Reason why Lightsphere works indoors?!

First of all. I don't own a Lightsphere. I'm still grasping the whole lighting concept and trying to see what diffuser will be suitable for what condition. Or more so, what diffuser is "best" for a given situation and lighting style. I'm currently trying to design one that is most versatile one for my shooting style and habits. Check out this link about DIY projects that I started.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1025&message=23462940

So I was looking at existing designs on the market and seeing how each would work. And of course there is the infamous Lightsphere.

I think why the lightsphere is more than mimicking a large uniformed light source and having very diffuse (or non parallel) light rays. I think another reason why it works that the light hits many different walls 360 degrees which are all different different distances from the subject. Therefore you get different "intensities" of light rays hitting the subject. Thus mimicking a studio with different strobes at different angles of attack with different intensity. But I'm not sure it this is right. Can someone confirm this? Thanks in advance.

I guess I disagree that the lightsphere even works, for starters. Mostly because no one will clearly define, scientifically, what"works" means.

I would suggest that you define "works" for any given situation (in other words, find an image that you want to replicate) and work backward from there.

"Works", to me means highly diffused. The best candids or indoor shots that I've seen using a speedlight were done by bouncing the bare flash off of an available surface, not by killing the flash output with some gadget.
Just my opinion,
-Kent

I guess what I'm really getting at is whether having the flash light bounce off more than one surface will get more desirable results than say bouncing off one given surface. Bouncing off say a back wall will give you the look of a very large diffuser but the lighting intensity across the subject will be very uniformed. Not an ideal form of lighting from what I gathered from this forum. But I figured if you bounce light off two different walls, that will given you more variance in the lighting characteristics. A bit of oblique lighting maybe. Not sure. Remember, I don't have a Lightsphere and will probably never buy one. But trying to see however I can modify my own project. Can you show me a photo "works" for you. Thanks in advance.

Kent Johnson said:

I guess I disagree that the lightsphere even works, for starters.
Mostly because no one will clearly define, scientifically,
what"works" means.
I would suggest that you define "works" for any given situation (in
other words, find an image that you want to replicate) and work
backward from there.
"Works", to me means highly diffused. The best candids or indoor
shots that I've seen using a speedlight were done by bouncing the
bare flash off of an available surface, not by killing the flash
output with some gadget.
Just my opinion,
-Kent

Click to expand...

I shot this with zero prep a few minutes ago. This is a ham-handed attempt, in other words. Ancient D100, off camera cord, SB800 in manual, full power. I simply moved the flash around until I got decent facial shadows and a decent catchlight:



This is a bounce off of one wall and ceiling corner. Not uniform at all and very contrasty. If I needed fill I could have used the on cam flash in manual mode at 1/8 power and had decent neutral fill.

In the past I've bounced off of a nice white shirt worn by a large man and gotten a killer key light. Point is, you can generally find something at a party or in most any area you shoot that will look more natural than a lightsphere.
I'm just not a fan of those gadgets, no offense meant to you at all.
-Kent

Thanks Kent. That is an awesome photo. Exactly what I'm looking for. Question for you though. Is the light on the left side of the face just light spilling over from the bounce from the ceiling corner, or is it from the ambient room lighting, or is it the light that bounced off the ceiling corner that went past the subject to an opposite wall and back to slightly fill the left side of the subjects face. Maybe I'm over thinking it but just wanted to know exactly what is happening with the light. Thanks again.

Kent Johnson said:

I shot this with zero prep a few minutes ago. This is a ham-handed
attempt, in other words. Ancient D100, off camera cord, SB800 in
manual, full power. I simply moved the flash around until I got
decent facial shadows and a decent catchlight:



This is a bounce off of one wall and ceiling corner. Not uniform at
all and very contrasty. If I needed fill I could have used the on
cam flash in manual mode at 1/8 power and had decent neutral fill.
In the past I've bounced off of a nice white shirt worn by a large
man and gotten a killer key light. Point is, you can generally find
something at a party or in most any area you shoot that will look
more natural than a lightsphere.
I'm just not a fan of those gadgets, no offense meant to you at all.
-Kent

Click to expand...

It's all about the details. This was shot at 1/60th of a second f/9 whereas most candids are shot at the highest sync possible (unless you want to drag the shutter, but that's another story). So there is ambient light coming in from the camera right but it is mostly from the ceiling and opposite wall. Notice the white iBook is also adding a bit of it's own fill ;-) Not sure how much light Garage Band puts out but he was there, too.

I should say that proper white balance is critical for this kind of bouncing. Insane color casts can creep in when you least need them.

The ambient light has changed a lot since I took the photo but if we don't hit the beach I'll snap another one tomorrow at the same time without flash and see what happens. I can also shoot it with the neutral fill I described earlier if you are curious (although with her position relative to the wall we'll get a nasty sharp shadow right behind her).

denny2020 said:

Kent Johnson said:

I shot this with zero prep a few minutes ago. This is a ham-handed
attempt, in other words. Ancient D100, off camera cord, SB800 in
manual, full power. I simply moved the flash around until I got
decent facial shadows and a decent catchlight:

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

denny2020 said:

denny2020 said:

This is a bounce off of one wall and ceiling corner. Not uniform at
all and very contrasty. If I needed fill I could have used the on
cam flash in manual mode at 1/8 power and had decent neutral fill.
In the past I've bounced off of a nice white shirt worn by a large
man and gotten a killer key light. Point is, you can generally find
something at a party or in most any area you shoot that will look
more natural than a lightsphere.
I'm just not a fan of those gadgets, no offense meant to you at all.
-Kent

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

denny2020 said:

I think why the lightsphere is more than mimicking a large
uniformed light source and having very diffuse (or non parallel)
light rays. I think another reason why it works that the light
hits many different walls 360 degrees which are all different
different distances from the subject. Therefore you get different
"intensities" of light rays hitting the subject. Thus mimicking a
studio with different strobes at different angles of attack with
different intensity. But I'm not sure it this is right. Can
someone confirm this? Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

Well of course because the light radiates 360 it will bounce off anything it hits. That is why it lights up the room like and overcast day. That is even light perhaps, but do you really thing it is good light?

Good light is light which models the faces of your subjects in a flattering way...

Good light is light which you can control: character, direction, intensity, ratio...

Good light is light which creates CONTRAST and shadows. It's not even light which guides the eye of the view to what is important it is the contrast of what is important with the background. If foreground and background merge into a morass of sameness the viewer's eye will wander at random.

See http://super.nova.org/DPR/Design/

CG

Thanks for all the help. I guess it's important to know where the light bounces to kind of visualize how the photo will turn out before you even take the photo. In candid situations sometimes you really only have one shot at it. i.e. no test shot. That's why I'm trying to understand it technically. But your info definitely helps which is much appreciated. This goes back to my original point though. Because by bouncing light off wallS, you essentially achieve the illusion of different light sources and intensities which make the photo "work". I just have to now learn how to use the walls to my advantage effectively like you have. I think the lightsphere is kinda like "lighting for dummies". Most people that use it don't really know why it "works." I mean I've just recently been to a wedding where the hired pro was using it and was shooting a 70-200 f4 lens likely at 200 mm from where he was standing in a banquet hall with no wall near him and the ceiling was 15 feet high. And I was thinking to myself, man is that flash head taking a beating. I'm would be surprised if the photo even got any adequate lighting from it.

But I'm still looking to make my own modifier for situations which may not be ideal for bouncing the light. Looking at Chuck Gs designs but to be modified for my liking

Thanks again.

Kent Johnson said:

denny2020 said:

Kent Johnson said:

I shot this with zero prep a few minutes ago. This is a ham-handed
attempt, in other words. Ancient D100, off camera cord, SB800 in
manual, full power. I simply moved the flash around until I got
decent facial shadows and a decent catchlight:

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Kent Johnson said:

Kent Johnson said:

This is a bounce off of one wall and ceiling corner. Not uniform at
all and very contrasty. If I needed fill I could have used the on
cam flash in manual mode at 1/8 power and had decent neutral fill.
In the past I've bounced off of a nice white shirt worn by a large
man and gotten a killer key light. Point is, you can generally find
something at a party or in most any area you shoot that will look
more natural than a lightsphere.
I'm just not a fan of those gadgets, no offense meant to you at all.
-Kent

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

"ligthing for dummies" is not to offend ALL lightsphere users. My apologizes.

denny2020 said:

But I'm still looking to make my own modifier for situations which
may not be ideal for bouncing the light. Looking at Chuck Gs
designs but to be modified for my liking

Thanks again.

Kent Johnson said:

denny2020 said:

Kent Johnson said:

I shot this with zero prep a few minutes ago. This is a ham-handed
attempt, in other words. Ancient D100, off camera cord, SB800 in
manual, full power. I simply moved the flash around until I got
decent facial shadows and a decent catchlight:

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

denny2020 said:

denny2020 said:

This is a bounce off of one wall and ceiling corner. Not uniform at
all and very contrasty. If I needed fill I could have used the on
cam flash in manual mode at 1/8 power and had decent neutral fill.
In the past I've bounced off of a nice white shirt worn by a large
man and gotten a killer key light. Point is, you can generally find
something at a party or in most any area you shoot that will look
more natural than a lightsphere.
I'm just not a fan of those gadgets, no offense meant to you at all.
-Kent

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Chuck. Will lighthing been even with the lightsphere? If a light bounces off a wall 2 feet away from a subject and the same light with the same output bounces off a wall 15 feet away from the subject, isn't the intensities of the light different on the same subject. ex. subject standing a room with two walls only. One wall on left and one on the right of the subject. The walls are 10 feet apart. and the left of the subject is 1 feet for the left wall and the right of the subject is 9 feet from the right wall (yes I know this mean the subject is infinitely thin but just for illustration purposes). A lightsphere fires infront of the subject say 4 feet away. Does the light intensity falling on the right side of the face equal the light intensity fall on the left side of the face? The so called even lighting. Or is the left side of the face brighter than the right side of the face. I didn't want to make it seem like a physics exam question but I just wanted to know what exactly happens here. Thanks in advance. Your advice is always much appreciated.

Chuck Gardner said:

denny2020 said:

I think why the lightsphere is more than mimicking a large
uniformed light source and having very diffuse (or non parallel)
light rays. I think another reason why it works that the light
hits many different walls 360 degrees which are all different
different distances from the subject. Therefore you get different
"intensities" of light rays hitting the subject. Thus mimicking a
studio with different strobes at different angles of attack with
different intensity. But I'm not sure it this is right. Can
someone confirm this? Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

Well of course because the light radiates 360 it will bounce off
anything it hits. That is why it lights up the room like and
overcast day. That is even light perhaps, but do you really thing
it is good light?

Good light is light which models the faces of your subjects in a
flattering way...

Good light is light which you can control: character, direction,
intensity, ratio...

Good light is light which creates CONTRAST and shadows. It's not
even light which guides the eye of the view to what is important it
is the contrast of what is important with the background. If
foreground and background merge into a morass of sameness the
viewer's eye will wander at random.

See http://super.nova.org/DPR/Design/

CG

Click to expand...

than I thought I did. I have a Lightsphere Clear with dome, a Demb Diffuser/Flip It, an OmniBounce, and have now made A Better Bounce Card. I actually use them all for different things. The part I didn't understand had to do with how the shape of the beam of light affects the results, and how the beam is re-directed.

I don't know about parallel or unparallel light rays, but basically, I believe the reason the LS works (it DOES work) is because it spreads light out (like a bare bulb) and uses walls and ceilings to redirect light onto the subject. The one basic concept here is--the larger the light source, the softer and more wrap-around the light. The LS does not stop the beam on it's way to the walls and ceilings, like a bounce card does, for instance, so the beam gets a chance to widen and cover as much surface area as possible, resulting in a very large light source (larger than you could conceivably attach to a flash).

One of the things the LS instructions say is to put the dome on it if the ceilings are low and take the dome off if the ceilings are high. This is because if you don't put the dome on and shoot in a room with low ceilings, you will notice that you will get shadowed eye sockets. What's happening is the beam isn't given much of a chance to widen before hitting the ceiling, and it will basically hit a small part of the ceiling and redirect downward onto the subject. The dome diffuses that beam force. The light hits more of the ceiling and with less "force". I have found that I can mimic this effect somewhat by manually zooming the flash head to a wider position--usually the flash defaults to the 50mm position when the head is tilted. With high ceilings, the beam has time to widen out before hitting a larger portion of the ceiling.

This same concept can be applied to bounce cards. You are basically taking a part of the flash's beam and redirecting it forward, but the part that is redirected isn't widening out before being re-directed--that is why bounce card results aren't as soft.

are colored, you get different tints in your frame. A reflector, in my opinion, will do a better work.
Yehuda

denny2020 said:

I think another reason why it works that the light
hits many different walls 360 degrees which are all different
different distances from the subject.

Click to expand...

I have a Gary Fong LightSphere.

I got the LightSphere when I was still a newbie at lighting and got fooled into buy it. After teaching myself how to light, I can tell you it's definitely not worth the money.

Here are some common mistakes I see people make with the LightSphere:

• Using the it outdoors on a bright sunny day.
• Using the it indoors in a room with high ceiling.
• Using it to shoot subjects that are far away

Here are some cases where the LightSphere might have some value:

• You are stuck with an on-camera flash in room with low ceiling and you want some extra fill in the subject's face.
• You want to simulate the bare-bulb effect in a small space.

I think the most important thing with any lighting technique or tool is to think about when and how it should be applied. Using any tool indiscriminately will only lead to poor results. See the following photo for an example of how NOT to use a flash.

I have a cloud Lightsphere, on a Canon 50EX flash.

It is a wonderful device, well and truly worth the money, although you can b e astounded that so little in raw materials can turn into so much in picture-taking benefits.

You are either overthinging or underthing... a Lightsphere does a lot of different things, whether indoors or out.

Indoors, you can leave the dome on or take it off, and you can twist the flash head so the dome, or the end where the dome goes, points up at the ceiling, left or right, or straight ahead, pointed at the subject.

If you want, and can arrange the logistics, you can move the subject into a corner, and take advantage of the diffusion in all directions.

Or leave the person in the middle of a room, where all the walls are too far away to make any difference.

And you can take a zip loc bag, put a sheet of black paper inside, and drop it over the Lightsphere so the black is at the back, so at some side you choose, so the light does not go back and hiit, say, a purple wall.

Or put a piece of aluminum foil into the Zip Loc bag, drop the bag over the Lightsphere, and increase the output.

Plus, remember that the Lightsphere -- assuming you point it this way -- gets the flash a few more inches above the camera, gving you the advantages -- or at least many of the advantages -- of a flash bracket.

Some people seem to think the Lightsphere is a substitute for thinking, and some seem to forget that it's main advantages come to photographers working reasonably, or very, quickly.

Yeah, I could move my piano, and paint my walls, and get the flash off the camera, and set up a light stand, and open up the umbrella, and take some flash meter readings... and that's the way to go for lots of shots, WHEN YOU HAVE TIME

But when you are moving through a room where there's a party going on... it's a great gadget.

BAK

Yes, the placement of the LS and the subject within room will effect the light hitting the subject. But the odds of that arrangement producing an effective flattering light pattern on a face 8ft from the camera are rather unpredictable unless you have previously tested that arrangement.

Precise control over the direction of the light and shadows is really the essence of lighting. If you think you can precisely control your light with the LS with four cushion bank shots then use it and be happy. But until you compare the LS it with other more effective solutions such as using two flashes you will not realize its limitations.

CG

denny2020 said:

Chuck. Will lighthing been even with the lightsphere? If a light
bounces off a wall 2 feet away from a subject and the same light
with the same output bounces off a wall 15 feet away from the
subject .....

Click to expand...

BAK said:

Some people seem to think the Lightsphere is a substitute for
thinking, and some seem to forget that it's main advantages come to
photographers working reasonably, or very, quickly.

Click to expand...

This is what I think many people forget when they talk about the LS. Its a tool made for the Photo Journalist, Wedding Photographer (PJ style). Sure if your planning out a shot where you can think about fill, key, hairlight, BG.. etc then thats great. But when you need to take a shot where you have one chance during a live award show and you have all of 5 seconds to make sure you get the shot, well the LS does as advertised. Over and over again. Is it lit perfect, nope. beats the bare flash though.

BAK said:

But when you are moving through a room where there's a party going
on... it's a great gadget.

BAK

Click to expand...

agreed 10000%







BTW the Girl with the blue top in these photos is the emcee Jen Herrera from Channel 10 local news here in South-Eastern Florida (Ft.laud-Miami) the guy on the right.. is me

--
-Greg

http://www.gregknapp.net/
Equipment in Profile

Geek:
There are 10 types of people in this world.
Those who understand binary and those that dont.

All the LS shots you posted have subjects posed against distracting backgrounds.

Why do we shoot portraits on plain backgrounds? To eliminate distractions from the face. I feel one of the most important jobs lighting should perform in candid situations is to separate the subject from the distracting clutter of background. For that type of shot a flash on a bracket with a reflection diffuser will produce lighting on the faces which is identical, but it will allow the distractions of the background to fade into the shadows.

There are situations where the background needs to be illuminated to provide context to the foreground. In those situations a LS would be a good tool, but OTOH just bouncing the light off the ceiling with the top flap of one of these open would work just as well:



Now lets consider if you were taking the grip and grin photos in a hall with 40' high ceilings or outdoors at night. How well would your LS work there without a ceiling to diffuse the light? A flash on a bracket with a diffuser as shown above would work exactly the same.

You raise the point of the photographer not having the time to figure out a new lighting scenario for each shot he takes and that is precisely the benefit of the bracket / reflection diffuser technique. It provides the same consistent and predictable flattering facial lighting regardless of where it is used. So by your own criteria doesn't that make it a more effective solution for rapid fire quick moving situation?

Also its worth mentioning that with experience and an off camera flash stand with wheels using two lights is as simple both technically and logistically as using a single flash. At least that's been my experience over the past 35 years of shooting that way. Granted it is not always possible to position the off camera light for lighting like this one at a crowded party:



but simply parking it behind the action provides a dimension to the lighting a single flash - no matter how its sliced and diced - can't match;



CG

The shots I put up were from an award ceremony. The backgrounds were purposely lit (drag). The BG is about 1/2 to 1 stop less then the subjects (for the stage shots) The table shots were less thoughtful on the backgrounds.

The ceilings in this hall were probably 15ft. I worked with it.

Your example of an all black background (except the people, white glove?) does not illustrate your point on backgrounds, unless you were just trying to show how the second light off to the left effected the guys face. I still prefer to see the background better lit.

The people in the hug photo are well lit, but where are they? without a hint of background your falling short of telling the full story.

These are just my preferences, we each have them. Please dont take my critisim as an attack on you or your skill.

--
-Greg

http://www.gregknapp.net/
Equipment in Profile

Geek:
There are 10 types of people in this world.
Those who understand binary and those that dont.

Apparently the new Whale Tail has similar features to the Lightsphere but adds more flexibility and can perform like a controllable bounce card. Does anyone has some experience with it ?
--
Luiz

Thanks for all the responses but I'm really interested in the following below to help me understand what a single source can do and produce. Thanks in advance.

denny2020 said:

Chuck Gardner said:

denny2020 said:

I think why the lightsphere is more than mimicking a large
uniformed light source and having very diffuse (or non parallel)
light rays. I think another reason why it works that the light
hits many different walls 360 degrees which are all different
different distances from the subject. Therefore you get different
"intensities" of light rays hitting the subject. Thus mimicking a
studio with different strobes at different angles of attack with
different intensity. But I'm not sure it this is right. Can
someone confirm this? Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

Well of course because the light radiates 360 it will bounce off
anything it hits. That is why it lights up the room like and
overcast day. That is even light perhaps, but do you really thing
it is good light?

Good light is light which models the faces of your subjects in a
flattering way...

Good light is light which you can control: character, direction,
intensity, ratio...

Good light is light which creates CONTRAST and shadows. It's not
even light which guides the eye of the view to what is important it
is the contrast of what is important with the background. If
foreground and background merge into a morass of sameness the
viewer's eye will wander at random.

See http://super.nova.org/DPR/Design/

CG

Click to expand...

Click to expand...