photo.net/photos/GlenBarrington
 

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