Why No D-SLR In-Camera Stabilization

And as stabilization technology improves, you can always upgrade to
it via the lens. If your body had stabilization version 1.0, you're
stuck with it as long as you have your SLR body, even if version
2.0 is on the market
But lenses are more expensive than camera bodies, and glass doesn't become obsolete like digital camera bodies.

It's a lot less expensive to buy a new camera body, which you would do anyway to take advantage of other technology improvements like higher ISO, more MP, faster focus, etc., and then all of your thousands of dollars worth of lenses become upgraded to better IS at the same time.
 
... the makers of in-camera stab. systems are , combined,
outselling both Nikon and Canon... NOT!
Just another example of how superior technology is outsold by superior marketing.

And by "marketing" I mean more than just the quality of advertising, but rather the control of distribution channels and the brand loyalty of consumers who rather make excuses for why their favorite brand doesn't have in-camera IS than admit that another brand maybe has superior technology.
 
You, too, are missing my point.

I never said any brand was junk. I contend only that in-camera vs.
in-lens stabilization makes no difference significant enough to
effect meaningful change in market share.

Canon and Nikon had big leads in DSLR sales at pro and consumer
level, and they still do. And I bet they still will in the future.

If in-camera stab. was such a great benefit, mightn't we see a few
pros looking for a qualitative edge switching from in-lens stab?

Bueller? Bueller? Anybody? Anybody?
Circular reasoning. The brands that have pro models also have dedicated themselves into in lens stabalization... partly because film which they were also strong in needs it. Those companies that are building thier DSLR lines without history of in lens stabilization have a choice and most of them are choosing in body systems.. and when they expand thier lines into the lower end pro market we will see how it is accepted. But because of the longenvity and lens collections any change will happen over years not months.
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Ken - KM 5D
http://www.cascadephotoworks.com
 
Agreed. People become brand loyalists instead of judging individual
cameras based on independent test reports like dpreview's. A shame
IMO. If we were all to equate total sales with quality, guess what
is the finest restaurant in America? Answer: McDonalds!
Since all DSLRs are Highly Reccomended here I assume you are saying they are all just as good?
best regards,

Nic
--
------------
Ken - KM 5D
http://www.cascadephotoworks.com
 
It's a lot less expensive to buy a new camera body, which you would
do anyway to take advantage of other technology improvements like
higher ISO, more MP, faster focus, etc., and then all of your
thousands of dollars worth of lenses become upgraded to better IS
at the same time.
Besides, I am still waiting for someone to point out all the IS upgrades to lenses. In 15 or so years I know of only one IS lens that Canon upgraded and it took about 15 years to do so. The rest are still using the original IS technology they had when released.

--
Henry Richardson
http://www.bakubo.com
 
From Canon and Nikon ?

http://flash.popphoto.com/blog/2007/06/why_no_incamera.html

snip from article:
"I think that the real reason that this technology does not and
most likely will not exist for some time in the major’s lineup is
probably a combination of both the technological and financial
reasons. I do find it hard to believe that if Canon found the
technology worthwhile that they would abandon it in favor of a
weaker, existing technology, but hey, crazier things have happened
in the name of the dollar."
The real reason is that Nikon and Canon are the market, they don't
need gimmicks to try to break into the market.
i doubt it would be an effective IS for FF sensors as it weighs a lot more, and is therefore slower to accelerate, therefore a lot less effective. B/se canon need to deal system wide over 3 sensors, they are between a rock and a hard place.
Secondary reason is that lens based stabilization really does work
better than body based stabilization. I tested them side by side
(well controlled procedures, cameras instrumented with
accelerometers, multiple lenses, as close to double blind testing
as we could arrange).
not the whole story, to keep the weight of the moving optic down they sacrifice F stop. Legacy glass sizes dont assist this situation. Canon OIS dont appear to be particularly fast lenses as a result
Which is a pity, because I wouldn't mind a stabilized Nikon body to
go with my 85mm f1.4 and 135mm f2.0. Let the body stabilizer
disengage peacefully when the superior stabilizer of the 70-200mm
f2.8 is available.
--
Riley

not everything that counts, can be counted
--
Riley

not everything that counts, can be counted
 
OIS obviously only comes with lenses you buy that have it

hence its more expensive, as opposed to the cost differential in 4/rds between 410 and 510 of just $100 ......but what about operationally?

if the sensor is small, definitely IS is better ... why?
because it can also handle rotational movement as well

and because the mass of the sensor and its mount matters. The rapidity of sensor movement in these circumstances means it will accelerate faster, and therefore have a higher transient speed and consequently is more efficient as opposed to

1/ larger sensors that accelerate slower (and i suspect you wont see it on FF for that reason, hence they will have to go OIS). Also it wont fit into the continued use of the 35mm mirrorbox

2/ or larger optics, ie OIS glass is heavy, you can get by with smaller lighter glass elements but this inevitably means that the min F stop suffer. If F stop doesnt suffer it becomes a mass momentum issue the same as for sensors.

--
Riley

not everything that counts, can be counted
 
Just another example of how superior technology is outsold by
superior marketing.

And by "marketing" I mean more than just the quality of
advertising, but rather the control of distribution channels and
the brand loyalty of consumers who rather make excuses for why
their favorite brand doesn't have in-camera IS than admit that
another brand maybe has superior technology.
The above comment suggests to me that you believe all Nikon/Canon owners are brainwash victims, unable to make valid decisions (as you see them ) because of the "power of advertising" factor of those respective companies.Forgive me if I say that this does not sound like a rational argument, you are completely ignoring the fine merits of some very good and innovative equipment.
Regards, Rod.
 
Because a professional will buy many more bodies over a career than
lenses. Let's say a Canon user buys the 17-55 f/2.8 IS and a 70-200
f/2.8 IS. He's purchased two IS units. Over a 40 year career he's
likely to buy ten cameras, but has only paid for two IS units.
1) IF true applies to a very small number of photogs in the overall

number of dslrs sold who MIGHT (but still very doubtfull to me) get almost as much value).

2) In body has been around for what...2/3 years? for KM/SONY and around a year or less for Pentax and Oly...so only another 37 years to go.

3) Most pro photogs will buy what they need and not be brand specific...just as Nikon people are going to Canon in droves...and may well go back in droves soon....or to Sony or Samsung or whoever has what they need.

4) In 20 years time even, they will probably using cameras the size of a mobile phone that do all that their entire kits do now....not entirely sure here as my crystal ball does not have in lens stabilisation.

5) how long have IS lenses been around? You can get some lovely but VERY expensive FD lenses with IS for your latest Cano....oh yeh ...sorry.

neil
 
Besides, I think for Pentax's part they are trying to get market
share in the non-pro market or maybe low-end pro market. The k10d
has been extremely successful for them--a lot more successful than
even they anticipated.
That may be the case, but the question at hand was without regard to pro vs consumer cameras, if I'm not mistaken.

--
[email protected]
 
In other words, you want to extract an angular acceleration signal
from two differenced displaced linear accelerometers. Either way
it's the same thing, the angular signal will be the same wherever
you are on the rigid body. Hence it still doesn't matter whether
you put the sensors in the lens or the body.
Except that the signal magnitude is larger when the distance
between the linear accelorometers is greater. Long lenses allow
larger displacements than the body.
Taking the difference of two linear accelerometers which are
displaced by millimetres will not give you a very clean signal.
Then how about 10s or hundreds of millimeters?
Alignment now becomes a problem. A small matter of 9.81m/s^2 makes this crucial, it'd give a difference signal if the two accelerometers weren't aligned and calibrated exactly, and any non-linearities in their responses would be magnified by the large offset. Local shock and vibration is also problematic, you have reduced common-mode rejection due to being separate units at large displacement. It'd be hard enough to implement your suggestion in a single integrated unit, basically infeasible (on the consumer level) in two separated units.

If you can show me a lens with two displaced linear accelerometers, one at the front and another at the back, for the purposes of angular acceleration detection, I may believe you.
I don't really think that coupled linear accelerometers would be
used in this application.
I know they are.
What's leads you to this conclusion? Any evidence to back up your knowing? Or is it going to be a case of, "IS", "ISn't", "IS", "ISn't" etc. You haven't given any credible reasons for their use.
You'll have to go back to the drawing board with this idea.
So will the camera manufacturers who are using it, I guess.
Hmm, strange how all the patents by Nikon and Canon I've looked at never mention linear accelerometers in relation to their IS lenses. They do mention "angular velocity gyros" though. E.g. Nikon patent US2002/015587 states, "Typically, angular velocity sensor is implemented utilizing a piezoelectric oscillation-type angular velocity sensor that detects Coriolis force". The Canon patents are similar in their description of their shake sensors, US2001/0028516 states, "A pitch angle (tilting angle in the vertical direction) detection circuit and a yaw angle (tilting angle in the horizontal direction) each detect a tilt angle by, for example, integrating the output from an angular velocity sensor, such as a vibrating gyroscope, fixed to the optical device."

Want to try again?

Cheers,
Daniel.
 
I have had no problems framing at 300mm using my inbody IS. I did
at first glance like the 30D with the IS lens because of the stable
viewfinder. But I have also run into people who get something
simluar to motion sickness with a stablized lens,because the eye
and the inner ear are out of sync. So it may not be universally
best... though I see some advantage at very long lenghts.
It all boils down to what kind of photography you do. For me, when I'm shooting birds, I can rarely get too telephoto. The 600mm + 1.4x TC + 1.6x body ( 1400mm f/5.6 IS) was a perfect combination, but I'm sure if I could get more telephoto at the same quality, I would take it. I own the 300mm f/4L IS and 1.4x TC, which gives me a hand-holdable 672mm f/5.6 equivalent.
Since the most popular FF DSLR is a Canon 5D with a target market
that will also buy more espensive lenses. This is circular
reasoning.
Expensive is not always proportional to quality. My 100mm f/2.8 Macro lens is exceptionally good (sharpest lens I own). My 300mm f/4L IS is also good. My 28-135 IS is good enough that I don't know why Canon didn't put an "L" red ring on the front like they did with the 24-105mm f/4L IS. I'm not going to go out and buy a camera body just for IS. I bought my 10D in 2003, and I'm not spending another $1500 until the 5D or its successor comes out at that price (it will happen).
In lens IS is needed for Film.. though I have a film body I bought
recently to give me the choice.. I don't use it. The advantages of
digital with the current sensor quality trump most DSLR uses of
film.
I bought my film camera back when digital hadn't yet matured ($2K was the cheapest DSLR back in 2002).
2. DSLR users tend to keep lenses and change bodies rather than the
other way around. So even if Canikon upgraded the in-lens IS, the
user probably wouldn't.
Really? Have you done or are you referring to a study that actually
suggests this, or is this your "gut feeling"? What about SLR users
and DSLR users? IS has been around longer than DSLRs, and it works
on SLRs. Before you ask for "scientific proof", maybe you should
back up your claims.
Look at the price of 6 year old bodies vs 6 year old lenses its
pretty obvious. Even in the film days the Body features and
designs changed every 3 years or so, while some lense designs would
last a decade.. this alone would reduce the need to "upgrade"
Unless you think it is common for people to spend money for a new
version of what they already have that is working.
I did. I bought a 28-105 f/4-5.6 lens as my "kit lens" with my Elan 7. Then I "upgraded" to the 28-135 f/3.5-5.6 IS. I bought a 70-300mm Sigma for my Elan 7, and later I bought a 300mm f/4L IS and a 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro. I've rented and used a couple dozen different lenses. I've never felt the need to rent a different camera body. I know several people who changed lenses much more often than bodies. It doesn't matter that the lens designs stick around for longer. If I want a mid range zoom for Canon, I have several choices from Canon, Sigma, Tamron, and Tokina as well as using lenses for other mounts via some adapter.

Some people swear by the kit lenses, and some other people buy a "kit lens", discover its limitations and spend more money on a replacement.
My keeper rate is much higher for my IS lenses, particularly in low
light at telephoto focal lengths. For wider angles (15-30mm x1.6),
softness from camera shake at slower speeds just isn't an issue I
have a problem with.
those that assume IS with wider
lenses isn't useful, may just have not imagined the possiblities...
Don't mistake my words. Just because I don't have a problem at wider angles doesn't mean that IS doesn't work there. Also, I rarely print my work or view it at unreasonably large sizes. I don't really have a hard time hand holding to get good 8"x10"+ prints. Perhaps it's because I'm still young and have relatively good hand-holding skills, or maybe it's because I'm good at composing so I don't need to crop too much. Maybe I'm just not terribly picky because since I went digital, I've felt a great jump in quality from my shots and I've learned so much from the instant review feature.

Still, if the 30D was available when I bought the 10D and the 17-55mm f/2.8 IS was available when I bought the Sigma 15-30mm, I would have bought them instead. All of my equipment works fine on my film camera and my digital. My intended upgrade path is to either a 1D series for its improved AF system or to the 5D (or newer model) for better sensitivity in low light.

If I could buy a DSLR with in-body IS that worked with my lenses, I probably would do so, depending on the cost and if the other features of the body were also improved. I'm not closed minded about these systems, and I've used quite a few other brand products and have quite a few friends who swear by X, Y, and Z product/technology. But I know what I know, and I talk from my experience

-Mike
http://demosaic.blogspot.com
 
So how many short focal length (
make with IS. Not one, I think.
IS and short FL = next to useless.
To your photographic experience perhaps. But if you had ever tried to take a wide angle shot in a Northwest forest on an overcast day (or even a sunny one for that matter), you wouldn't make such a statement. It isn't always possible to use a tripod in some situations, (like hanging over a ledge with the camera in one hand, for instance). I work in downtown Portland Oregon, and in the winter months it is not unusual for the streetlights (which have light sensors on top) to turn on in the middle of the day! Now that is what you call low-light! Lugging around a tripod all the time is NOT an option! If all Canon lenses were IS, there would be only one issue...price. But as it stands, for some of us at least, Canon technology doesn't have the goods and is behind the curve!
--
G. Lassman
 
The above comment suggests to me that you believe all Nikon/Canon
owners are brainwash victims, unable to make valid decisions (as
you see them ) because of the "power of advertising" factor of
those respective companies.Forgive me if I say that this does not
sound like a rational argument, you are completely ignoring the
fine merits of some very good and innovative equipment.
No, I just mean what I mean, that the fact that one brand outsells another doesn't mean the higher selling brand is better.

Probably Canon was better at one time in the past when people were using film, which helped it move to the top of the heap. But now that it's at the top, all it has to do is coast, and Canon can stay up there even if its technology isn't as good as Olympus or Sony.
 
You may be unfamiliar with chess. Checkmate is what you say when
you win.
Oh, I haven't played chess since, let's see, 1968 or 1969, was it? But I do remember that bit.
How often does a pro need a stabilized short lens?
I, for instance, have recently shot a movie still under candlelight and could not use a tripod in the movie set. I ended up shooting 1/3s handheld (look again, that's 1/3s, not 1/30s). If I had IS, it would have been a lot easier.

So, the answer to your question is... as most everything in photography, it depends. You may or may not need it in any particular shoot.

Having in-body IS just makes the system more versatile, which is the heart of DSLR.

--
Best regards,

Bruno Lobo.



http://www.pbase.com/brunobl
 
So how many short focal length (
make with IS. Not one, I think.
IS and short FL = next to useless.
I disagree. IS (aka SR) allows me get by without a tripod for
waterfall shooting. I'm talking in the 17-50mm range and 1/5-1/2s shutter speeds.

Bart
--
http://zumbari.zenfolio.com
I have a 24-105 (which is wider than 17 MM on a crop camera) that has IS.....
So the only place that Canon doesn't have IS is the sub 24 MM "FF" equiv.

I'll take my 16-35 F2.8 II on a FF camera over a 10-20 F4-F5.6 with IS on a crop camera any day of the week.

--
http://www.pbase.com/ewhalen

 
Show me an Olympus or Sony as good as the 1D MK III, 1DS MK II, 5D, 30D, etc.
No, I just mean what I mean, that the fact that one brand outsells
another doesn't mean the higher selling brand is better.

Probably Canon was better at one time in the past when people were
using film, which helped it move to the top of the heap. But now
that it's at the top, all it has to do is coast, and Canon can stay
up there even if its technology isn't as good as Olympus or Sony.
--
http://www.pbase.com/ewhalen

 
Show me an Olympus or Sony as good as the 1D MK III, 1DS MK II, 5D,
30D, etc.
Since Sony has yet to release in those markets and you didn't add the Rebel to your list. They must have done exactly what they wanted a camera that even Canonphiles are willing to concede competes well there.

The Sony falls in between the 400D and 30D for the price of the 400D that makes it a good deal.

--
------------
Ken - KM 5D
http://www.cascadephotoworks.com
 

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