Film is coming back...

This year I'm shooting 50/50 film and digital.

I recently did a powerpoint presentation for my dad's 75th birthday. I scanned hundreds of old photographs. I was able to do quick fixes to restore color. As I did so I got to thinking "what will most people using digital cameras have in 50 years?" Will they have any of the photos they took this year in a print or computer file format that is readable?

Most people do not know to backup their files until it is too late. Hard drive crashes, they throw out their old computer and forget to copy files, and the more likely even though they burned their digital pictures to a CD that CD is now unreadable because they didn't make a copy of it every few years. When burnable CDs came out the estimate was a 75 year life. Now that estimate is more like 5 years. People will have to continually backup digital pictures on discs, convert file formats to current ones, etc.

And the film user? All they have to do is keep their prints, and negatives if they want. They don't have to complain about "why are my pictures blue? why are my pictures so dark?" If they shot film and took it to a good photo lab (not walmart or a drug store) they would get great looking prints because the film would be corrected for exposure during developing, film that has more dynamic range than today's P&S cameras.

How much hassle will your digital pictures be over the next 50 years vs. film prints and negatives? :)

It seems there's always a company putting out a better way to fix up digital pictures. Whether it's at a print kiosk or in-camera, it's painfully obvious that P&S cameras do not take great looking pictures without something being done to them to print well. This is because the photo lab has been taken out of the loop.

Many people also think "why would I want to print my digital pictures?" I thought that way at first, then I learned better. Photography is about prints, not LCD screens. People spend $300 on a camera so that they DON'T have to make any prints - which is just wrong.

The build quality and lens quality of P&S cameras has really come down in the past couple of years as it gets more competitive. Now most lenses have a maximum appeture when at full zoom averaging 5.5 when just a couple of years ago they rarely hit 5.0. Quality rarely goes up when competition increases and prices come down.

The great thing about film is - you drop it off at your photo lab, and you pick up great looking prints and you don't have to labor over RAW files, monitor calibration, printing profiles! And for a low price you can get your film scanned at a high dpi too. For a far cheaper price than you scanning all 24 negatives and tweaking the colors and exposure to look good on your screen. Your photo lab has all their settings down.
 
Me too
About 5 years ago I stopped using my film cameras completely.

Last year i found that the early CDs that i backed up the pictures of my sons birth on are unreadable.
Same time I was given a load of family history on Kodachromes back to 1947
They looked like they were shot yesterday.



The image above is over 50 years old.
So I'm now shooting pictures of my kids on a mix of Kodachrome and B&W.
I have a blog about film also (see link below)

I shoot digital professionally, and for most clients speed is more important than longevity of media, but my kids will be able to access my film easily after my death (even if it's tomorrow) my computer and CD/DVD archive will be trashed..
--
http://www.photo-utopia.blogspot.com/
 
Kodachromes were about 50 years old, what I have, and I noticed a big difference in color quality when my dad switched to echkachrome. echktachrome colors have faded (but restore well) but kodachrome's have hardly faded.

I also had to clean most of the 100 or so kodachrome slides as they had dirt/dust buildup noticeable with your eye that the echktachrome's did not get even though they were all stored in the same fairly good sealed box. Any idea why they got the buildup and ektachrome did not?

That sucks that your CD's are unreadable now. And so many people on here use 2 or more external hard drives for backup instead of CD's when hard drives have a chance of failure plus they are limited in size capacity. What do you do in 10 years when you have 10 TB of digital files to manage? :)

I'm using a minolta dualscan 4 3200 dpi slide/negative scanner.
 
And the film user? All they have to do is keep their prints, and
negatives if they want. They don't have to complain about "why are
my pictures blue? why are my pictures so dark?" If they shot film
and took it to a good photo lab (not walmart or a drug store) they
would get great looking prints because the film would be corrected
for exposure during developing, film that has more dynamic range than
today's P&S cameras.
I think you have a false equality. I think it is more likely that the kind of person that dropped film off at the drugstore and then threw away the negatives after getting the prints is the kind of person that erases his/her flash card after having prints made. Without copying the images to their computer. The kind of person that had their film developed at a high quality lab and then carefully stored the negatives is also the kind of person that carefully backs up their digital images multiple times, while always keeping one copy off site.

Note that it is impossible to have multiple, identical, copies of film, no matter how fastidious you are. There is exactly one negative. Period. It is impossible to have as bullet proof storage for film as can be achieved with digital. Assuming best practices for both mediums. There is always a single point of failure for film.

It is meaningless to compare best film handling practices with poor digital data handling practices. And vice versa.

Wayne
 
It is impossible to have as bullet proof storage
for film as can be achieved with digital. Assuming best practices
for both mediums. There is always a single point of failure for film.
Not true, I have film media guaranteed for 1000 years



Stored on FICA this is supposed to have less than 1% degradation over 1000 years.
I wonder how long our redundant digital media policies will last?

If I died tomorrow would my computer have all the images saved? would my family know what was on those DVDs and HDs ?

On the other hand slides, prints etc are 'easy access' I can within seconds locate and scan the first picture I took in Feb 1977, my first digital shots backed up on media costing $10 a disc are gone...
Mark

--
http://www.photo-utopia.blogspot.com/
 
I agree with you to compare what is comparable but I never heard of anybody, I repete anybody, throwing negatives after printing.

They used to be piled into a box and the person opening it someday after many years will at least look at it then decide what to do, but they wont bother to dig into an unreadable HD/CD because of technology changes.

But my original point was, that at least here, people realise this fact. They have lost few years of souvenirs, they begin to switch back to film.

It is not that I have some preference for any of the media, but it was so predictable. I read somewhere in a magasine that museums are going back to film storage as well, they have some good reasons.

The digital future is for the cellphones and very professional gear, the death of P&S has already rang.
 
It is impossible to have as bullet proof storage
for film as can be achieved with digital. Assuming best practices
for both mediums. There is always a single point of failure for film.
Not true, I have film media guaranteed for 1000 years

Fire proof? Flood proof? Hurricane proof? Theft proof? This is what I was referring to.

The reason for my skepticism is that I've been using computers since 1980 and I have everything of importance that I've laid my hands on. For me and for my family. Duplicated multiple time, in multiple locations. Cheaply, using standard off-the-shelf media. (I suspect that your media doesn't qualify on either count.) I take pains to migrate and translate as circumstances warrant. It isn't rocket science if you pay attention.

Wayne
 
While almost all you wrote is truth, I don't think film will make some big comaback.

IMHO, when I compare my photos from film and digital SLR, those from digital are better.

Film can't beat: possibility recheck photo on the spot, make easily copies, posting on the web, cropping, retouching, all SO EASY.

If people don't make backup copies, that's their problem. If there is fire, you will

also lose all negatives. But with digital, the I have 2 copies on different hard drives, and then one DVD copy here in Japan and one send to Czech.

And when CMOS/CCD makers invent e.g. 10000 ISO sensor without noise, than sayonara film/

Film will be still here, but no comeback....sorry.
--
Pictures from Japan: http://www.pbase.com/tomas_cermak
http://gallery.yamasa.org/view_album.php?set_albumName=tomas

 
Then we started to chat.... and he confirmed our long past
conversation we had when digital arise. I was telling him at that
time that people will have no "souvenir" with digital and it exactly
what is happening.
No "souvenir" with digital? What non-sense. The proliferation of a single digital image, through uploads to on-line print services, to emails, to hard drives, not to mention prints from digital, make multiple "souvenirs" from digital.
He has more and more customers who lose all their pictures due to
hard disk and computer failures because "average Joe" do not make CD
nor copy of any sort,
That's non-sense. Hard drive failures are actually pretty rare. And recovery of failed hard drives is pretty successful when it does happen.
it is too much restricting,
Too restricting? It's actually very easy and non-restrictive.
they may do it once
or twice but quit very fast.
Yeah, and these lazy people aren't going to take any better care of their negatives.
I am living at a place where people come to spend their hollidays and
he see a lot of them coming to him for card salvage,
Card salvage is actually very easy. And cheap.
camera
disfunctions who lose all their trip pictures and end up buying "shot
& throw" film cameras.
I'd say that's pretty rare.
As for DSRL owners it is even worst. Many tried to clean their sensor
themselves and the camera go straight to the services department with
a such a bill at the end they wonder what to do or they throw the
towel.
Again, I also think that's very rare. Cleaning a sensor is not nearly as difficult or as dangerous as you make it out to be. Obviously, you have no experience with it.
As for me, I have no digital camera yet and plan to get a tiny P&S to
stick into my pocket just for the fun of it and immediate not
important pictures to post over the internet. I never trusted
electronics and never will, so I cannot concieve spending a lot of
money into such gear. I will carry on film for what I consider of
value.
I think that's the problem with your bias. You "never trusted electyronics and never will", which is just an absurd statement. Film has it's own weaknesses, and yet you trust it?
 
You are probably right for your part of the world and it is
interesting to see the differences. Here I can tell you I didn't hear
much of people ordering CD when they discharge their cards.
When you "discharge" a card at a digital kiosk, that does not mean that the images are being deleted from the card. The original images still stay on the card. And many people do download images to their computers are home before erasing the card. And even after you erase the card, the images are still accessible until you overwrite them! So there are plenty of chances for people to access their images and copy them. Furthermore, many people use on-line print services like Costco, where a copy of the image is kept on their server. I have images from a year ago that I uploaded to Costco's print service that are still sitting there that any of my friends can order for printing. It's like a back-up file of my images at Costco. I didn't have that same back-up with my film negatives.
 
I agree with you to compare what is comparable but I never heard of
anybody, I repete anybody, throwing negatives after printing.
They used to be piled into a box and the person opening it someday
after many years will at least look at it then decide what to do, but
they wont bother to dig into an unreadable HD/CD because of
technology changes.
Oh, yeah? How do you know that?
But my original point was, that at least here, people realise this
fact. They have lost few years of souvenirs, they begin to switch
back to film.
Complete non-sense. In a matter of minutes, you can have multiple exact copies of a digital image that can be sent around the world and kept in multiple places for safe keeping. Try that with film!
It is not that I have some preference for any of the media, but it
was so predictable. I read somewhere in a magasine that museums are
going back to film storage as well, they have some good reasons.
On the contrary, many archival services are transfering their film and analog images to digital!
The digital future is for the cellphones and very professional gear,
the death of P&S has already rang.
The death of digital P&S? Yeah right! Most stores don't even carry film P&S cameras any more. Many manufacturers don't even offer film cameras of any sort any more.
 
Never heard of people throwing negatives, that's another joke !
It's not a joke. How many people have a lightbox and loupe to even look at their negatives? And what they see are odd looking reverse images that they probably can't even recognize. Or they are all scratched up, faded, or deteriorated because they've been improperly stored. At least with digital images, you can actually see a digital file in all its glory and detail on your computer, so it's more likely that people will keep them, email copies of them to friends, etc. With digital files, it's so much easier to organize them, catalog them, replicate them, send them, retrieve them, view them, etc. With film, it's a pain in the butt.
 
I agree, people who want medium to low quality "snapshots" of something, don't care whether it's from a disposable film camera, a cheap P&S digital, or a cell phone. one aunt (who is otherwise quite smart) shoots everything at 640x480 because it looks fine onscreen and she can fit so much more on her memory card. (She established this habit when cards were much more expensive). I don't know if she keeps them afterward - I think someday she'll be surprised to find they're all stored in her Email "sent items". As for discarding negatives, it wouldn't surprise me. Some people are packrats, like me. The other day I was eyeballing negatives from the early 70's; some probably throw out ANY stuff they haven't touched in a year.

On the other hand, I have been keeping just about everything I shot since the 2000 Macy's Parade and my first digital camera. My biggest beef is finding a scanner for large-format film, since I still own a 120 twin-lens. (Haven't used it for 5 years!). I wish I could "get around to" scanning all the negatives.

I have my files all organized by year and then topic. (i.e. "2006", then, say, "House Repairs" or "NYC Trip". For big collections, I'll break down the trip by day, etc.) Exif keeps the more precise details -exact date and time. I am not too religious about backups, but I have them now on DVD and for each new computer I tend to copy the contents of the old, for example into "Old Disk C". Using this strategy at work, I have some memos and letters going back to 1991. (There's the other digital dilemma - some of them are not very readable because the programs don't exist. I can see the text between globs of unreadable code bytes.)

Just last month, someone asked about reading 5-1/4 floppies (sorry, no can do). Such services are in fact available, depending on how much you want to pay. several years ago, my in-laws as a birthday gift converted 8mm from 1950 into a DVD for me. I sent a copy to my dad, DVD copies are cheap and easy, who then got to see film of his father. I never asked what it cost to convert.

So, important stuff will be kept and migrated to up-to-date digital media; which, I suspect, will be more permanent and more reliable as time goes on. (CD and DVD are 100 times more reliable than those &%^ floppies! Flash drive, more so. just not sure how permanet flash is, since IIRC it relies on stored charge!) The back-of-drawer found stuff is less reliable today than with old media like kodachrome or B&W film; so you have a point there. however, with my example of 8mm - there is still an issue of equipment to use it.

As far as convenience - with digital, you can view imediately and retake, something film wouldn't do. It's a short leap from there to snap-happy; as I point out to people, digits are free. My first digital camera (Fuji 4900z) would hold 77 pics and almost a day's battery power, so that was about a day's shots. Newer ones (like the A80) can hold hundreds of pics and the batteries last days; I find a day's quota from vacation creeping up toward 200.

For processors the elimination of film is far more beneficial. A digital image works the same regardless of source; one piece of equipment works for all cameras. I suspect more future processing will be a form of printing rather than photo-chemical processing. So the equipment and the management of it becomes simpler, cleaner, cheaper - more hassle-free. (Costco here recently posted a sign announcing no more APS processing). Heck, the customers do all the selection work and feed it into the computer for you now.

I agree with you the P&S market seems to be going backward. Despite the IS I don't see my Canon 710IS giving the same pic quality as the A80. I also suspect the missing features (sharpness and the flip screen on the 710, the IS on the A640) are intended to serve a marketing plan more than anything, to the detriment of consumers.)
 
IMHO, when I compare my photos from film and digital SLR, those from
digital are better.
Film can't beat: possibility recheck photo on the spot, make easily
copies, posting on the web, cropping, retouching, all SO EASY.
I agree - there's another point. When I switched from a P&S 35mm camera to a 2.4Mp Fuji 4900 - I found the picture quality such that I described a 4x6 as "painfully sharp". I wasn't used to the kind of detail I was seeing. I have another image on my wall that's 8x10 and still professionally sharp; and one that's 11x14 and still pretty darned good.

Imagine what a GOOD 10Mp could do.
 
I agree with you to compare what is comparable but I never heard of
anybody, I repete anybody, throwing negatives after printing.
They used to be piled into a box and the person opening it someday
after many years will at least look at it then decide what to do, but
they wont bother to dig into an unreadable HD/CD because of
technology changes.
Oh, yeah? How do you know that?
There is a prevailent myth among tech-illiterates that file formats by some mysterios force go unreadable after a number of years.
But my original point was, that at least here, people realise this
fact. They have lost few years of souvenirs, they begin to switch
back to film.
Complete non-sense. In a matter of minutes, you can have multiple
exact copies of a digital image that can be sent around the world and
kept in multiple places for safe keeping. Try that with film!
Agree completely. The main problem is that too many people insist on treating digital photos the same way as they treat (handle, store) traditional negatives/slides/copies. Many fail to see the digital advantage and use it to their benefit -- like making copies and store them in several locations.

Handled properly and with a bare minimum of knowledge, digital photos are much easier to store safely and are much easier to locate then traditional photos (where do I enter keywords in that shoebox filled with negatives?)
It is not that I have some preference for any of the media,
Oh no, you come acress as perfectly unbiased ... :-)
but it
was so predictable. I read somewhere in a magasine that museums are
going back to film storage as well, they have some good reasons.
On the contrary, many archival services are transfering their film
and analog images to digital!
That is my observation too, libraries are converting huge amounts of photos, old books, newspapers, magazines, documents and assorerted media information into digital formats.
The digital future is for the cellphones and very professional gear,
the death of P&S has already rang.
The death of digital P&S? Yeah right! Most stores don't even carry
film P&S cameras any more. Many manufacturers don't even offer film
cameras of any sort any more.
It might be that the simplest type of P&S will be absorbed into multipurpose devices like the phone/camera/watch/gameboy/walkman-thingies we use today.

But optics cannot be downscaled in size as graciously as electronics can and therefore we will for the forseeable future also have actual cameras, even P&S cameras, since they offer higher optical qualty then the multipurpose devices mentioned above.
 
for film as can be achieved with digital. Assuming best practices
for both mediums. There is always a single point of failure for film.
Not true, I have film media guaranteed for 1000 years
Stored on FICA this is supposed to have less than 1% degradation over
1000 years.
Actually, you should also wonder how long your 1,000 year film will last. I seem to recall a chancellor who had a 1,000 year Reich. And what are you gong to do if it doesn't live up the guarantee? Sue the company?

--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com
 
IMHO, when I compare my photos from film and digital SLR, those from
digital are better.
Film can't beat: possibility recheck photo on the spot, make easily
copies, posting on the web, cropping, retouching, all SO EASY.
I agree - there's another point. When I switched from a P&S 35mm
camera to a 2.4Mp Fuji 4900 - I found the picture quality such that I
described a 4x6 as "painfully sharp". I wasn't used to the kind of
detail I was seeing. I have another image on my wall that's 8x10 and
still professionally sharp; and one that's 11x14 and still pretty
darned good.

Imagine what a GOOD 10Mp could do.
How about a good 6 MP? I routinely pull super sharp 11x14s from my Pentax *istD. I often get 13x19 prints that are almost as sharp, and I've gotten a goodly number of sharp 16x20s, and a few 20x30 poster size prints.

And I can afford to practice as much as I want, something that was NOT possible with film, so I continue to improve my techniques, which improves my general photography.

Film? No thanks.

--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com
 

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