Answer this one question!

But, that test does not reflect real life usage of the lens. Who
takes pics where DOF is not in the equation? I mean, lots of
people don't think about DOF, but DOF is a factor in the pic,
pretty much every single time. Except for those that just take
pics of flat objects, such as brick walls. : )
Well, most cars are tested for all kinds of things but in real life
most people don't drive them at maximum speed or maximum cornering.
I'm missing your point.
We started talking about real life so I mentioned it.
I'll agree that the "brick wall test" is a good test, but you must
still stop the lens down 1 1/3 stops on the FF camera to make it
valid. However, the tests that you were saying were invalid, were
of books on a bookshelf, which is, of course, the same thing as
shooting a brick wall.
Invalid because two totally different lenses were used.
But if both lenses have equal performance, why do you feel that is
invalid? It is completely valid. Even if the lenses were not
equal, then, barring a defective lens, so be it. Whichever lens is
better speaks to the advantage of the format that lens is being
used on.
How do you know they have equal performance? They use different glass, different elements of glass, different groups of glass.
Does Corvette perform the same as Ferrari? They both are top sports cars.
I still don't understand why FF camera needs to be stopped down.
DOF is out so the same aperture should be used.
Because we are talking about equivalent images. DOF is not out
-- DOF is central . I mean, if you take DOF out of the equation,
you are taking f-ratio out of the equation, so I may as well just
put the camera on whatever f-ratio I please.
No you can't. It's like saying that you take pictures only at F11 because all your lenses perform their best at F11. Sure go ahead put them at F11 and it will invalidate all of the tests.
To that end, if you wish to compare the two systems at their
maximum sharpness, that is, set the f-ratio on each system to
whatever f-ratio delivers the best image, then I'll agree to that,
although by doing that, you are saying that all you care about is
sharpness, and that DOF is irrelevant to you, which, methinks, is
absurd.
Once again, in order for the test to be valid you need to eliminate all of the variables except for the test object. And in case of the lenses you can't set it at F11 because we all know that at this aperture corners will be sharp on both cameras. The best would be to use the lens at it's worst F-stop or in case of 16-35mm that would be F2.8.

But in real life while I am taking real pictures of course I would strongly consider DOF and FOV and everything else. That is what makes me better photographer. In fact I hardly use my 16-35mm at anything lower than F11 because I know the limitation of my lenses. In fact I can use at F5.6 and get acceptable results but I don't.

So the final point of mine would be, you can't compare real life to the test. In test you can drive Ferrari at 200mph in real life even if you could drive it that fast there are many variable that will prevent you from driving it that fast.
--
--joe

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/

Please feel free to criticize, make suggestions, and edit my
photos. If you wish to use any of my photos for any purpose other
than editing in these forums, please ask.
--
Eugene

The only time a smaller sensor with the same pixel count is superior to a larger sensor (aka higher pixel density) is when you are focal-length limited.

Lee Jay

 
Read my last post to Joe.

In order to make valid test (not real life) you need to eliminate all of the variables but the test subject. So, the lens has to be the same, focal length has to the same, aperture has to the same and everything else has to be the same including light. And you can't set the lens to it's optimum performance because you will be testing nothing.

The only difference is the sensor size. And that is your test subject. That is the only way I will except the test.

--
Eugene

The only time a smaller sensor with the same pixel count is superior to a larger sensor (aka higher pixel density) is when you are focal-length limited.

Lee Jay

 
Read my last post to Joe.
In order to make valid test (not real life) you need to eliminate
all of the variables but the test subject. So, the lens has to be
the same, focal length has to the same, aperture has to the same
and everything else has to be the same including light. And you
can't set the lens to it's optimum performance because you will be
testing nothing.
I agree. The aperture has to be the same. That means the f-stop will be different because the focal length is different!

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
But if both lenses have equal performance, why do you feel that is
invalid? It is completely valid. Even if the lenses were not
equal, then, barring a defective lens, so be it. Whichever lens is
better speaks to the advantage of the format that lens is being
used on.
How do you know they have equal performance? They use different
glass, different elements of glass, different groups of glass.
Does Corvette perform the same as Ferrari? They both are top sports
cars.
They don't have to be equal , they just have to be an honest pairing. For example, you wouldn't compare the 35 / 1.4L on 1.6x with 24-85 / 3.5-4.5 on FF, but it is fair to compare the 35 / 1.4L on 1.6x to the 50 / 1.4 on FF even though comparing against the 50 / 1.2L would be "more fair".

We are assuming, are we not, that we are comparing two different systems for the same tasks ? I sure am. I am not comparing the more shallow DOF of FF vs 1.6x in a test of IQ. I am not comparing the sizes and weights of the camera bodies and lenses, either, for an IQ test.

I am comparing the two systems as I would use them. When I used the 20D, I used a 35 / 1.4L a lot. I compare that against the 5D and the 50 / 1.4. Someone who uses the 17-55 / 2.8 IS on a 30D would compare that against a 24-105 / 4L IS on a 5D because that's what they would use for the same purpose on the other system.
Because we are talking about equivalent images. DOF is not out
-- DOF is central . I mean, if you take DOF out of the equation,
you are taking f-ratio out of the equation, so I may as well just
put the camera on whatever f-ratio I please.
No you can't. It's like saying that you take pictures only at F11
because all your lenses perform their best at F11. Sure go ahead
put them at F11 and it will invalidate all of the tests.
That was my point. I was being sarcastic.
To that end, if you wish to compare the two systems at their
maximum sharpness, that is, set the f-ratio on each system to
whatever f-ratio delivers the best image, then I'll agree to that,
although by doing that, you are saying that all you care about is
sharpness, and that DOF is irrelevant to you, which, methinks, is
absurd.
Once again, in order for the test to be valid you need to eliminate
all of the variables except for the test object.
No, no, and no. You need to compare equivalent systems.
The best would be to use the lens at it's worst F-stop or in case of
16-35mm that would be F2.8.
That's lunacy.
But in real life while I am taking real pictures of course I would
strongly consider DOF and FOV and everything else. That is what
makes me better photographer. In fact I hardly use my 16-35mm at
anything lower than F11 because I know the limitation of my lenses.
In fact I can use at F5.6 and get acceptable results but I don't.
Then you would be using a 10-22 / 3.5-4.5 on 1.6x at f / 8 and higher, and that's how you would compare the systems.
So the final point of mine would be, you can't compare real life to
the test. In test you can drive Ferrari at 200mph in real life even
if you could drive it that fast there are many variable that will
prevent you from driving it that fast.
A proper test should reflect real life performance, or what the hell is the point of the test?

I use my 16-35 / 2.8L on my 5D almost exclusively at f / 2.8. I cannot compare that to 1.6x -- there is no equivalent.

On the other hand, I use my 50 / 1.4 on my 5D a decent amount at f / 2 and f / 2.8. I can most certainly compare that to a 30D with a 35 / 1.4L at f / 1.4 and f / 1.8, because that's what I did in real life.

--
--joe

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/

Please feel free to criticize, make suggestions, and edit my photos. If you wish to use any of my photos for any purpose other than editing in these forums, please ask.
 
Everything has to be the same, the lens, aperture, F-stop, focal length etc...

The only difference for this particular test is the sensor size. And because we know that most lenses perform the best at smaller apertures (or large F-stop) we can't run this test at F11 for example. The best would be to run this test at wide open apertures that is where we find most of the flaws.

That is if are still talking about the test which determine if FF sensor suffers from corner sharpness as much as crop factor sensor. I say it suffers more if above conditions are met.
--
Eugene

The only time a smaller sensor with the same pixel count is superior to a larger sensor (aka higher pixel density) is when you are focal-length limited.

Lee Jay

 
But if both lenses have equal performance, why do you feel that is
invalid? It is completely valid. Even if the lenses were not
equal, then, barring a defective lens, so be it. Whichever lens is
better speaks to the advantage of the format that lens is being
used on.
How do you know they have equal performance? They use different
glass, different elements of glass, different groups of glass.
Does Corvette perform the same as Ferrari? They both are top sports
cars.
on> They don't have to be equal , they just have to be an honest
pairing. For example, you wouldn't compare the 35 / 1.4L on 1.6x
with 24-85 / 3.5-4.5 on FF, but it is fair to compare the 35 /
1.4L on 1.6x to the 50 / 1.4 on FF even though comparing against
the 50 / 1.2L would be "more fair".

We are assuming, are we not, that we are comparing two different
systems for the same tasks ? I sure am. I am not comparing the
more shallow DOF of FF vs 1.6x in a test of IQ. I am not comparing
the sizes and weights of the camera bodies and lenses, either, for
an IQ test.
In this case you can use whatever you want because you and only you determine equality between the systems.
I am comparing the two systems as I would use them. When I used
the 20D, I used a 35 / 1.4L a lot. I compare that against the 5D
and the 50 / 1.4. Someone who uses the 17-55 / 2.8 IS on a 30D
would compare that against a 24-105 / 4L IS on a 5D because that's
what they would use for the same purpose on the other system.
Because we are talking about equivalent images. DOF is not out
-- DOF is central . I mean, if you take DOF out of the equation,
you are taking f-ratio out of the equation, so I may as well just
put the camera on whatever f-ratio I please.
No you can't. It's like saying that you take pictures only at F11
because all your lenses perform their best at F11. Sure go ahead
put them at F11 and it will invalidate all of the tests.
That was my point. I was being sarcastic.
To that end, if you wish to compare the two systems at their
maximum sharpness, that is, set the f-ratio on each system to
whatever f-ratio delivers the best image, then I'll agree to that,
although by doing that, you are saying that all you care about is
sharpness, and that DOF is irrelevant to you, which, methinks, is
absurd.
Once again, in order for the test to be valid you need to eliminate
all of the variables except for the test object.
No, no, and no. You need to compare equivalent systems.
But only you say they are equivalent.
The best would be to use the lens at it's worst F-stop or in case of
16-35mm that would be F2.8.
That's lunacy.
No, not lunacy. For example: Take two cars like SUV and passenger car. Find freshly paved road. Can you honestly say which car has smoother ride? They both most likely will have similar ride. Now take both of them on to rough road and the passenger car most likely will have the best ride because most SUVs are build on truck chassis.

It is the same idea here. You don't set the same best conditions possible, you set the worst conditions possible to determine which one performs the best.
But in real life while I am taking real pictures of course I would
strongly consider DOF and FOV and everything else. That is what
makes me better photographer. In fact I hardly use my 16-35mm at
anything lower than F11 because I know the limitation of my lenses.
In fact I can use at F5.6 and get acceptable results but I don't.
Then you would be using a 10-22 / 3.5-4.5 on 1.6x at f / 8 and
higher, and that's how you would compare the systems.
I don't know what I be using. I might be using Sigma 12-24mm or Sigma 10-20mm. I actually did this comparison myself on my friend's XTi and found them to be the same.
So the final point of mine would be, you can't compare real life to
the test. In test you can drive Ferrari at 200mph in real life even
if you could drive it that fast there are many variable that will
prevent you from driving it that fast.
A proper test should reflect real life performance, or what the
hell is the point of the test?
How many people do you know who buys SUVs and actually drive off road? How many people buy Ferrari and drive 150Mph? I live in LA and know quite a few with both cars and all they do is drive 35Mph on the street.

My point is if you feel that this test works for it is fine with me.
It would not work for me.
I use my 16-35 / 2.8L on my 5D almost exclusively at f / 2.8. I
cannot compare that to 1.6x -- there is no equivalent.

On the other hand, I use my 50 / 1.4 on my 5D a decent amount at f
/ 2 and f / 2.8. I can most certainly compare that to a 30D with a
35 / 1.4L at f / 1.4 and f / 1.8, because that's what I did in real
life.
Like I said if it works for you it is fine with me. I only had 2 crop factors camera in my life and hated both of them. Both were Nikons D1/D1x.

I doubt very much if I would get 1.6x crop camera but I would consider 1.3x if it had higher resolution. 12MP to be exact.
--
--joe

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/

Please feel free to criticize, make suggestions, and edit my
photos. If you wish to use any of my photos for any purpose other
than editing in these forums, please ask.
--
Eugene

The only time a smaller sensor with the same pixel count is superior to a larger sensor (aka higher pixel density) is when you are focal-length limited.

Lee Jay

 
... relaxing the constraints on
optical quality by eliminating the need for them to be sharp to the
edges of the 35mm frame.
If they don't have to be sharp to the edges of the 35mm frame to be sharp to the edges of a crop frame, then the crop frame must not be seeing all the glass.

--
http://aminphoto.blogspot.com
 
Something went wrong with the post.. so my whole big point was lost.

Oh well I try again, short and sweet this time:

1. Cameras with smaller sensors have more DOF than cameras with
larger sensors
Yes
2. Sensor size does not in any way change DOF
Yes it does, as you say in your point #1
3. However, sensor size changes FOV at a given focal length,
meaning you need a shorter FL with a smaller sensor to have the
same FOV
Yes (given same distance to subject of course)
4. DOF is determined by focal length and distance to subject ONLY
No, DOF is governed by the circle of confusion which is a factor of the sensor size, focal length, distance to subject and aperture.

What is governed by focal length and distance to subject (only) is perspective - which is not the same thing as DOF.
5. since smaller sensor cameras have shorter focal lenghts for same
FOV as larger sensor cameras, you change the FL and thus you get
more DOF
Yes, but it is more complicated than that, that is only pert of the answer.
6. hence, sensor size has an INDIRECT impact on DOF

Hope that is helpful. My point being that there is nothing magical
about different sensor sizes, but that they change the FOV and if
you want a similar picture from the same position with cameras of
different sensor sizes (a pretty fair request I would think) then
you need to change some parameters (like FL) and that impacts other
parameters (like DOF).

Hope this is helpful to some :)
--
http://public.fotki.com/wibble/public_display/

 
Everything has to be the same, the lens, aperture, F-stop, focal
length etc...
The only difference for this particular test is the sensor size.
And, therefore, the field of view is different as well.

I don't think that's a particularly useful test.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
... relaxing the constraints on
optical quality by eliminating the need for them to be sharp to the
edges of the 35mm frame.
If they don't have to be sharp to the edges of the 35mm frame to be
sharp to the edges of a crop frame, then the crop frame must not be
seeing all the glass.
No, that doesn't follow.

--
Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
 
We are assuming, are we not, that we are comparing two different
systems for the same tasks ? I sure am. I am not comparing the
more shallow DOF of FF vs 1.6x in a test of IQ. I am not comparing
the sizes and weights of the camera bodies and lenses, either, for
an IQ test.
In this case you can use whatever you want because you and only you
determine equality between the systems.
Now that's being a bit silly, isn't it? Hand a person two photos, and ask them if they're the same. What will they notice? Perspective, framing, exposure, DOF, and probably color (but color is outside the scope of this comparison) will be first and foremost, followed by sharpness, noise, and vignetting.

For the purposes of my comparison, I am making keeping perspective, framing, exposure, and DOF equal.
No, no, and no. You need to compare equivalent systems.
But only you say they are equivalent.
I'm pretty sure my idea of equivalence is universal. Do you have a better alternative for equivalence?
The best would be to use the lens at it's worst F-stop or in case of
16-35mm that would be F2.8.
No, not lunacy. For example: Take two cars like SUV and passenger
car. Find freshly paved road. Can you honestly say which car has
smoother ride?
Yes.
They both most likely will have similar ride.
As FF and 1.6x produce similar pics.
Now take both of them on to rough road and the passenger car most
likely will have the best ride because most SUVs are build on truck
chassis.
Of course, because you have chosen a venue that favors the passenger car. But, in both cases, the cars were tested under equivalent conditions. Back to the cameras, it would be instructive to compare 1.6x and FF in the realm of landscape, macro, telephoto, etc., but in each and every case, the cameras would be tested for equivalent images.
It is the same idea here. You don't set the same best conditions
possible, you set the worst conditions possible to determine which
one performs the best.
No, you try all conditions. But in each case, you make sure you have equivalent settings. I mean, seriously, I don't get why you don't see the uselessness of your idea. You honestly think that a good way to compare cameras is to set them to the worst possible non-equivalent conditions to determine which performs the best? OK, how about we keep the lens caps on both and see which has more hot pixels? My worst beats your worst. : )
Then you would be using a 10-22 / 3.5-4.5 on 1.6x at f / 8 and
higher, and that's how you would compare the systems.
I don't know what I be using. I might be using Sigma 12-24mm or
Sigma 10-20mm. I actually did this comparison myself on my friend's
XTi and found them to be the same.
Fair enough. I accept that for sure. In fact, let's compare the 5D + 17-40 / 4L and 5D + 16-35 / 2.8L against a 1.6x DSLR with the 12-24, 10-20, 10-22, and 11-18 and see in which situations the 1.6x DSLR comes out ahead. But you perform the test with equivalent settings.

Don't even tell me that some fool is out there shooting with a 1.6x DSLR and 10-22 / 3.5-4.5 at 22mm, f / 5.6, and will grab a 5D and 16-35 / 2.8L at 35mm, f / 2.8 to shoot the same scene. If you know of such a person, please direct me to their picture gallery!
A proper test should reflect real life performance, or what the
hell is the point of the test?
How many people do you know who buys SUVs and actually drive off
road? How many people buy Ferrari and drive 150Mph? I live in LA
and know quite a few with both cars and all they do is drive 35Mph
on the street.
How many pics do you see with FF DSLRs that are of the same thing as pics with 1.6x DSLRs? I'll tell you -- all of them.
My point is if you feel that this test works for it is fine with me.
It would not work for me.
So, if you are out there with your 30D and 10-22, snapping away at 22mm, f / 8, and it breaks down, and I go, "Hey, Eugene, I'm not shooting now, go ahead and pop your CF card into my 5D" which is fitted with the 16-35 / 2.8L, tell me what settings your going to put the camera on.
I use my 16-35 / 2.8L on my 5D almost exclusively at f / 2.8. I
cannot compare that to 1.6x -- there is no equivalent.

On the other hand, I use my 50 / 1.4 on my 5D a decent amount at f
/ 2 and f / 2.8. I can most certainly compare that to a 30D with a
35 / 1.4L at f / 1.4 and f / 1.8, because that's what I did in real
life.
Like I said if it works for you it is fine with me. I only had 2
crop factors camera in my life and hated both of them. Both were
Nikons D1/D1x.
I doubt very much if I would get 1.6x crop camera but I would
consider 1.3x if it had higher resolution. 12MP to be exact.
Well, I owned, and loved the 20D. But the 5D is better. Why? It allows me more shallow DOF, and consequently much better noise performance, and it gives me more detail on the occasions I want the same DOF.

So, FF is better than 1.6x for me because it 1) let's me take pics I can't take with 1.6x, and 2) takes better pics than 1.6x for the types of pics 1.6x can do. Option 2 is what I am comparing here, and to do that fairly, you need equivalent conditions.

--
--joe

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/

Please feel free to criticize, make suggestions, and edit my photos. If you wish to use any of my photos for any purpose other than editing in these forums, please ask.
 
Thanks for an in-depth explanation.

I have read more than one thread about this subject on this BB.

Have any camera companies such as Canon or Nikon presented this information about this subject illustrating this conclusion?

This appears to be a logic argument using basic math as the total of the argument or position. I may be wrong in that analysis of your position. Tell me if I am.

How does chip development play into this? Is a crop chip developed 5 years ago as light sensitive as one developed today? Is the first FF chip as light sensitive as the one developed today? Does technology improvement in chip design change any of the conclusions, especially concerning light gathering ability?

Thanks

subroc
No, the focal lengths do not change. But a 24-70 lens on 1.6x will
give the exact same framing as a 38-112 lens on FF. Then lenses
are not the same, but the images the two lenses take on the two
different formats will have the same framing.

To get the same DOF, you will also have to use 1.6x the f-ratio for
the FF lens as well.

In other words, if I took a pic at 24mm, f / 2.8 on the 1.6x DSLR
and a pic a 38mm, f / 4.5 on the FF DSLR, of the same scene from
the same position , the two pics would look the same, in terms of
perspective, framining, and DOF.
Assuming the framing and DOF are as you describe, how does that
affect the light gathering ability of the f/2.8 on any camera, crop
or FF?
I'm glad you asked. : )

The light gathering ability of a camera for a given scene depends
only on the size of the aperture and how much of that light is
captured by the sensor. The aperture is determined by the FL
divided by the f-ratio.

For example, let's say we're at 24mm, f / 2.8 on a 1.6x DSLR. Most
of the light from the image circle from the lens falls outside the
sensor. The amount of light that does fall on the sensor is the
same amount of light as would fall on a FF sensor with a FL of 38mm
and an f-ratio of f / 4.5.

Thus, both sensors collect the same amount of light. However, the
FF sensor has 2.56 times the area as the 1.6x sensor, thus the
intensity of that light is 2.56 times less. So, to get the same
exposure, you either have to reduce the shutter speed by a factor
of 1.6 or multiply the ISO by a factor of 2.56, or some equivalent
inbetween combination.

But since both sensors receive the same amount of light, the noise
will be the same for both images.

So, to get an equivalent image for FF as for a 1.6x camera, use
1.6x the FL, 1.6x the f-ratio, and 2.56x the ISO (or divide the
shutter speed by 1.6).

The big bonus of FF is that, for the times that you can use the
lower shutter speed, and don't need to up the ISO since the shutter
speed is easily fast enough anyway, you get a cleaner and more
detailed image. Only in the worst case scenario when you have to
up the ISO accordingly do you get an equivalent image. But, even
then, you have the choice of having a more detailed image with more
noise, or an image with the same detail and same noise.

The reason you have those options is that the FF sensor has more
pixels than the 1.6x sensor. If the number of pixels were the
same, you'd always get the same detail, just with 1 1/3 stops less
noise. But, since the 5D has 50% more pixels, you only get a 2/3
stop noise improvement for the same ISO. When you up the f-ratio
and ISO to get the same DOF, shutter speed, and exposure, the 5D
image will actually have 2/3 stops more noise, along with its 50%
more pixels. However, if you then resample that image to the same
dimensions as the 1.6x image, you will have lost the detail
advantage, but regained the noise equivalency.

Does that make sense?

--
--joe

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/

Please feel free to criticize, make suggestions, and edit my
photos. If you wish to use any of my photos for any purpose other
than editing in these forums, please ask.
 
Also, I am curious as to what type of scene requires these parameters.
If I am using my 24-70 at f2.8 ISO1600 on a 30D so that I get
shutter speeds around 1/125 would it be wise for me to go full
frame?
The reason I asked the above question was because I like the DOF
(depth of field) I am getting in this one instance. If I went full
frame, then to get the DOF (what I want in focus) would require
going to f4.5 or so. Thus my shutter would drop to 1/60 or so
(which would be unacceptable for various reasons). Someone might
say to go to ISO3200 but that is also unacceptable at this time.
 
Okay, I see elsewhere that you have resoved your issue. Good luck.
 
My apology, I think I know where Joe is coming from now after reading the whole thread from the beginning to the end. The advantage is in the DOF of a FF over a 1.6x.
 
My apology, I think I know where Joe is coming from now after
reading the whole thread from the beginning to the end. The
advantage is in the DOF of a FF over a 1.6x.
This is very true, unfortunately for me when I am using a 30D with glass (24-70) at it's widest aperture f2.8 and using ISO1600 and getting a shutter speed of 1/125 Full Frame loses, unless ISO3200 on the 5D will look better. I don't know at this time if ISO3200 looks better than 30D ISO1600. But I won't do if it does for extra cost of the 5D, not worth to me AT THIS TIME, maybe later. We will se what ISO3200 looks like on the Mark III.
 
My apology, I think I know where Joe is coming from now after
reading the whole thread from the beginning to the end. The
advantage is in the DOF of a FF over a 1.6x.
FF has many advantages, not just more DOF control.
This is very true, unfortunately for me when I am using a 30D with
glass (24-70) at it's widest aperture f2.8 and using ISO1600 and
getting a shutter speed of 1/125 Full Frame loses, unless ISO3200
on the 5D will look better. I don't know at this time if ISO3200
looks better than 30D ISO1600. But I won't do if it does for extra
cost of the 5D, not worth to me AT THIS TIME, maybe later. We will
se what ISO3200 looks like on the Mark III.
Let me explain the options for your situation. But first, you must understand that there is no FF equivalent lens for what you're shooting on your 30D. The 24-70 / 2.8 on a 30D will behave as a 38-112 on a 5D.

Thus, to get the same FOV, you must sell that lens and buy another lens. Your best option is the 24-105 / 4L IS, since you will be able to keep the same DOF, but you will have to sacrifice some range on the long end.

Next, the 5D is 2/3 stops more noisy for the same DOF and equivalent ISO as 1.6x. That's because it has 50% more pixels. You must resample the 5D image to 8.2 MP (or use NR) to get the same noise performance for the same DOF. However, with FF, you have the choice of more noise with more detail, or the same noise with the same detail. But, the image, out of the box, will be 2/3 more noisy and have 25% more linear detail for the same DOF and equivalent ISO.

OK, that said, to get the same DOF and exposure on FF, you will have to shoot:

1) f / 4, 1/125, ISO 3200 (slightly less DOF)
2) f / 4.5, 1/100, ISO 3200 (same DOF, 1/3 stop slower shutter)
3) f / 4.5, 1/125, ISO 4000 (-1/3 ev on camera, +1/3 ev in post)

The differences in IQ between the 30D and any of the above scenarios will be minimal. In my opinion, it is simply not worth the move to FF for you on the basis of IQ.

On the other hand, the 5D + 24-105 / 4L IS gives you IS and a smaller and lighter lens that will deliver the same results. Couple that with the extra range on the wide end (24mm vs 38mm) and the loss of range on the long end (105mm vs 112mm). On the basis of features and ergonomics, the move to FF might be worthwhile.

However, it will come at the cost of the 5D body, which is around $2400, I believe. So, you will have to sell your 30D and 24-70 / 2.8L to get a 5D and 24-105 / 4L IS. The move will most likely cost you $1800 after all is said and done.

Is it worth it?

--
--joe

http://www.josephjamesphotography.com
http://www.pbase.com/joemama/

Please feel free to criticize, make suggestions, and edit my photos. If you wish to use any of my photos for any purpose other than editing in these forums, please ask.
 
if you taking picture of the continuous object like a brick wall.
--
Eugene

The only time a smaller sensor with the same pixel count is superior to a larger sensor (aka higher pixel density) is when you are focal-length limited.

Lee Jay

 
original point of testing corner sharpness between crop camera and FF.

If you want to test FOV, DOV, noise and everything else you can use whatever you want or have. But for the original test to determine if crop camera suffers as much as FF camera you need to eliminate all of the variables and different lenses are variables.

--
Eugene

The only time a smaller sensor with the same pixel count is superior to a larger sensor (aka higher pixel density) is when you are focal-length limited.

Lee Jay

 

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