Foveon + Kodak = best of both worlds?

and cartoons with a grain of salt.... The layers are not perfect in that they do not exclusively one color but are "contaminated" by modest amounts of the other colors. In the sense that the layers are filters, they are not all that narrow band. Most of the challenge of the Foveon sensors is getting good separation of the colors with adequate accuracy.
--
Leon
http://homepage.mac.com/leonwittwer/landscapes.htm
 
. . .by what standard?

I mean it will either cost more and alienate users who could get a 5Dor 1Ds MkII or they will take a hit on profit.

Sure like I said, there are probably some real die hard Nikonians who would buy any camera with "N" on it, and would lust at the opportunity. At the very least some landscape people would jump atthe chance to use the Nikon 17-35mm f/2.8 simply because it si a little better than the Canon equiv. But really how many? What can Nikon really offer there that would compel someone to either pay more or accept less performance for the hefty investment 35mm piece of silicon represents?

I mean Nikon would have to come into the market with TWO cameras . . . .one that is as good or better than the 1Ds MkII(I) and one that is as good or cheaper than the 5D (mkII).

And dude as it stands there aren't that many folks buying Canon FF cameras.

The only way to expand that market is for it to get substantially less expensive (which probably will not happen) not to throw another uber camera into the mix . . . and one that doesn't perform as well as the current uber camera.

I mean if LOTS of people were going to buy an f-mount 35mm DSLR regardless of price performance differential, why didn't lots of people buy the Kodak 135 format F-mount DSLR? Heck they didn't even buy the Kodak EF mount DSLR.

The very small market up there went right to the best performer . . the 1D series . . .and next right to the cheapest option . . .the 5D.

Face it, for that market Canon has it all over anyone who even dips a toe into that shallowest of pools.

--
--
Comments are always welcome.

Zach Bellino

'Nothing, like something, happens anywhere.”
-- from 'I Remember, I Remember'
Philip Larkin (1922-1985)
 
and cartoons with a grain of salt.... The layers are not perfect
in that they do not exclusively one color but are "contaminated" by
modest amounts of the other colors. In the sense that the layers
are filters, they are not all that narrow band. Most of the
challenge of the Foveon sensors is getting good separation of the
colors with adequate accuracy.
It is very frustrating to me that many of these issues we discuss here could simply be put to the test if someone provided the correct RAW file to examine, like a white point-light-source against a black background, with a diffraction grating over the lens. Getting relevant RAW files is like getting blood from stones (and I am guilty too, someone is still waiting for files from me). They are really what is needed, to see what is going on in the cameras. There are a few web sites that have RAW samples from many cameras, and even they are very difficult to get any really measurable info from; you need black frames, clipped frames, and out-of focus flat patches to really measure the RAW quality of cameras (in addition to detailed scenes). Most such images, however, don't have any areas in them convenient to accurately measure anything; clipped areas are tiny and only in specular highlights, there are usually no black areas without detail, and everything is in focus.

--
John

 
Canon, Fuji, and Sony makes their own sensors.

Nikon and Pentax (and Samsung by default) seem happy with Sony
sensors as well; they are expected to put out a 1.1 crop D3 soon...
using a Sony sensor.
I'd have to see it with my own eyes. I'm not saying that it won't
happen (so okay, I am), but Nikon:
-- doesn't have an installed professional full frame base;
-- has millions of photographers with significant investment into DX;
-- discontinued the important professional lenses in full frame
(17-35/2.8, 28-70/2.8),
Your source for the discontinuing of these lenses?
and didn't do any development of these in
the meantime.
How do you know what Nikon is or is not developing? I'd bet my connections are a lot better than yours, and all I have is vague hints.
If Nikon ever decided to switch over to full frame, they would
anger about 40 photographers I know personally, as well as
thousands more which I have seen with pro DX glass.

Reasons?
1. If Nikon introduced a pro full frame DSLR, the prices for pro DX
lenses would plummet. New lenses committed to retail channels would
become unprofitable, used lenses would sell for less than half
their actual value.
Oh sure. A few thousand pro full frame DSLRs is going to affect the prices of DX lenses with over 4 million DX cameras in the field.

Here's a hint: Canon's 17-55mm EF-S sells for almost the same price as Nikon's DX, and Canon has two full frame cameras and a 1.3x crop camera in their lineup that can't use it.
This would anger retailers who would be unwilling to carry Nikon if
they didn't recoup their losses, as well as pros who would have
similar costs when jumping ship to Canon as staying with Nikon and
moving to full frame.
It won't anger retailers, because your assumptions are totally faulty.
2. They would have to provide new lenses -- quickly.
Yup, that's why so many Nikon users are crying for full frame, because the existing full frame Nikon glass is all so bad it needs to be replaced.
) You want a comprehensive list?
Sure. Do you know someone who can come up with one?
d. vastly underpowered flashes.

Come on, what happened over at Nikon? SB-800 and SB-600 are a
laughing stock of the market, with 800 being less powerful than
Canon's 430EX or Sony's HVL-F36! Plus, the top tier flashes from
other manufacturers (580EX and HVL-F56) are not only twice as
powerful,
You are either trolling or smoking. I'm betting on trolling.

Compare the 50mm guide numbers (Canon and Sony have 50mm guide numbers on the B&H site, and I have an SB-800 manual.

SB-800 144' (44m) at 50mm
580EX II 138' (42 m) at 50mm
HVL-F56 144' (44m) at 50mm

Looks like one of your "top tier" flash is less powerful than the Nikon, and the other is exactly the same.
but also have larger capacitors and are able to shoot
with flash many more times without having to wait for recycle in
typical situations (fill-flash).
About as accurate as all your other made up information.
Any questions?
Sure. Once again, are you trolling, or just almost unimaginably misinformed?

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
The reason for saying this was not to attack Foveon, but to explain that the original question is pointless, because the top layer of the Foveon chip is already similar to the 'luminosity pixels' in the Kodak design. Both detect all wavelengths.

--
Johan
http://www.johanfoto.com
 
I was thinking the same! Only thing is, the two are going into completely different directions. You would end up with a sensor less acute than a Foveon and less sensitive than what Kodak promises for their new design. Basically you could get the same from a bayer sensor, so there would not be a huge benefit.

Might be better to develop each concept on its own, not make compromises, and use each sensor for what it excels at.

O.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ollivr/
http://www.flickrleech.net/user/ollivr
 
The reason for saying this was not to attack Foveon, but to explain
that the original question is pointless, because the top layer of
the Foveon chip is already similar to the 'luminosity pixels' in
the Kodak design. Both detect all wavelengths.
I think it has a slight bias towards blue, IIUC.

But how sensitive is it, in an absolute sense? The top layer is problemic, actually. The blue and green layers have blotches of complementation. IOW, they each have light blotches where the other has dark blotches. Add the two channels in the right proportion, and the blotches disappear, and you have a very clean cyan channel. How sensitive or insensitive it is to red, I would need a rainbow against a black background to tell. The red channel is actually rather low in noise by itself, too.

Whether you take all three layers added together, or just the top two or just the red, you have a fairly sensitive "luminance" reading at every photosite. To get more sensitive photosites for very low light, you might need a differently-doped silicon, or some other variation in chip design just for the extra sensitivity. I wonder how much good that would do, however, given the difficulty with green/blue already. I think that you'd want better color separation before you want to start losing color resolution. While CFAs off lower color resolution, they offer better color separation.

--
John

 
I'd have to see it with my own eyes. I'm not saying that it won't
happen (so okay, I am), but Nikon:
-- doesn't have an installed professional full frame base;
-- has millions of photographers with significant investment into DX;
-- discontinued the important professional lenses in full frame
(17-35/2.8, 28-70/2.8),
Your source for the discontinuing of these lenses?
The fact that you have to wait for two months to get Nikon in Poland to get them from Japan?
If Nikon ever decided to switch over to full frame, they would
anger about 40 photographers I know personally, as well as
thousands more which I have seen with pro DX glass.

Reasons?
1. If Nikon introduced a pro full frame DSLR, the prices for pro DX
lenses would plummet. New lenses committed to retail channels would
become unprofitable, used lenses would sell for less than half
their actual value.
Oh sure. A few thousand pro full frame DSLRs is going to affect the
prices of DX lenses with over 4 million DX cameras in the field.
Everybody is assuming that the full frame Nikon would replace the DX professional Nikons.
2. They would have to provide new lenses -- quickly.
Yup, that's why so many Nikon users are crying for full frame,
because the existing full frame Nikon glass is all so bad it needs
to be replaced.
) You want a comprehensive list?
Sure. Do you know someone who can come up with one?
Oh, so you don't think that a f/2.8 zoom starting at 24 mm is in order?
d. vastly underpowered flashes.

Come on, what happened over at Nikon? SB-800 and SB-600 are a
laughing stock of the market, with 800 being less powerful than
Canon's 430EX or Sony's HVL-F36! Plus, the top tier flashes from
other manufacturers (580EX and HVL-F56) are not only twice as
powerful,
You are either trolling or smoking. I'm betting on trolling.

Compare the 50mm guide numbers (Canon and Sony have 50mm guide
numbers on the B&H site, and I have an SB-800 manual.

SB-800 144' (44m) at 50mm
580EX II 138' (42 m) at 50mm
HVL-F56 144' (44m) at 50mm

Looks like one of your "top tier" flash is less powerful than the
Nikon, and the other is exactly the same.
Ooops, my bad. I was basing it on materials released by Nikon in Poland (I've notified them) and what a Nikon-shooting friend told me. There was an error that stated that SB-800 had 56 m GN at 105 mm, but at ISO 200. That would mean a GN of about 40 m at 105 mm, so much less than Canon and Sony.
I checked the info over at Nikon's site, and you are completely right.
but also have larger capacitors and are able to shoot
with flash many more times without having to wait for recycle in
typical situations (fill-flash).
About as accurate as all your other made up information.
Ummm. Maybe made up. But I made it up from my own tests. I've used Nikon D80, Canon 30D and Sony A100 with the top flashes on fresh sets of Nickel-Hydride and checked how many flashes I can get with 50/1.4 lenses pointed in the same direction, and stopped down to f/5.6. At 3 fps, even with Canon's head start (with 6% less frame coverage), it was an obvious winner, being able to do about twenty flashes on the 580EX, Sony did about 17, and Nikon only 11 before the 12th shot was without flash (though with the 13th, there was a flash).
Any questions?
Sure. Once again, are you trolling, or just almost unimaginably
misinformed?
In some areas, I guess I was misinformed, so thanks for clarifying. But in other... Well, I wasn't trolling, that wasn't my point.

But, just out of curiosity, would you buy yourself a full frame Nikon?
 
I'd have to see it with my own eyes. I'm not saying that it won't
happen (so okay, I am), but Nikon:
-- doesn't have an installed professional full frame base;
-- has millions of photographers with significant investment into DX;
-- discontinued the important professional lenses in full frame
(17-35/2.8, 28-70/2.8),
Your source for the discontinuing of these lenses?
The fact that you have to wait for two months to get Nikon in
Poland to get them from Japan?
All that proves is that Nikon has a horrible distributor in Poland. I can get either of those lenses, off the shelf, in Detroit.

You can't get Ricoh cameras at all in the US (and nothing personal, but the US is slightly more important in the world economy than Poland), but that does not prove that Ricoh is discontinuing all their cameras.
Oh sure. A few thousand pro full frame DSLRs is going to affect the
prices of DX lenses with over 4 million DX cameras in the field.
Everybody is assuming that the full frame Nikon would replace the
DX professional Nikons.
I am part of "everybody", and I make no such assumption.

Canon didn't "replace" anything when they added two full frame cameras to their lineup. Have you tried a 1D III? It does the job of both a D2X and a D2H. At 10mp, it's faster than the 4mp D2H, and the prints look as good as those from my 12mp D2X. (and yes, I own a DX2, and have spend a week with 1D III, shot and printed the same subjects from both, and I give the edge to 1D III. And that's despite having a lot more experience squeezing all the goods from D2X files).
2. They would have to provide new lenses -- quickly.
Yup, that's why so many Nikon users are crying for full frame,
because the existing full frame Nikon glass is all so bad it needs
to be replaced.
) You want a comprehensive list?
Sure. Do you know someone who can come up with one?
Oh, so you don't think that a f/2.8 zoom starting at 24 mm is in
order?
Not at all. Canon has proved that such a 3:1 "normal" lens cannot be built consistently with current production technology.

http://www.photozone.de/8Reviews/lenses/canon_2470_28/index.htm

"t took me 4 (f-o-u-r) samples of the lens to get a good one - please note: "good", not a "great" sample. The first three variants showed rather hefty centering defects which spoiled the results quite a bit."

"The Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8 USM L proved to be a worthy representative of the pro grade lens league ... if you can get a good sample. During the last two years four lenses has seen the lab with only one within specs - this is disappointing especially for a lens of this price class. If you´re lucky enough to get a decent sample you can expect a very high performance level, especially when stopped down a bit."

I'll take a 2.5:1 that works well, thank you.
Compare the 50mm guide numbers (Canon and Sony have 50mm guide
numbers on the B&H site, and I have an SB-800 manual.

SB-800 144' (44m) at 50mm
580EX II 138' (42 m) at 50mm
HVL-F56 144' (44m) at 50mm

Looks like one of your "top tier" flash is less powerful than the
Nikon, and the other is exactly the same.
Ooops, my bad. I was basing it on materials released by Nikon in
Poland (I've notified them) and what a Nikon-shooting friend told
me. There was an error that stated that SB-800 had 56 m GN at 105
mm, but at ISO 200. That would mean a GN of about 40 m at 105 mm,
so much less than Canon and Sony.
I checked the info over at Nikon's site, and you are completely right.
Hey, it happens. I'm beginning to think that all your complaints stem from Nikon Poland: product availability, specifications, etc.
but also have larger capacitors and are able to shoot
with flash many more times without having to wait for recycle in
typical situations (fill-flash).
About as accurate as all your other made up information.
Ummm. Maybe made up. But I made it up from my own tests. I've used
Nikon D80, Canon 30D and Sony A100 with the top flashes on fresh
sets of Nickel-Hydride and checked how many flashes I can get with
50/1.4 lenses pointed in the same direction, and stopped down to
f/5.6. At 3 fps, even with Canon's head start (with 6% less frame
coverage), it was an obvious winner, being able to do about twenty
flashes on the 580EX, Sony did about 17, and Nikon only 11 before
the 12th shot was without flash (though with the 13th, there was a
flash).
How accurate was the exposure? Were all three flashes pumping the same amount of light on each firing?
Any questions?
Sure. Once again, are you trolling, or just almost unimaginably
misinformed?
In some areas, I guess I was misinformed, so thanks for clarifying.
But in other... Well, I wasn't trolling, that wasn't my point.

But, just out of curiosity, would you buy yourself a full frame Nikon?
Yes. (I did, once, a Kodak SLR/n, but boy, if there ever was such thing as Frankenstein's camera, that was it).

But that's mostly because I do a lot of portrait and architecture. My rather pricey 135mm f2.0 is difficult to use on a D2X at 202mm equivalent.It makes for a rather tight face shot in my studio. I use an 85mm f1.4 where I used to use a 135, but there's no reasonable equivalent to a 105 or an 85. My very nice 28mm shift lens is now a near useless 42mm equivalent.

Either Nikon needs to revive the remarkable 58mm f1.2 NOCT aspheric in a modern AF mount, or I need a Nikon full frame.

--
Normally, a signature this small can't open its own jumpgate.

Ciao! Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com
 
I'd have to see it with my own eyes. I'm not saying that it won't
happen (so okay, I am), but Nikon:
-- doesn't have an installed professional full frame base;
-- has millions of photographers with significant investment into DX;
-- discontinued the important professional lenses in full frame
(17-35/2.8, 28-70/2.8),
Your source for the discontinuing of these lenses?
The fact that you have to wait for two months to get Nikon in
Poland to get them from Japan?
All that proves is that Nikon has a horrible distributor in Poland.
I can get either of those lenses, off the shelf, in Detroit.
OK, I'm inclined to agree.
Canon didn't "replace" anything when they added two full frame
cameras to their lineup. Have you tried a 1D III? It does the job
of both a D2X and a D2H. At 10mp, it's faster than the 4mp D2H, and
the prints look as good as those from my 12mp D2X. (and yes, I own
a DX2, and have spend a week with 1D III, shot and printed the same
subjects from both, and I give the edge to 1D III. And that's
despite having a lot more experience squeezing all the goods from
D2X files).
Yes, I did (on a Canon roadshow). It's an amazing camera (would be a be all-end all camera for almost everything for me, if I could afford it right now).
2. They would have to provide new lenses -- quickly.
Yup, that's why so many Nikon users are crying for full frame,
because the existing full frame Nikon glass is all so bad it needs
to be replaced.
) You want a comprehensive list?
Sure. Do you know someone who can come up with one?
Oh, so you don't think that a f/2.8 zoom starting at 24 mm is in
order?
Not at all. Canon has proved that such a 3:1 "normal" lens cannot
be built consistently with current production technology.

http://www.photozone.de/8Reviews/lenses/canon_2470_28/index.htm

"t took me 4 (f-o-u-r) samples of the lens to get a good one -
please note: "good", not a "great" sample. The first three variants
showed rather hefty centering defects which spoiled the results
quite a bit."

"The Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8 USM L proved to be a worthy
representative of the pro grade lens league ... if you can get a
good sample. During the last two years four lenses has seen the lab
with only one within specs - this is disappointing especially for a
lens of this price class. If you´re lucky enough to get a decent
sample you can expect a very high performance level, especially
when stopped down a bit."

I'll take a 2.5:1 that works well, thank you.
Hmmm, Nikon make 3.2:1 (17-55) that works "rather" well. Canon make a very similar lens (though not L-grade) which performs very nicely as well.
Ummm. Maybe made up. But I made it up from my own tests. I've used
Nikon D80, Canon 30D and Sony A100 with the top flashes on fresh
sets of Nickel-Hydride and checked how many flashes I can get with
50/1.4 lenses pointed in the same direction, and stopped down to
f/5.6. At 3 fps, even with Canon's head start (with 6% less frame
coverage), it was an obvious winner, being able to do about twenty
flashes on the 580EX, Sony did about 17, and Nikon only 11 before
the 12th shot was without flash (though with the 13th, there was a
flash).
How accurate was the exposure? Were all three flashes pumping the
same amount of light on each firing?
It's hard to tell, as I didn't use a flash meter on these shots. But all the shots looked correctly exposed, histograms were similar from all cameras, noise levels were pretty much representative of their respective cameras.
 
--that a 'full frame' (not really) Canon can do all the jobs of the pro DX Nikon bodies? If Nikon had something like the 1DIII in their lineup all their pro DX bodies would indeed be obsoleted.

Look at Canon--what's the highest level EF-S body they have? The 30D would hardly measure up to a D80 to me if it didn't have 5fps.

The fact that they can have EF-S lenses selling at the same price as DX lenses shows that lens prices can hold up despite the pro EF-S bodies being replaced by FF ones.
Oh sure. A few thousand pro full frame DSLRs is going to affect the
prices of DX lenses with over 4 million DX cameras in the field.
Everybody is assuming that the full frame Nikon would replace the
DX professional Nikons.
I am part of "everybody", and I make no such assumption.

Canon didn't "replace" anything when they added two full frame
cameras to their lineup. Have you tried a 1D III? It does the job
of both a D2X and a D2H. At 10mp, it's faster than the 4mp D2H, and
the prints look as good as those from my 12mp D2X. (and yes, I own
a DX2, and have spend a week with 1D III, shot and printed the same
subjects from both, and I give the edge to 1D III. And that's
despite having a lot more experience squeezing all the goods from
D2X files).
 
Hmmm, Nikon make 3.2:1 (17-55) that works "rather" well. Canon make
a very similar lens (though not L-grade) which performs very nicely
as well.
All on DX/EF-S crop, in case you haven't noticed... once upon a time Panasonic made this really nice 12x zoom lens, constant f2.8, sharp corner to corner wide open... ;) ;) ;)
Ummm. Maybe made up. But I made it up from my own tests. I've used
Nikon D80, Canon 30D and Sony A100 with the top flashes on fresh
sets of Nickel-Hydride and checked how many flashes I can get with
50/1.4 lenses pointed in the same direction, and stopped down to
f/5.6. At 3 fps, even with Canon's head start (with 6% less frame
coverage), it was an obvious winner, being able to do about twenty
flashes on the 580EX, Sony did about 17, and Nikon only 11 before
the 12th shot was without flash (though with the 13th, there was a
flash).
How accurate was the exposure? Were all three flashes pumping the
same amount of light on each firing?
It's hard to tell, as I didn't use a flash meter on these shots.
But all the shots looked correctly exposed, histograms were similar
from all cameras, noise levels were pretty much representative of
their respective cameras.
No need to meter--couldn't you have set flash power manually? Then you could measure how many continuous shots each flash can manage at 1/1, 1/2, 1/4... you don't need to even bother getting the right exposure.

On the other hand, Canon and Sony rate their ISOs differently from Nikon, so if you set all 3 at ISO100, Canon and Sony would actually be shooting at ISO125, which would put Nikon at a disadvantage.

On the gripping hand ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gripping_hand ), are you telling me that you got 20 shots at 5fps on the Canon but 11 shots at 3fps on the Nikon (and the Sony)? That would really be something.
 
Hmmm, Nikon make 3.2:1 (17-55) that works "rather" well. Canon make
a very similar lens (though not L-grade) which performs very nicely
as well.
All on DX/EF-S crop, in case you haven't noticed... once upon a
time Panasonic made this really nice 12x zoom lens, constant f2.8,
sharp corner to corner wide open... ;) ;) ;)
Oh, of course I did notice. And Hasselblad brand has a 2.(somethingverysmall)x (50-110) zoom, which although sharp, has non-constant aperture.
It's hard to tell, as I didn't use a flash meter on these shots.
But all the shots looked correctly exposed, histograms were similar
from all cameras, noise levels were pretty much representative of
their respective cameras.
No need to meter--couldn't you have set flash power manually? Then
you could measure how many continuous shots each flash can manage
at 1/1, 1/2, 1/4... you don't need to even bother getting the right
exposure.

On the other hand, Canon and Sony rate their ISOs differently from
Nikon, so if you set all 3 at ISO100, Canon and Sony would
actually be shooting at ISO125, which would put Nikon at a
disadvantage.
Ah, no, not really. Even though they do have 'higher sensitivity' sensors in their basic settings than Nikon, the meters still work the same. That is, even though you get the same exposure if you underexpose Sony or Canon by 1/3 of a stop, the meter (in spot mode, which is what I used, and why I used 30D instead of 400D) should show the same settings.
On the gripping hand ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gripping_hand ),
are you telling me that you got 20 shots at 5fps on the Canon but
11 shots at 3fps on the Nikon (and the Sony)? That would really
be something.
Nope, I set the Canon to 3 fps. Although the 580EX II works just as nicely at 10 fps on the EOS 1D3.

I'll try repeating the test today if I find the time.
 
--that a 'full frame' (not really) Canon can do all the jobs of the
pro DX Nikon bodies? If Nikon had something like the 1DIII in their
lineup all their pro DX bodies would indeed be obsoleted.

Look at Canon--what's the highest level EF-S body they have? The
30D would hardly measure up to a D80 to me if it didn't have 5fps.
Never even mind the D200, or single-digit Nikons.

I think it's fairly obvious that once a full frame Nikon arrives, all pro grade DX Nikons would be deprecated. It's possible that they'd feature a 'DX' mode to mount the (then) legacy DX lenses, but the inconveniences of using a full frame viewfinder with reduced frame lenses wouldn't really cut it, I think.

The D200 class would remain, but for how long? And without D200, there's no real point in having professional DX lenses.
The fact that they can have EF-S lenses selling at the same price
as DX lenses shows that lens prices can hold up despite the pro
EF-S bodies being replaced by FF ones.
Yes, but the difference between 30D and 5D is quite glaring. I'd choose the 30D + 17-55/2.8 over 5D + 28-90/3.5-5.6 any time, and I'd get it cheaper. Heck, the Nikon D200+DX 17-55/2.8 is cheaper than 5D, and arguably, a lot better. The 'killer combo' (5D+24-105/4) is quite attractive, but still a lot more expensive than the 30D or D200 kit. It does feature IS and L grade build, though, but so does the Nikon.

Anyway, what I mean to say is that if Nikon introduces a pro grade full frame body, it's a death toll to professional DX lenses. The 17-55 would probably get re-released without the weather sealings, in a plastic body, but with VR, for the same price, if we were to observe what Canon is doing (pro grade prices, pro grade specifications, amateur grade build quality).
 
Hmmm, Nikon make 3.2:1 (17-55) that works "rather" well. Canon make
a very similar lens (though not L-grade) which performs very nicely
as well.
All on DX/EF-S crop, in case you haven't noticed... once upon a
time Panasonic made this really nice 12x zoom lens, constant f2.8,
sharp corner to corner wide open... ;) ;) ;)
Oh, of course I did notice. And Hasselblad brand has a
2.(somethingverysmall)x (50-110) zoom, which although sharp, has
non-constant aperture.
So you see, a 24-70 FF lens may still pose a serious challenge.
It's hard to tell, as I didn't use a flash meter on these shots.
But all the shots looked correctly exposed, histograms were similar
from all cameras, noise levels were pretty much representative of
their respective cameras.
No need to meter--couldn't you have set flash power manually? Then
you could measure how many continuous shots each flash can manage
at 1/1, 1/2, 1/4... you don't need to even bother getting the right
exposure.

On the other hand, Canon and Sony rate their ISOs differently from
Nikon, so if you set all 3 at ISO100, Canon and Sony would
actually be shooting at ISO125, which would put Nikon at a
disadvantage.
Ah, no, not really. Even though they do have 'higher sensitivity'
sensors in their basic settings than Nikon, the meters still work
the same. That is, even though you get the same exposure if you
underexpose Sony or Canon by 1/3 of a stop, the meter (in spot
mode, which is what I used, and why I used 30D instead of 400D)
should show the same settings.
...wouldn't that overexpose the image? Besides, the flash (on the Canon at least--don't know about the others) never meters in spot mode. Metering mode for the flash has to be chosen in a C.Fn, and it's only either evaluative or average.

So again my advice for you is to shoot with the flash in manual mode and let the exposure fall where it may.
On the gripping hand ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gripping_hand ),
are you telling me that you got 20 shots at 5fps on the Canon but
11 shots at 3fps on the Nikon (and the Sony)? That would really
be something.
Nope, I set the Canon to 3 fps. Although the 580EX II works just as
nicely at 10 fps on the EOS 1D3.

I'll try repeating the test today if I find the time.
How did you find yourself in possession of all these cameras? Can you send me a set you don't want when you're done??

--
R.I.P. my K.M. 5-D 16-4-2007

Hardly a single working camera. 100% experience-free poster. 100% theoretical musings.
 
--that a 'full frame' (not really) Canon can do all the jobs of the
pro DX Nikon bodies? If Nikon had something like the 1DIII in their
lineup all their pro DX bodies would indeed be obsoleted.

Look at Canon--what's the highest level EF-S body they have? The
30D would hardly measure up to a D80 to me if it didn't have 5fps.
Never even mind the D200, or single-digit Nikons.
I think it's fairly obvious that once a full frame Nikon arrives,
all pro grade DX Nikons would be deprecated. It's possible that
they'd feature a 'DX' mode to mount the (then) legacy DX lenses,
but the inconveniences of using a full frame viewfinder with
reduced frame lenses wouldn't really cut it, I think.
'Sports finder'?
The fact that they can have EF-S lenses selling at the same price
as DX lenses shows that lens prices can hold up despite the pro
EF-S bodies being replaced by FF ones.
Yes, but the difference between 30D and 5D is quite glaring. I'd
choose the 30D + 17-55/2.8 over 5D + 28-90/3.5-5.6 any time, and
I'd get it cheaper. Heck, the Nikon D200+DX 17-55/2.8 is cheaper
than 5D, and arguably, a lot better. The 'killer combo'
(5D+24-105/4) is quite attractive, but still a lot more expensive
than the 30D or D200 kit. It does feature IS and L grade build,
though, but so does the Nikon.
What's your point? That there's a place for pro EF-S glass after all--even on a body like the 30D?
Anyway, what I mean to say is that if Nikon introduces a pro grade
full frame body, it's a death toll to professional DX lenses. The
17-55 would probably get re-released without the weather sealings,
in a plastic body, but with VR, for the same price, if we were to
observe what Canon is doing (pro grade prices, pro grade
specifications, amateur grade build quality).
Sounds like Canon is getting even more profit out of their ""pro"" EF-S glass than Nikon then. Don't ask me who is snapping up these faux pro glass for cut-throat prices, but apparently somebody is. Nikon should do just fine with a FF release, and DX lenses with real pro build should maintain their value, if not appreciate. Ha ha.

--
R.I.P. my K.M. 5-D 16-4-2007

Hardly a single working camera. 100% experience-free poster. 100% theoretical musings.
 
...wouldn't that overexpose the image?
Well, it might overexpose the shot. But I did write that the noise was characteric of the cameras tested.
Besides, the flash (on the
Canon at least--don't know about the others) never meters in spot
mode. Metering mode for the flash has to be chosen in a C.Fn, and
it's only either evaluative or average.
I didn't check it. But the flash exposure favors the picked AF sensor very much and that worked very obviously when I tried spot exposure in various situations (dark spot on white backgroud, inverted, etc.).
I'll try repeating the test today if I find the time.
How did you find yourself in possession of all these cameras? Can
you send me a set you don't want when you're done??
Well, I work in a photo store... There's the nice opportunity of handling almost every camera (that the chain carries) that comes to the market. I find myself very scarce time to do such tests, though, unless I choose to stay after hours (which is very, very rare).
 

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