New Sony DSLR models preview in Toronto ,Canada

btw, i'm not saying 30D is not a fine camera now, it's still a fine one, but when something finer (supposingly) is coming up, i wouldn't wait a bit on whatever that's coming. and it seems both sony and canon will release something this summer end/fall (according to the Sony sales rep and Canon's 18 month cycle). i think it's worth the wait.
--
Canon 300D+BG-E2+Sigma EF500 Super
Tamron 18-80/2.8
Tamron 28-75/2.8
Sigma 70-200/2.8
Kenko 2x Teleconv modded to extension tube

Proud owner of Minolta X-700
24/2.8, 50/1.4, 135/2.8
 
This is in response to Tim's quite lengthy post (which I am not quoting in order to save space). First, thanks Tim for taking the time to put your thoughts in writing. I generally agree with what you have said, and where I might not it is not worth going into.

I am really ticked at KM for what it did to "us," (I don't ever expect to purchase a KM product in the future - not a laser printer, a copier, or anything else, no matter how good it is). I am sympathetic to the situation that Sony found itself in when KM withdrew from the photo business (thereby changing the terms of the working arrangement it created with Sony the previous summer). I have heard stories of how unprepared Sony was for how screwed up KM's operation was when it "took over." All the problems with parts availability are just one example. But, while I am sympathetic to the position in which Sony found itself, and understand, to a degree, what it has had to deal with to develop an entirely new product line in what is for it a new market segment, that does not alter the fact that I am working with a flawed camera system and the fixed have been too slow in coming. Additionally, there are any number of errors that I believe Sony has made that continue to affect its competitiveness in a negative way, and provide plenty of reason for concern about Sony's future direction. Sony no doubt knows a lot more about the DSLR market now than it did at the start of 2006. Whether it will put that knowledge to good use or not remains to be seen.

That it is already in danger of becoming a marginal player in the DSLR market is evidenced by the lack of any references to the A100 in reviews of the Nikon D40X, despite being in the same price range and arguably a far better value. Sony made a splash a year ago when it introduced the A100, and it got a nice bump in sales for the first couple of months, but then the competition came out with their 10 MP cameras, and the flaws in Sony's system became more apparent (high ISO noise, too expensive lenses, incomplete lens line-up for more serious photography interests, others). Moreover, Sony has done virtually nothing in the year since then to follow-up and keep the interest going. Indeed, the too-high prices of its lenses (mostly re-badged Minolta lenses) has had a negative effect on impressions of the Sony "system." It would be very interesting to see a chart tracking the sales of the A100 from its introduction through the present (but I doubt Sony would want such a chart, which likely has a downward trend line, to become public).

Perhaps Sony has something big up its sleeves for the coming months with the next camera (and lenses?) it will release. I can understand keeping some of the details secret. But even KM gave some info when it announced the 7D's development at the 2004 PMA show, along with showing a mock-up camera. The "potential" lens line-up might be good, but we don't really know what it is (what's the big secret on those specs?). If the new lenses will not have SSM focusing then I could see why Sony would not want to provide such information now, as it would likely drive even more people to leave the A mount. But if they will have SSM focusing, what's wrong with saying that (as Pentax did last fall at Photokina with its new high-end lenses)? Why not provide focal length and aperture information? It's not like Canon and Nikon don't already have similar lenses. Indeed, I would argue that providing such information could provide a reason for some people to stay, rather than switching because of an uncertain future. Knowing there will be a high quality 12-24/4 lens, or a good quality 70-200/4 or new 100-400 lens with SSM focusing, could be an inducement for some folks to stick around (note that I am picking these examples out of the ether - I have no knowledge what the new Sony lenses may be).

Sony has made any number of conscious decisions that have bewildered some of us, or have just left us speculating as to what it is doing, or what is has done, and why. Many of us have discussed these issues for far too long, yet here we remain. What's the matter with us? :-)

If Sony was concerned about quality control issues with the 7D, it hasn't exactly shined of its own accord. The CZ 16-80 has gotten a lot of bad word of mouth because of such problems. My A100 failed in cold weather on a trip in January, and the shutter release is now unreliable. I have had few problems with my 7D's (except the one that fell, which did require repairs), though others have. I don't have the sense that Sony's products have been any more or less reliable than Minolta's. Given all the bad press Sony has received of late (laptop battery problems, play-station, and others), it can ill afford to take to many wrong steps as it tries to enter the DSLR market.

Overall this has just been a far too frustrating experience. There is some potential for improvement over the horizon, but just how far off that horizon is we don't know, and whether I'm willing to continue to ride it out until we reach that horizon, I just don't know. I am truly hoping that Sony will do something on the one-year anniversary of the A100 launch (give or take a little), but don't expect it. I do expect I will be off to the local camera store to see if I can come to grips (pun intended) with the 1D Mk III.

--
Mark Van Bergh
 
The Toronto Sony event satisfied my needs, if not my curiosity.

What I needed was to see that Sony was committed to DSLRs and that they would market more aggressively than Minolta. I needed to get a sense of their sticking power.

I am satisfied.

The event was held at a trendy and photogenic place, The Distillery down along Front Street near the lake. Gave the event a more solid aura than if it had been held in the back room of some Sony store.

There were classes on wireless lighting setups with professional photographers giving explanations and answering questions, and professional models for us to photograph if we wished. There must have been 15 lenses to try out on our cameras. They had to pry the 300mm SSM from my hands. This was also the first time I'd ever handled the 70-200 SSM. Now I know what everyone has been talking about. I hadn't realized it was an internal zoom. The lens stays the same length from 70-200, unlike the Bigma that reaches into the next province.

And there was Joe from Tokyo (don't remember his last name). Spoke great English, and even though he said he was limited in what he could say, he did something even better - he listened. Even asked follow-up questions about what we felt we wanted in a camera system.

That was Saturday morning.

The afternoon before Sony had told me they could not find the repair parts to fix my Minolta 7Hi. They gave me an Alpha A100 instead. Of course I was thrilled.

Since I have the 7D I would never have bought an A100. But after using it for a couple of days, I'm beginning to wonder how much I'll use the 7D in future. The A100 is a sweet little camera.

So from now on I'll proudly be wearing my Saturday morning free gift - a black cap with the orange alpha symbol in front.
 
Can't say I disagree with what you have stated. I'm off to Singapore and Bankok next Jan.... One wy or the other, I will have a better camera than either the 7d or the a100

If this project comes to pass, then the choices get much more difficult :-)
Always a pleasure having a discussion with you, my friend!

Note, I am in total agreement about the KM thoughts. In fact the 7d and the a2 may be going on the block here shortly
Tim
 
Can't say I disagree with what you have stated. I'm off to
Singapore and Bankok next Jan.... One wy or the other, I will have
a better camera than either the 7d or the a100
At the Toronto Sony event, I asked one of the representatives if the next camera would be available for my vacation in July. Not likely.

I asked him about Christmas. Much more reassuring nods.

For what it's worth.
 
Sounds like in many ways this was like PMA.

I left PMA feeling the same. You leave knowing sony is serious, bringing good stuff. You got to see how nice stuff like the 70-200 is. And the Sony folk are really nice and interested in what one says. To me the various reps I talked to sounded like the really wanted to know what we wanted. One even asked what I'd like to see for accessories. He saw my camera bag and asked where it came from and if they should make those. When i brought up acra swiss brackets he took down info on them because he was curious. They arn't winging it, they are trying to do things right.

Glad you had a good time with the event.

I like you have a 7D and had been on the fence waiting, the A100 is no for me. But after going to PMA, I felt good about things.
 
Hi Mark,

Good exchanging views with you as always.

Good luck with the decision you will make in the months ahead. Been there before and I know how difficult it is. I think that the longer you postpone that decision the more options you will have down the road and make that decision easier to make. I love to see the D3X and of course a full-frame pro entry from Sony by next year.

What are you going to do with your long telephotos? If you are staying with Sony are you planning to get the 300/2.8 SSM. Man, I am glad I am not a wildlife shooter-----those lenses are very expensive.

I agree with you that as far as handling and user-friendliness, it is tough to beat the 7D. Having said that I was at a 'lost' when I was handed one during our joint shoot last winter as I was no longer familiar with it.

The buttons and dials of the 1D-series camera takes awhile to get used to Since Jan. 2006 I have about 37,000 actuations on my 1DIIN and if you ask me to do a 1-second test on how to switch from an Av setting into Manual, I might flunk it :-)

As to your difficulty with reading the symbols, I am more or less in the same situation. I realize that this could be a showstopper for some. I do wear my eyeglasses/prescription sunglasses on the field but had to take it off to read the info. and symbols. This is mostly do to my stubborness not to get bi-focals.

Since moving to Canon in the late summer of '05, I really don't miss AS. I shoot normally wide open and I have plenty to spare with shutter speed. For travel though, I have built-in IS through the SD700IS.

The 1DIIN is really a joy to use. The other day I asked the model to forget about posing and just goof around. I shot with AI Servo and shot at 8.5fps. Now I have tons of expressions to choose from. Last week I told the model to walk towards me and give me a bit of a swagger. Again I rattled a lot of shots using the 3fps this time. Afterwards we went to another location and I took some headshots. Silly me I forgot to switch back from AI Servo to One shot. No problem, all the shots were still in focus.

One thing about using Canon is that they lure you into going into their toll-booth of upgrades. They make these great products and after awhile they make it even better. Just pick up the new 580EX II and compare it with the 580EX and you will know what I mean. Another thing, I would love to see the much vaunted Nikon flash system against the 63-metering zone of the 1DIII and the aforementioned 580EX II. They do pick their spots in upgrades. Take a look at the 50/1.2 L which is 3x as much as the 50/1.4. They could have just improved the latter but they want to sell another premium lens. BTW, I was one of the 'lucky suckers' who bought the 50L-----it really is a fantastic lens :-)

Cheers,

José

--

It's an honour to take pictures of beautiful women with my 1DIIN and the portraiture lens grand sLam
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56/favorite_poses
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56/canon_1dmk2n
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56/canon_30and20d
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56/maxxum_7d
 
Hi Tim,

I think both of us agree on the Sony pro release. You probably thought I meant Photokina 2008 but I said PMA 2008 or March of next year. Again we are all speculating here but I figured they would release the high amateur on or before Sept. of this year.

Best wishes with the 'large job'. I could only imagine what it feels like to shoot with a Hassy or any MF camera. I think Mario Testino shoots with one, not sure if it is a Pentax.

Cheers,

José

--

It's an honour to take pictures of beautiful women with my 1DIIN and the portraiture lens grand sLam
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56/favorite_poses
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56/canon_1dmk2n
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56/canon_30and20d
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56/maxxum_7d
 
And there was Joe from Tokyo (don't remember his last name). Spoke
great English, and even though he said he was limited in what he
could say, he did something even better - he listened. Even asked
follow-up questions about what we felt we wanted in a camera system.
To me it's sad that Sony does not appear to be as interested in what we in the US think.

I envy Canada their influence, if there is any influence.

Did anyone rake them over the coals on the macro ringflash?

Walt
 
Hi Henry,

Yes the 1.3x sensor does not provide a lot of OEM super-wide angle lens options. If I was a landscape guy with the 1D, I will definitely pick up the 14L. For FF it is easy----either the 16-35/2.8 L II or 17-40/4 L.

José
At the same time, in terms of capability it plainly is a vastly
superior camera to the 7D, except in the area of image
stabilization. This past Friday night, while shooting a wedding
(for a photographer who is a Canon shooter), I was doing some
ambient light stuff with exposures as slow as 1/3 or 1/2 second
with the CZ 16-80 lens, mostly at the wider side of the focal
lengths. Most were sharp (not all, but then I did not expect all
of them to be). It would have been hard or impossible to do these
types of shots with a Mk III (the only option is the 24-105/4 IS
lens, which on the Mk III is the field of view equivalent of about
31-137, which is not as wide as the effective 24mm of the CZ lens
(16mm x 1.5x crop factor).
Other than the option of a 2nd body Canon 5D + 24-105mm f4 IS (very
expensive option) you could get a 30D + 17-55mm f2.8 IS. The one
weakness of the 1.3x sensor is with wide angle. Both full frame
and 1.6x sensors have several wide angle choices.

--
Henry Richardson
http://www.bakubo.com
--

It's an honour to take pictures of beautiful women with my 1DIIN and the portraiture lens grand sLam
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56/favorite_poses
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56/canon_1dmk2n
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56/canon_30and20d
http://www.pbase.com/jmb_56/maxxum_7d
 
Hi Tim,

I think both of us agree on the Sony pro release. You probably
thought I meant Photokina 2008 but I said PMA 2008 or March of next
year. Again we are all speculating here but I figured they would
release the high amateur on or before Sept. of this year.

Best wishes with the 'large job'. I could only imagine what it
feels like to shoot with a Hassy or any MF camera. I think Mario
Testino shoots with one, not sure if it is a Pentax.
You're correct, Jose! I got it wrong. My apologies! and how do you get the acent over te e in your name? I always feel guilty about not including it
 
Did anyone rake them over the coals on the macro ringflash?
They had a pro take a macro of some flowers using the ringflash,
then projected the image onto a Sony widescreen monitor.
Unfortunately for those wishing to rake coals, the shots turned out
pretty nicely.
Was this the Minolta ringflash? All they have is a non-flash LED light.

Walt
 
Hi Jose. The feeling is mutual.
Hi Mark,

Good exchanging views with you as always.

Good luck with the decision you will make in the months ahead. Been
there before and I know how difficult it is. I think that the
longer you postpone that decision the more options you will have
down the road and make that decision easier to make. I love to see
the D3X and of course a full-frame pro entry from Sony by next year.
That's certainly true, but it always will be the way technology changes in this digital era. I had originally anticipated making a decision following Photokina last September, but there was no relevant news. The 1D Mk III is certainly relevant news out of PMA. When Nikon will say something is anyone's guess, as it is for Sony. The only way Sony's FF camera (or near FF) will even enter the picture is if it remains in the game with the high-amateur model to come, and sooner rather than later.
What are you going to do with your long telephotos? If you are
staying with Sony are you planning to get the 300/2.8 SSM. Man, I
am glad I am not a wildlife shooter-----those lenses are very
expensive.
If I switch, I sell. 300/2.8 (old style but with the focus upgrade) and 600/4 (old style but with the focus upgrade). Also my 70-200/2.8 SSM, 17-35/3.5 G, CZ 16-80, 28-78/2.8, 24-85/3.5-4.5, 100/2.8 macro, 1.4x and 2.0x teleconverters, flashes, cords, etc. The whole kit and kaboodle. If I don't switch, that's an interesting question. I will wait to see what the new big telephoto is, but if its "only" a 400/2.8 I likely won't be interested, particularly if its price is as outrageous as the prices of the current SSM lenses.. The lack of anything longer than a 400, if that's what the new lens is (and I don't count the 500/8 mirror), is a serious issue (a 500/4, smaller, lighter and less expensive than a 400/2.8, would be a far better economic decision in my view, particularly given the existence of the 300/2.8, and a lens I would get in SSM design). I doubt I will spend over $5,500 for the 300/2.8 SSM, no matter how nice it is (and it is one sweet lens), but the price is outrageous and not justified by anything other than Sony's own views of what it can sell it for. So, for the time being I likely would stay put to see what happens. I could conceivably get a Canon 500/4 IS and body for the likely price Sony will charge for its new big telephoto, if the past is any indication.
The buttons and dials of the 1D-series camera takes awhile to get
used to Since Jan. 2006 I have about 37,000 actuations on my 1DIIN
and if you ask me to do a 1-second test on how to switch from an Av
setting into Manual, I might flunk it :-)
Canon shooters have simply gotten used to the 1 series design, which I think is the only reason Canon has not changed it - they don't want to rock the boat and create a new user interface that people have to learn, and that could cause confusion when shot next to the older interface (many pros have multiple bodies, to state the obvious).
As to your difficulty with reading the symbols, I am more or less
in the same situation. I realize that this could be a showstopper
for some. I do wear my eyeglasses/prescription sunglasses on the
field but had to take it off to read the info. and symbols. This is
mostly do to my stubborness not to get bi-focals.
I thought the rear LCD design of the 7D was a brilliant change from the tiny, too small top mounted LCD's. I still do not understand why some "reviewers" think this is a negative to the 7D (and 5D and A100). One reason I had laser surgery many years ago was to eliminate the need to wear contacts (or glasses) for everyday activities (including photography). Given the large number of "serious" shooters who are at the age where reading glasses are required to see things close up, I just don't understand why manufacturers continue to cram more and smaller information in those tiny top LCD's.

[continued in next post]

--
Mark Van Bergh
 
continued from previous post:
Since moving to Canon in the late summer of '05, I really don't
miss AS. I shoot normally wide open and I have plenty to spare with
shutter speed. For travel though, I have built-in IS through the
SD700IS.
For certain shooting situations it would not bother me either, particularly given that Canon has more IS lenses available that would address most of the focal lengths. But there are many where it could. There is nothing close to the relatively small and compact CZ 16-80 in terms of optical quality, focal length range, size and weight that is image stabilized. And nothing wider than 24mm, either in FF mode or APS-C (factoring in the crop factor for the effective field of view). While the superior high ISO noise characteristics of something like the Mk III helps, it is not always the optimum solution.
One thing about using Canon is that they lure you into going into
their toll-booth of upgrades. They make these great products and
after awhile they make it even better. Just pick up the new 580EX
II and compare it with the 580EX and you will know what I mean.
Another thing, I would love to see the much vaunted Nikon flash
system against the 63-metering zone of the 1DIII and the
aforementioned 580EX II. They do pick their spots in upgrades. Take
a look at the 50/1.2 L which is 3x as much as the 50/1.4. They
could have just improved the latter but they want to sell another
premium lens. BTW, I was one of the 'lucky suckers' who bought the
50L-----it really is a fantastic lens :-)
The price of the 580EX II is quite a bit higher than the flash it replaces. Even if the exposure capabilities of the Mk III's flash system are up to Nikon's standards, which remains to be seen, it still is not as flexible as the Nikon system, and requires the separate controller for wireless flash. On lenses, a Canon rep told me that one reason for the delay in the release of a new 1DS Mk III camera is that the lenses are not good enough. Canon is notorious for mediocre lens quality in its wide angles. One of the reasons for its new 16-35/2.8 lens. There is no doubt that Canon is more attuned to the need to upgrade certain products and does a better job of it than the others. Nikon's long glass is still waiting for VR.

I may have some problems with a switch to the Mk III, but they will not be slow AF, too slow shooting speeds, or high ISO noise, among other positive attributes of the camera and its supporting system.

--
Mark Van Bergh
 
That's the exact same question that I'm asking you. I'm reading your statement/comment, but I don't quite understand. So I asked you, "as far as?" What looks the same to you? You quoted part of my paragraph.
Bottomline, Sony is on track and time for a company that took over
Minolta and bringing back and adding stuff that we lacked.
Looks the same to me.
As far as?
Hmmm ... what are you asking here, LQ7, if anything? I can't tell,
sorry.
--
http://www.legacys-photo.com
 
Overall this has just been a far too frustrating experience.
You stand out as being very frustrated indeed, Mark. I wonder if you may simply have been too impatient? A lot of frustrations are born that way.

Take care.
 
Bottomline, Sony is on track and time for a company that took
over Minolta and bringing back and adding stuff that we lacked.
Looks the same to me.
As far as?
Hmmm ... what are you asking here, LQ7, if anything? I can't tell,
sorry.
That's the exact same question that I'm asking you. I'm reading
your statement/comment, but I don't quite understand. So I asked
you, "as far as?" What looks the same to you? You quoted part of my
paragraph.
I was simply supporting the view presented in the quote from your post, in my reading to some extent the conclusive part of your post.

I Hope this is ok with you - and if not, please don't hesitate to tell :)
 
The afternoon before Sony had told me they could not find the
repair parts to fix my Minolta 7Hi. They gave me an Alpha A100
instead. Of course I was thrilled.

Since I have the 7D I would never have bought an A100. But after
using it for a couple of days, I'm beginning to wonder how much
I'll use the 7D in future. The A100 is a sweet little camera.
Thanks for your report, Dennis. And congratulations with your new camera!

I wonder why so many posters are bitching about Sony's service policy...?
 

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