Canon D60 concerns - sample picture

Frank B · Mar 10, 2002

I am considering upgrading to an interchangeable lens SLR. I reviewed the pictures on Steve’s site and there is one picture there which has some fine wires coming from a post which are very difficult for to distinguish from the background of the blue sky. The picture is the one of the red brick building at the corner of Nicholson Street. The post is about the fourth window down next to the building.

I am considering a Canon D60. When I looked at the D60 (preproduction) picture I noticed that you could barely see the wires. I decided to compare the D60 results with some other cameras. The D30 was a little better, but not great. The D1X had no problem distinguishing the wires and the Fuji S1 did a pretty good job. I even checked one of the sharper prosumer cameras, the Sony 707, and it did a much better then the Canon D60/D30.

I know the photos were taken at different times and with different exposures, but I think that the Canon D60 is relatively poor at distinguishing the wires. If this is not corrected in the production model will this carry over to its ability to distinguish detail in general when the differences in color are very subtle? A little like having a lens with great resolution on a 35mm, but with poor ability to distinguish minor differences of contrast in color detail.

I have a modest investment in Canon lenses, but now I’m wondering if I should consider a switch to a camera using the Nikon mount.

I would appreciate any thoughts on the matter.

The photos I looked at are :

Canon D60 IMG_2704

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2002_reviews/d60_samples.html

Canon D30 IMG_0667

http://www.steves-digicams.com/d30_samples.html

Fuji DSCF0109

http://www.steves-digicams.com/s1_samples.html

Nikon D1X 010616-1621-07

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2001_reviews/nikond1x_samples.html

Sony F707 DSC00250

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2001_reviews/f707_samples.html

Frank B

Jim DeLuco · Mar 10, 2002

I'm not sure this is a very scientific test. I think you really need to see the printed images from these cameras side by side. I am an S1 owner and did this at a camera store..compared the D30 and S1 images and the S1 won in my opinion. It also helped that I had some Nikon glass already.

If you have an investment in Canon lenses, for your first camera you won't be sorry with the D60.--Jim DeLucoDeLuco Photographywww.delucophoto.com

Zack Arias · Mar 10, 2002

Hi Frank,

I have to say that you should not base your purchase on sample images found on the web no matter where you find them (review site, store site, personal site, etc.)

While sample images are extremely helpful, one must take many things into consideration when dropping a couple of grand on a camera body. How well power lines resolve with an unknown lens / photographer / tripod/handheld / etc, etc, etc is not an absolute in how the camera will perform with you.

Also... if the resolution you are looking for is so fine as to distinguishing power lines in the distant then the photography you are doing may need to stay with film. A recent post from an arial photographer noted this... objects near infinity did not resolve as needed with a DSLR so he stayed with film.

So... what kind of photography you are doing will determine the camera you need.

For me I don't care how well those power lines resolve because details that small and at such a distance make no difference in what I shoot. I probably would prefer that those details just go away to start with.

Don't spend a couple thousand dollars just based on sample photos on the web. Seeing them in the format and environment that you work in is more important and getting your hands on the camera for fit and feel can be just as important a factor in anything. I bet if you got that D60 today, you wouldn't be able to get the smile off your face for some time to come!

Cheers,
Zack Arias
Dallas, TX

http://www.usedfilm.com
http://www.bridalfilms.com

Z (is real) · Mar 10, 2002

Apply a little sharpening to the D60 image and see how it looks. You will also likely have more leeway in working with a RAW file here.

If you'r workflow needs preclude doing any amount of postprocessing, then this sort of thing might be minorly important. Otherwise, it is likely completely fungible in post processing and also very likely do to different decisions made about in-camera image processing, not fundamental differences in the sensors. Most cameras allow some configuration of the in camera image processing. Though the "twiddles" on the D30 (and probably the D60) are fairly subtle.

All that on top of the previously mentioned exposure differences...

-Z-

Frank B · Mar 10, 2002

No problem with workflow. Sharpening did not help much.

Frank B

Z (is real) said:
Apply a little sharpening to the D60 image and see how it looks.
You will also likely have more leeway in working with a RAW file
here.

If you'r workflow needs preclude doing any amount of
postprocessing, then this sort of thing might be minorly important.
Otherwise, it is likely completely fungible in post processing and
also very likely do to different decisions made about in-camera
image processing, not fundamental differences in the sensors. Most
cameras allow some configuration of the in camera image processing.
Though the "twiddles" on the D30 (and probably the D60) are fairly
subtle.

All that on top of the previously mentioned exposure differences...

-Z-

Frank B · Mar 10, 2002

Zack,

Your point may well be valid, I just do not want to go back to film. I do mostly outdoor photography and want as much subtlety of detail as I can get with a digital SLR that I can "afford". I'm also concerned as some D30 photos strike me as having an ever so slightly "painted" look. Maybe its just the lack of noise, but I wonder if the relatively noise free photos come at the expense of a sacrifice of color detail. I have a concern that the D60 may be "worse" than the D30 in this respect, as with the same size sensor and so many more pixels it inherently would have more noise.

I'm interested in the D60 because at 6MP it should have excellent resolution. The preliminary report on Image Resource indicates that it does. However, resolution numbers based on black & white lchars do not tell the whole story about resolution and I'm concerned.

Zack Arias said:
Hi Frank,
I have to say that you should not base your purchase on sample
images found on the web no matter where you find them (review site,
store site, personal site, etc.)

While sample images are extremely helpful, one must take many
things into consideration when dropping a couple of grand on a
camera body. How well power lines resolve with an unknown lens /
photographer / tripod/handheld / etc, etc, etc is not an absolute
in how the camera will perform with you.

Also... if the resolution you are looking for is so fine as to
distinguishing power lines in the distant then the photography you
are doing may need to stay with film. A recent post from an arial
photographer noted this... objects near infinity did not resolve as
needed with a DSLR so he stayed with film.

So... what kind of photography you are doing will determine the
camera you need.

For me I don't care how well those power lines resolve because
details that small and at such a distance make no difference in
what I shoot. I probably would prefer that those details just go
away to start with.

Don't spend a couple thousand dollars just based on sample photos
on the web. Seeing them in the format and environment that you
work in is more important and getting your hands on the camera for
fit and feel can be just as important a factor in anything. I bet
if you got that D60 today, you wouldn't be able to get the smile
off your face for some time to come!

Cheers,
Zack Arias
Dallas, TX

http://www.usedfilm.com
http://www.bridalfilms.com

Craig Strong · Mar 10, 2002

Frank,

From the looks of it, the time of day and lighting has the most to do with the difference between cameras distinguishing between the wires and the sky. The D60 image was shot with a clear sky while the wires were lit by the sun from behind and above the camera. This has left very little contrast to differentiate the wires from the blue sky.

You should not be considering any other camera system until you can hold the D60 in your hands and experiment with your own images from that machine on your computer/printer.

-Craig http://strongphotography.com

Frank B said:
I am considering upgrading to an interchangeable lens SLR. I
reviewed the pictures on Steve’s site and there is one picture
there which has some fine wires coming from a post which are very
difficult for to distinguish from the background of the blue sky.
The picture is the one of the red brick building at the corner of
Nicholson Street. The post is about the fourth window down next to
the building.

I am considering a Canon D60. When I looked at the D60
(preproduction) picture I noticed that you could barely see the
wires. I decided to compare the D60 results with some other
cameras. The D30 was a little better, but not great. The D1X had
no problem distinguishing the wires and the Fuji S1 did a pretty
good job. I even checked one of the sharper prosumer cameras, the
Sony 707, and it did a much better then the Canon D60/D30.

I know the photos were taken at different times and with different
exposures, but I think that the Canon D60 is relatively poor at
distinguishing the wires. If this is not corrected in the
production model will this carry over to its ability to distinguish
detail in general when the differences in color are very subtle? A
little like having a lens with great resolution on a 35mm, but with
poor ability to distinguish minor differences of contrast in color
detail.

I have a modest investment in Canon lenses, but now I’m wondering
if I should consider a switch to a camera using the Nikon mount.

I would appreciate any thoughts on the matter.

The photos I looked at are :

Canon D60 IMG_2704

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2002_reviews/d60_samples.html

Canon D30 IMG_0667

http://www.steves-digicams.com/d30_samples.html

Fuji DSCF0109

http://www.steves-digicams.com/s1_samples.html

Nikon D1X 010616-1621-07

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2001_reviews/nikond1x_samples.html

Sony F707 DSC00250

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2001_reviews/f707_samples.html

Frank B

Frank B · Mar 10, 2002

Yoou are right of course, I will have to wait and see and compare.

Frank B

Craig Strong said:
From the looks of it, the time of day and lighting has the most to
do with the difference between cameras distinguishing between the
wires and the sky. The D60 image was shot with a clear sky while
the wires were lit by the sun from behind and above the camera.
This has left very little contrast to differentiate the wires from
the blue sky.

You should not be considering any other camera system until you can
hold the D60 in your hands and experiment with your own images from
that machine on your computer/printer.

-Craig http://strongphotography.com

Frank B said:

I am considering upgrading to an interchangeable lens SLR. I
reviewed the pictures on Steve’s site and there is one picture
there which has some fine wires coming from a post which are very
difficult for to distinguish from the background of the blue sky.
The picture is the one of the red brick building at the corner of
Nicholson Street. The post is about the fourth window down next to
the building.

I am considering a Canon D60. When I looked at the D60
(preproduction) picture I noticed that you could barely see the
wires. I decided to compare the D60 results with some other
cameras. The D30 was a little better, but not great. The D1X had
no problem distinguishing the wires and the Fuji S1 did a pretty
good job. I even checked one of the sharper prosumer cameras, the
Sony 707, and it did a much better then the Canon D60/D30.

I know the photos were taken at different times and with different
exposures, but I think that the Canon D60 is relatively poor at
distinguishing the wires. If this is not corrected in the
production model will this carry over to its ability to distinguish
detail in general when the differences in color are very subtle? A
little like having a lens with great resolution on a 35mm, but with
poor ability to distinguish minor differences of contrast in color
detail.

I have a modest investment in Canon lenses, but now I’m wondering
if I should consider a switch to a camera using the Nikon mount.

I would appreciate any thoughts on the matter.

The photos I looked at are :

Canon D60 IMG_2704

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2002_reviews/d60_samples.html

Canon D30 IMG_0667

http://www.steves-digicams.com/d30_samples.html

Fuji DSCF0109

http://www.steves-digicams.com/s1_samples.html

Nikon D1X 010616-1621-07

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2001_reviews/nikond1x_samples.html

Sony F707 DSC00250

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2001_reviews/f707_samples.html

Frank B

Click to expand...

Z (is real) · Mar 10, 2002

Frank B said:
Zack,

Your point may well be valid, I just do not want to go back to
film. I do mostly outdoor photography and want as much subtlety of
detail as I can get with a digital SLR that I can "afford". I'm
also concerned as some D30 photos strike me as having an ever so
slightly "painted" look.

The D30 tends to be a bit on the soft side. (Hey, I kinda like it that way

) Color saturation is also less than many digital cameras, e.g. the F707V, though it tends to be a bit "brighter" than the top end pro SLRs. (EOS-1D and Nikon D1x.) All the cameras have user selectable settings for color saturation/brightness/sharpening/etc. . If you've got lots of time and access to all the cameras, you can definitely play with all those settings. My opinion is if you can't get the results you want in simple postprocessing, of a RAW file you probably won't get them by changing the camera parameters....

Judging the "look" is definitely important. Check out all the images tou can from a given camera and then take some shots of your own. You may end up having to say "well that camera is technically superior, but I just don't like the images it produces."

Frank B said:
Maybe its just the lack of noise, but I
wonder if the relatively noise free photos come at the expense of a
sacrifice of color detail. I have a concern that the D60 may be
"worse" than the D30 in this respect, as with the same size sensor
and so many more pixels it inherently would have more noise.

I don't think relating color saturation to noise is correct. Noise reduction can reduce detail, but it really shouldn't affect color much...

Frank B said:
I'm interested in the D60 because at 6MP it should have excellent
resolution. The preliminary report on Image Resource indicates
that it does. However, resolution numbers based on black & white
lchars do not tell the whole story about resolution and I'm
concerned.

This is very true. In fact this axis of image quality is likely where the Foveon sensor will offer the most improvement. (Consistent rendering of detail and color fidelity across wide ranges of scenery.)

-Z-

csidd · Mar 11, 2002

I only looked at the D60,D30 & F707 pics but I also noticed the D60 did not capture any detail of the flower on the street sign. The D30 pic captureed much more color and detail of the street sign flower. Maybe it was the angle and the sun?

Frank B said:
I am considering upgrading to an interchangeable lens SLR. I
reviewed the pictures on Steve’s site and there is one picture
there which has some fine wires coming from a post which are very
difficult for to distinguish from the background of the blue sky.
The picture is the one of the red brick building at the corner of
Nicholson Street. The post is about the fourth window down next to
the building.

I am considering a Canon D60. When I looked at the D60
(preproduction) picture I noticed that you could barely see the
wires. I decided to compare the D60 results with some other
cameras. The D30 was a little better, but not great. The D1X had
no problem distinguishing the wires and the Fuji S1 did a pretty
good job. I even checked one of the sharper prosumer cameras, the
Sony 707, and it did a much better then the Canon D60/D30.

I know the photos were taken at different times and with different
exposures, but I think that the Canon D60 is relatively poor at
distinguishing the wires. If this is not corrected in the
production model will this carry over to its ability to distinguish
detail in general when the differences in color are very subtle? A
little like having a lens with great resolution on a 35mm, but with
poor ability to distinguish minor differences of contrast in color
detail.

I have a modest investment in Canon lenses, but now I’m wondering
if I should consider a switch to a camera using the Nikon mount.

I would appreciate any thoughts on the matter.

The photos I looked at are :

Canon D60 IMG_2704

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2002_reviews/d60_samples.html

Canon D30 IMG_0667

http://www.steves-digicams.com/d30_samples.html

Fuji DSCF0109

http://www.steves-digicams.com/s1_samples.html

Nikon D1X 010616-1621-07

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2001_reviews/nikond1x_samples.html

Sony F707 DSC00250

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2001_reviews/f707_samples.html

Frank B

Ed Nazarko · Mar 11, 2002

fascinating to me how much this discussion resembles that of the threads on "film-y" websites about Fuji Astia versus Provia versus Kodachrome versus... it's very different than the discussions on this site a year ago.

it marks a very significant change in the tone of the discussion on digital. it's not "digital or not" but how to select a digital alternative to match with a personal imaging style. it's gone from debates on whether "there's clearly a superior camera" (can you imagine how loudly people would hoot down someone who maintained that you should only shoot one film type ever, no matter the situation or what your subject and style?) to "shoot some test shots with the subjects you like in the situation you work in, and pick what suits your style." these days, just like film, they all work really well - they just work differently well.

is that the sound of a corner being turned?

time to buy.

csidd said:
Frank B said:

I am considering upgrading to an interchangeable lens SLR. I
reviewed the pictures on Steve’s site and there is one picture

Click to expand...

etc.

Frank B · Mar 11, 2002

Z,

Thanks for your commensts. Just one reply.

Frank B

Z (is real) wrote:
...

Z (is real) said:
Z (is real) said:

Maybe its just the lack of noise, but I
wonder if the relatively noise free photos come at the expense of a
sacrifice of color detail. I have a concern that the D60 may be
"worse" than the D30 in this respect, as with the same size sensor
and so many more pixels it inherently would have more noise.

Click to expand...

I don't think relating color saturation to noise is correct. Noise
reduction can reduce detail, but it really shouldn't affect color
much...
...

I'm concerned with the D60's ability to distinguish colors when the differences are very subtle rather than with saturation. I can boost saturation (at some cost to detail), but can't get back detail lost because of a camera’s poor ability to differentiate colors. This might happen if noise reduction blends subtle differences in color to eliminate noise.

Frank B

Frank B · Mar 11, 2002

Someone else also suggested the angle of the sun. It may well be that. I will just have to wait and look at and print a lot of photos before I decide.

Frank B

csidd said:
Frank B said:

I am considering upgrading to an interchangeable lens SLR. I
reviewed the pictures on Steve’s site and there is one picture
there which has some fine wires coming from a post which are very
difficult for to distinguish from the background of the blue sky.
The picture is the one of the red brick building at the corner of
Nicholson Street. The post is about the fourth window down next to
the building.

I am considering a Canon D60. When I looked at the D60
(preproduction) picture I noticed that you could barely see the
wires. I decided to compare the D60 results with some other
cameras. The D30 was a little better, but not great. The D1X had
no problem distinguishing the wires and the Fuji S1 did a pretty
good job. I even checked one of the sharper prosumer cameras, the
Sony 707, and it did a much better then the Canon D60/D30.

I know the photos were taken at different times and with different
exposures, but I think that the Canon D60 is relatively poor at
distinguishing the wires. If this is not corrected in the
production model will this carry over to its ability to distinguish
detail in general when the differences in color are very subtle? A
little like having a lens with great resolution on a 35mm, but with
poor ability to distinguish minor differences of contrast in color
detail.

I have a modest investment in Canon lenses, but now I’m wondering
if I should consider a switch to a camera using the Nikon mount.

I would appreciate any thoughts on the matter.

The photos I looked at are :

Canon D60 IMG_2704

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2002_reviews/d60_samples.html

Canon D30 IMG_0667

http://www.steves-digicams.com/d30_samples.html

Fuji DSCF0109

http://www.steves-digicams.com/s1_samples.html

Nikon D1X 010616-1621-07

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2001_reviews/nikond1x_samples.html

Sony F707 DSC00250

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2001_reviews/f707_samples.html

Frank B

Click to expand...

Matti J. · Mar 11, 2002

I compared only D30 and D60 "red building" photo examples on Steve's site:

The D30 framing was appr. 80 % of the D60 example shot (D60 had larger FOV = more details cramped into the picture),

the native format for D30 shot was raw (published as 9.12 Mb tiff), D60 format was 2.84 Mb jpeg,

and the direction of sun in D30 sample was from right of photographer against nearly behind in D60 sample (look at the shadow of the chimney in the corner of the red building cast on the roof, appr. 2 hours in between).

I would say all these details were against D60. While samples certainly were interesting, they were not exactly objective nor taken in highly controlled situation (there is no claim that this even would be the case). Atleast the lense used is the same.

Frank B said:
Frank B

csidd said:

Frank B said:

I am considering upgrading to an interchangeable lens SLR. I
reviewed the pictures on Steve’s site and there is one picture
there which has some fine wires coming from a post which are very
difficult for to distinguish from the background of the blue sky.
The picture is the one of the red brick building at the corner of
Nicholson Street. The post is about the fourth window down next to
the building.

I am considering a Canon D60. When I looked at the D60
(preproduction) picture I noticed that you could barely see the
wires. I decided to compare the D60 results with some other
cameras. The D30 was a little better, but not great. The D1X had
no problem distinguishing the wires and the Fuji S1 did a pretty
good job. I even checked one of the sharper prosumer cameras, the
Sony 707, and it did a much better then the Canon D60/D30.

I know the photos were taken at different times and with different
exposures, but I think that the Canon D60 is relatively poor at
distinguishing the wires. If this is not corrected in the
production model will this carry over to its ability to distinguish
detail in general when the differences in color are very subtle? A
little like having a lens with great resolution on a 35mm, but with
poor ability to distinguish minor differences of contrast in color
detail.

I have a modest investment in Canon lenses, but now I’m wondering
if I should consider a switch to a camera using the Nikon mount.

I would appreciate any thoughts on the matter.

The photos I looked at are :

Canon D60 IMG_2704

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2002_reviews/d60_samples.html

Canon D30 IMG_0667

http://www.steves-digicams.com/d30_samples.html

Fuji DSCF0109

http://www.steves-digicams.com/s1_samples.html

Nikon D1X 010616-1621-07

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2001_reviews/nikond1x_samples.html

Sony F707 DSC00250

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2001_reviews/f707_samples.html

Frank B

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--Cheers,Matti J.

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Canon D60 concerns - sample picture

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