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Would it be moral for me to sell my H9 to an unsuspecting buyer on ebay?

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Seabear said:
When Alan says he is getting a higher percentage of keepers than
with previous cameras I see no reason to doubt that he is telling
the simple truth.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I just don't buy this story and not because it is Alan.

Even if Ansel Adams would have claimed to get sharper and better photos with the H9 than with top of the rank Nikon or medium format he worked with, he'd be either a liar or a lousy photographer.

I'm sorry but there is no such animal and if you would have some experience with medium format like Alan claims to have, you would have known that this is just can't be true.

I worked with medium format and I'm still keeping a Bronica ETRS with 80mm lens that I use whenever I need extreme sharp technical photos.

For daily work I usually use a 5d with some dedicated L lenses which believe me, beats the H9 hands down. And yet, it doesn't even come close to my medium format in terms of picture quality and sharpness.

And now, someone comes and tells me that he gets sharper and better photos with his H9 than with his medium format camera and I have to take him seriously? Do you really understand how ridiculous this statement is to put it mildly?

It is like someone tries to convince you that he can drive faster with his Toyota Yaris than with his Ferrari. Would you also see no reason to doubt that he is telling the simple truth? maybe, but in that case he'd probably be a very lousy driver...
Cheers
SB
 
In this special case, what appears to be a skilled promotion work for Sony is actually nothing else but an obsessive brand fixation and a desperate craving for recognition - and really nothing else, you may believe. Sony doesn't need the promoters of this kind.

There is indeed no reason to be harsh at all.
 
... you're only trying to help me, right?

That's why you call me a liar or a fool?

Well, sonyboy, my boy, there are things you don't know because you've swallowed the marketing hype lock-stock and barrel - only different marketing hype.

The Nikon D200 shipped with disastrous image quality issues... or didn't you know that?

Like this hideous banding issue that required a trip back to Nikon:



You like 100% crops: Well here's one. Those horizontal stripes? They're not in the subject, they're introduced by the camera. And note something else? Green C/A and PF, too, from the highly-regarded Nikkor 18-200 VR lens at $849 (more than the H9, of course). Do I have H9 pictures that look a hell of a lot better than this at 100%? You bet your A$$ I do!



My two D200s have gone back to Nikon 7 times in 1 1/2 years for either image quality, autofocus, or (this last time) a faulty lens mount.

And the IQ is so good just because it's a DSLR?

This time it's you who's the fanboy.

ISO 400 has chroma noise.
ISO 800 is a pretty bad mess
ISO 1600 is almost unusable.

But you're such an expert that you can call me a liar because of claims I made about a camera (the D200) that you don't know -anything- about and on which I've shot 40,000 frames?

BS.

You like to pixel-peep? How about this 200% crop of an ISO 250 shot with the D200 - this went back to Nikon with one of my repairs:



Pretty, huh? They didn't fix it.

Maybe YOUR DSLR has an infinitely better high-ISO or even medium-ISO IQ than the H-series, but my Nikon D200 assuredly does not! Is it a little bit better? Yes, about 1 stop. Sometimes.

Here's a D200 ISO 320. Check out the hairline. And this was a flash shot with the SB-800. Look at the clumped-up hair! Must be compression, right? Or is it noise-reduction.

Neither. This is a RAW shot, no NR, ISO 320 and saved at Photoshop level 12 JPEG compression:



Great image quality huh?

But I must be a liar, right?

Sometimes you just need to think a little bit before you call people names. There's just the slightest possibility that you may be wrong - or is that not in your lexicon? I guess you're perfect, and anyone who disagrees with your perfection is a liar.

Have I gotten better pictures than these with the H5 and H9? You bet your A$$.

Now let's see if you can deal with the truth. I seriously doubt it. I'm not sure you'd recognize it.

PS: The D200 got a "highly recommended" rave review here. The H9 got an "above average".

Where do I see it all landing?

The H9 is not as bad as you make it out to be, for whatever your agenda is.

And the D200, semi-pro DSLR is not as good.

So I must be a lousy photographer or a liar? Then why has Nikon been trying to improve this garbage for more than a year?

You don't know everything.
SonyBoy said:
Seabear said:
When Alan says he is getting a higher percentage of keepers than
with previous cameras I see no reason to doubt that he is telling
the simple truth.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I just don't buy this story and not because it is Alan.
Even if Ansel Adams would have claimed to get sharper and better
photos with the H9 than with top of the rank Nikon or medium format
he worked with, he'd be either a liar or a lousy photographer.
I'm sorry but there is no such animal and if you would have some
experience with medium format like Alan claims to have, you would
have known that this is just can't be true.
I worked with medium format and I'm still keeping a Bronica ETRS
with 80mm lens that I use whenever I need extreme sharp technical
photos.
For daily work I usually use a 5d with some dedicated L lenses
which believe me, beats the H9 hands down. And yet, it doesn't even
come close to my medium format in terms of picture quality and
sharpness.

And now, someone comes and tells me that he gets sharper and better
photos with his H9 than with his medium format camera and I have to
take him seriously? Do you really understand how ridiculous this
statement is to put it mildly?
It is like someone tries to convince you that he can drive faster
with his Toyota Yaris than with his Ferrari. Would you also see no
reason to doubt that he is telling the simple truth? maybe, but in
that case he'd probably be a very lousy driver...
Cheers
SB
Click to expand...
--
=~ AAK - http://www.aakatz.com
=~ Author of The White Paper
=~ http://www.aakatz.com/whitepaper
 
There they go again.
You're not even a Sony guy and you've got it wrong.

I've been bitching about the lack of fine compression since day 1.

I've been collecting anomalies from other H9 owners to present to Sony in an effort to get a firmware update. I have spent more than 50 hours on the phone with Sony.

I have analyzed the internals of more than 200 H9 .jpgs. And I've shot more than 5000 frames, so far.

I have spent infinitely more time and energies trying to address the issues while those here with an agenda have done nothing but wail and moan and call me names.

None of which will mean spit to Sony, but perhaps my efforts will.

Yes, you missed it.

So be careful, before you jump on a bandwagon, that you know where it's going, why it's going, and where it came from.
Soulful said:
I'm a newbie and have been a lurker for the the past 18months as
i've agonised over buying my first digital camera and did the whole
S3/H5/H2 debate and only last month finally bought an S3 even
before the specs of the S5 were released and after I'd seen the
specs of the H9.

Alan's comments about the H series and the Whitepaper were
considered and I then made my choice which I'm perfectly happy
with. I would just like to say that maybe some people feel like
Alan is too much of a Sony fan. Sometimes it would be nice when
there is an obvious problem for alan to say...there is a problem.
No camera is perfect and as someone who is clearly very experienced
in photography it would seem more reasonable to expect alan to
profess disappointment in a Sony camera but I'm yet to come across
this ( I may have missed it). A canon equivalant is "ljfinger" who
is also very experienced and technically v good but defends Canon
almost to a fault.

However, all the above is not an excuse for the juvenile
personality sniping that has been occuring. Its not worthy of such
a great site or of mature adults. If you have a problem with Alan
then saying so in a measured and diplomatic manner is far
preferable to childhood abuse. Also, while I recognise that people
love their cameras and their companies, demonstrating balance in
opinions is something we should all strive for and not just in
cameras.

Just my £0.02
Click to expand...
--
=~ AAK - http://www.aakatz.com
=~ Author of The White Paper
=~ http://www.aakatz.com/whitepaper
 
I always state that if they aren't happy, I give a refund. They have to ship it to me within 7 days and have shipping confirmation and insurance, stated clearly in my auction. I have never had anyone return anything to me.
--

Olympus E-300, 14-54mm, 40-150mm, 35mm Macro, Sunpak 383, Demb pro diffuser, 50mm 1.8
 
Sorry for any misunderstanding and I would hate to make my first contributions to this site to be over such a controversial matter. I do intend to get round to posting some pics when I get some time....been extremely busy but.....

Firstly, do I need to be a sony guy to contribute to this forum?? I spoke as someone who as I said has followed many of your posts over the past 18months initially over the H2 and H5 disucssions and more latterly over the H9 while deciding whether to go with Canon or Sony. I respect your opinions and paid them a great deal of service prior to making my belated choice. I have looked at your excellent Whitepaper as well.

My point was simply that as someone who is clearly very experienced and has a great deal of authority and respect on this site, you have many posts on the wonderful pictures that can be taken with the H9 but very few counterbalancing posts on its clear deficiencies (not none!!). That is my sole point and perhaps if there appeared to be more balance accusations that have been ringing out may have been muted (too optimistic to think they could have been avoided entirely).

I've enjoyed reading the sony posts as much as the Nikon, Panasonic and Olympus fora and hope that because I happen to own a canon camrea will not preclude me from doing so. I made no comment about the quality of the pictures or anything else ( I do not own the camera), just simply at the perceived lack of balance which I felt was at the heart of the issue. This is not to say that you haven't been doing lots behind the scenes but the appearance on this site is that we see the great pictures and positive posts but very few of the other side. Can you see how that may be taken as unbalanced??

Hope no offence was taken. I will hopefully post some pictures on the CANON forum but if you happen to come across them I would welcome your opinions as to what I could do to improve technique etc. The camera you happen to own is irrelevant.
 
you have lost it:)

for god sake drop this rant/link into the nikon forum and let someone who knows how to use the d200 show you where you are going wrong.or are they already sick of you over there.
talk about rabid.

spend more time with the d200 ,give yourself a chance to get to know it ,it,s not a point and shoot,and no the 18-200 isnt as good a lense as you think it is.
cheers

Ralph
AAK said:
That's why you call me a liar or a fool?

Well, sonyboy, my boy, there are things you don't know because
you've swallowed the marketing hype lock-stock and barrel - only
different marketing hype.

The Nikon D200 shipped with disastrous image quality issues... or
didn't you know that?

Like this hideous banding issue that required a trip back to Nikon:



You like 100% crops: Well here's one. Those horizontal stripes?
They're not in the subject, they're introduced by the camera. And
note something else? Green C/A and PF, too, from the
highly-regarded Nikkor 18-200 VR lens at $849 (more than the H9, of
course). Do I have H9 pictures that look a hell of a lot better
than this at 100%? You bet your A$$ I do!



My two D200s have gone back to Nikon 7 times in 1 1/2 years for
either image quality, autofocus, or (this last time) a faulty lens
mount.

And the IQ is so good just because it's a DSLR?

This time it's you who's the fanboy.

ISO 400 has chroma noise.
ISO 800 is a pretty bad mess
ISO 1600 is almost unusable.

But you're such an expert that you can call me a liar because of
claims I made about a camera (the D200) that you don't know
-anything- about and on which I've shot 40,000 frames?

BS.

You like to pixel-peep? How about this 200% crop of an ISO 250 shot
with the D200 - this went back to Nikon with one of my repairs:



Pretty, huh? They didn't fix it.

Maybe YOUR DSLR has an infinitely better high-ISO or even
medium-ISO IQ than the H-series, but my Nikon D200 assuredly does
not! Is it a little bit better? Yes, about 1 stop. Sometimes.

Here's a D200 ISO 320. Check out the hairline. And this was a flash
shot with the SB-800. Look at the clumped-up hair! Must be
compression, right? Or is it noise-reduction.

Neither. This is a RAW shot, no NR, ISO 320 and saved at Photoshop
level 12 JPEG compression:



Great image quality huh?

But I must be a liar, right?

Sometimes you just need to think a little bit before you call
people names. There's just the slightest possibility that you may
be wrong - or is that not in your lexicon? I guess you're perfect,
and anyone who disagrees with your perfection is a liar.

Have I gotten better pictures than these with the H5 and H9? You
bet your A$$.

Now let's see if you can deal with the truth. I seriously doubt it.
I'm not sure you'd recognize it.

PS: The D200 got a "highly recommended" rave review here. The H9
got an "above average".

Where do I see it all landing?

The H9 is not as bad as you make it out to be, for whatever your
agenda is.

And the D200, semi-pro DSLR is not as good.

So I must be a lousy photographer or a liar? Then why has Nikon
been trying to improve this garbage for more than a year?

You don't know everything.
SonyBoy said:
Seabear said:
When Alan says he is getting a higher percentage of keepers than
with previous cameras I see no reason to doubt that he is telling
the simple truth.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I just don't buy this story and not because it is Alan.
Even if Ansel Adams would have claimed to get sharper and better
photos with the H9 than with top of the rank Nikon or medium format
he worked with, he'd be either a liar or a lousy photographer.
I'm sorry but there is no such animal and if you would have some
experience with medium format like Alan claims to have, you would
have known that this is just can't be true.
I worked with medium format and I'm still keeping a Bronica ETRS
with 80mm lens that I use whenever I need extreme sharp technical
photos.
For daily work I usually use a 5d with some dedicated L lenses
which believe me, beats the H9 hands down. And yet, it doesn't even
come close to my medium format in terms of picture quality and
sharpness.

And now, someone comes and tells me that he gets sharper and better
photos with his H9 than with his medium format camera and I have to
take him seriously? Do you really understand how ridiculous this
statement is to put it mildly?
It is like someone tries to convince you that he can drive faster
with his Toyota Yaris than with his Ferrari. Would you also see no
reason to doubt that he is telling the simple truth? maybe, but in
that case he'd probably be a very lousy driver...
Cheers
SB
Click to expand...
--
=~ AAK - http://www.aakatz.com
=~ Author of The White Paper
=~ http://www.aakatz.com/whitepaper
Click to expand...
--

My Portfolio
http://www.ralphmeznar.com
' You don't know where your going till you know where you've been '
 
I would have no problem selling an H9 on ebay if I had one to sell. Why? Because there are plenty of buyers out there that are informed of the current reviews and still want one and would be pleased as punch to find a good deal on one on ebay. Different strokes for different folks. That's what makes the world go round.

I personally don't understand the comment that someone made about "what type of feedback would a buyer leave for a seller of an H9". I can't imagine holding a seller responsible for any design shortcomings of an item, just as I wouldn't praise a seller for a great technical design. To me, feedback is for the quality of the transaction and if the item I purchase is in the condition that it was stated to be.

I have to admit that your level of integrity must be very high for you to worry about the morality of selling your H9 to someone else. That's admirable. But there are likely people out there that really do want to purchase an H9 and perhaps can't afford it any other way than second hand. In that case, you are perhaps doing someone a favor.

It's just my 2 cents. Nothing more.
 
Alan,

First don't call me boy. I'm no bodies boy and as far as I have heard, slavery in the USA doesn't exist anymore.

Secondly, I didn't call you lier nor did I ever say you are a fool. If I did, show me where.

I gave Ansel Adams as an example and I although I can not prove it, I can bet with you that he would totally agree with me about what I said.

I still stand behind my comment which had triggered you because I still believe it is true and although you try to prove the contrary, deep inside you you know I was right.

It is true that I don't know the D200 although I believe that thousands of satisfied users can not be that wrong, but as in you original declaration, you also mentioned a medium format as being one of your camera that shows less sharpness and quality then the H9, I can perfectly refer to that one.

Also, you mentioned "some very high-end NIkon" I remember that in some posts, you called the d200 "a prosummer" so I guess you also had some other hight end Nikons which represented better quality than the D200.

But you are completely missing the main point. The argument wasn't about how bad is the D200. The issue was how good is the H9 compared to some very high-end NIkon and medium format cameras.

But anyway, this won't lead us anywhere. I just feel sorry you didn't post 100% crop of the H9 and that you were so aggressive to those who kindly asked for it.

And I have just one more question; Why you, as a professional photographer who is very unhappy with one of his working tools (D200) do not sell it and get yourself a better tool such as canon 5D for example, which has great hi ISO IQ and on top of that, an extremely low shutter noise that even shooting a string trio, wouldn't make anyone look badly at you... (not in the Andante of course)

SB
 
AAK said:
I've been bitching about the lack of fine compression since day 1.
Click to expand...
Yes, you have been. Unfortunately many people here are not getting the expected H- series results with the H9, and letting their emotions run all over their reasoning. Even more unfortunately, they're taking out their frustration on you, and overlooking the fact that you never stated the H9 is without flaws.

It's ironic that when everyone was happy with the H2 & 5, AAK's posts were like gold. I rarely saw any post challenging you on your thoughts, opinions and most importantly your experience with the H- series cameras.
Now, it's rare that I see anyone not challenging you with regards to the H9.

If people are getting drastically different results, then disagreement is fine and thoughtful discussions should be encouraged, but when emotions take the lead, anger follows, and that is not good for anyone.
AAK said:
I've been collecting anomalies from other H9 owners to present to
Sony in an effort to get a firmware update. I have spent more than
50 hours on the phone with Sony.

I have analyzed the internals of more than 200 H9 .jpgs. And I've
shot more than 5000 frames, so far.

I have spent infinitely more time and energies trying to address
the issues while those here with an agenda have done nothing but
wail and moan and call me names.

None of which will mean spit to Sony, but perhaps my efforts will.
Click to expand...
Alan, your work on this is greatly appreciated, and I hope that you continue to do all you can to get Sony to give us a firmware update.

--
JJ
 
I second this! AAK 's posts and pictures are one of the main reasons I daily visit STF. I definatly appreciate all his hard work. I have learned much from you, "Obeewan" Alan. :-)

Thanksagain for all your work, Alan!

-- Mercurycu
 
Maybe your D200 needed a repair or you were not using it correctly. I couldn't shoot an image like the ones you posted if I tried. The D200 is a great camera.

Don't know about the H9 but if you prefer it to the D200 then more power to you. I for one have never been happy with point & shoot digitals.

--

 
AAK said:
... you're only trying to help me, right?

That's why you call me a liar or a fool?

Well, sonyboy, my boy, there are things you don't know because
you've swallowed the marketing hype lock-stock and barrel - only
different marketing hype.

The Nikon D200 shipped with disastrous image quality issues... or
didn't you know that?

Like this hideous banding issue that required a trip back to Nikon:

Click to expand...
i would just like to say, it wasnt the banding that made that a boring photo.
 
I agree with Raimez on this,, the D200 is a semi pro DSLR which requires a bit of reading up,practice and slight tweaking of settings to get perfect results. As for High iso work I can happy use the D200 up to 800 no problem, at only 1600 does it show a bit if you dont nail the exposure right.

Also the 18-200 AFS is only a consumer lens (although it is very good) for excellent glass you are talking of: 28-70 AFS 2.8, 17-35 AFS 2.8, 70-200 AFS 2.8,etc.

If you are not happy sell your D200 and buy an excellent low light camera like 5d (even though body is nothing to ride home about).

Also The D200 & H9 are not in the same league as each other (although H9 seems relatively ok) nor could I state that the Canon Powershot A640 is much better than Canon 30d

--

 
AAK said:
... you're only trying to help me, right?

That's why you call me a liar or a fool?

Well, sonyboy, my boy, there are things you don't know because
you've swallowed the marketing hype lock-stock and barrel - only
different marketing hype.

The Nikon D200 shipped with disastrous image quality issues... or
didn't you know that?

Like this hideous banding issue that required a trip back to Nikon:



You like 100% crops: Well here's one. Those horizontal stripes?
They're not in the subject, they're introduced by the camera. And
note something else? Green C/A and PF, too, from the
highly-regarded Nikkor 18-200 VR lens at $849 (more than the H9, of
course). Do I have H9 pictures that look a hell of a lot better
than this at 100%? You bet your A$$ I do!



My two D200s have gone back to Nikon 7 times in 1 1/2 years for
either image quality, autofocus, or (this last time) a faulty lens
mount.

And the IQ is so good just because it's a DSLR?

This time it's you who's the fanboy.

ISO 400 has chroma noise.
ISO 800 is a pretty bad mess
ISO 1600 is almost unusable.

But you're such an expert that you can call me a liar because of
claims I made about a camera (the D200) that you don't know
-anything- about and on which I've shot 40,000 frames?

BS.

You like to pixel-peep? How about this 200% crop of an ISO 250 shot
with the D200 - this went back to Nikon with one of my repairs:



Pretty, huh? They didn't fix it.

Maybe YOUR DSLR has an infinitely better high-ISO or even
medium-ISO IQ than the H-series, but my Nikon D200 assuredly does
not! Is it a little bit better? Yes, about 1 stop. Sometimes.

Here's a D200 ISO 320. Check out the hairline. And this was a flash
shot with the SB-800. Look at the clumped-up hair! Must be
compression, right? Or is it noise-reduction.

Neither. This is a RAW shot, no NR, ISO 320 and saved at Photoshop
level 12 JPEG compression:



Great image quality huh?

But I must be a liar, right?

Sometimes you just need to think a little bit before you call
people names. There's just the slightest possibility that you may
be wrong - or is that not in your lexicon? I guess you're perfect,
and anyone who disagrees with your perfection is a liar.

Have I gotten better pictures than these with the H5 and H9? You
bet your A$$.

Now let's see if you can deal with the truth. I seriously doubt it.
I'm not sure you'd recognize it.

PS: The D200 got a "highly recommended" rave review here. The H9
got an "above average".

Where do I see it all landing?

The H9 is not as bad as you make it out to be, for whatever your
agenda is.

And the D200, semi-pro DSLR is not as good.

So I must be a lousy photographer or a liar? Then why has Nikon
been trying to improve this garbage for more than a year?

You don't know everything.
Click to expand...
Just for you all if you put your forefinger and thumb together then rub the thumb and forefinger together.

The sound you are hearing is the smallest violin in the world.

--

One's life is not measured by the two dates upon your tombstone, but how you lived the dash in between them
 
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