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Doing Panoramas........

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I love your pictures!!!! They are just magnificint!!!

Am I corret in guessing that most of your panos are single row panos? The Kaidan head seems to be a great little head... but it is strickly for single rows...right? I see you can buy an attachment or buy a different head.

THANKS
--Hector Gomez, LC
 
Aloha
here is a pno of a fountain
not high res but took 7 images to do complete

pano is aorund 500k so will take a few to load if you are on a normal 56k dial up
anyway might give ya an idea
this was a stock stitch no touchup yet or tweaking the final pano
taken with a 990 in full frame fisheye.
fotosaccion said:
THANK YOU ALL FOR SOOOO MUCH GREAT IDEAS AND ADVICE!!!

Sorry it took me a while to post back... I am home sick... My
nephews decided to share what they had with me!!! OH WELL!!!

I am specifically trying to do a multi-row pano of the front of a
building but the catch is that there is a fountain in front that I
am trying to get in the shot.... Let me see if I post a picture of
it so you can get an idea of what I m trying to do.... From what I
have read... I will definitely need a pano head because the
fountain is close to the lens.

My first attempt I shot in vertical position and just tried a 2X2
pano.... but now that I look at it... the problem is the
fountain...!!!! I guess it is time to invest in some more
equipment!! I think PANOS are EXTREMELY adictive!!!

Let me get a single shot of the area I am trying to do a pano with
and that will clarify what I am wanting to do..... I have never
posted anything here.... so it should be interesting what comments
I get back.... It's all good since it makes me a better
photographer......

Thanks for all the good advice!!!!!
--
Hector Gomez, LC
Click to expand...
--Chad Dwww.panotools.comwww.happyfish.com
 
Aloha
yeah figured that is what ya meant

if the fountain is a steady one ? not a bubbling whatever one they stitch together quite well
even taking beach shots if you follow a pattern pretty hard to tell
;)
have a good one ;)
fotosaccion said:
Thanks for all the info.... I will be postin pics soon!!!
Honu said:
Sorry ;)
went to preview and hit the wrong button

http://www.panotools.com/test/wailea_kealani_08-1copy.htm

--
Chad D
http://www.panotools.com
http://www.happyfish.com
Click to expand...
--
Hector Gomez, LC
Click to expand...
--Chad Dwww.panotools.comwww.happyfish.com
 
Others have given lots of good information. Just wanted to
say I've been happy with Panovue Image Assembler. Has a pretty
good rating on panoguide site. It's one of the few that handles
the case where camera is tilted up or down. Has a mode where
you give tell it matching points in two or three shots and it figures
out focal length and tilt angle to input when stitching the whole set.
This function also sittches those two or three images, so when you
only need to stitch 2 or 3 that is all you need. So when you just
want to simulate a fairly wide angle lens (very useful given D30's
1.6 factor) you can just take 2 or 3 shots and the program will
stitch them without much effort. The program also does a pretty
good job of adjusting exposure, so you don't have to lock
exposure across all the shots. This is a big advantage where there
is a large range of brightness over the series of shots.

It is supposed to be able to handle multi row panos, but I haven't
tried that yet.

Costs about $65 (as I recall). You can download it from the net.
  • Karl
 
Quick question for you all, what lens do you like for panos and multi rows?

Thanks to all for the great info

DJM
Karl Gohl said:
Others have given lots of good information. Just wanted to
say I've been happy with Panovue Image Assembler. Has a pretty
good rating on panoguide site. It's one of the few that handles
the case where camera is tilted up or down. Has a mode where
you give tell it matching points in two or three shots and it figures
out focal length and tilt angle to input when stitching the whole set.
This function also sittches those two or three images, so when you
only need to stitch 2 or 3 that is all you need. So when you just
want to simulate a fairly wide angle lens (very useful given D30's
1.6 factor) you can just take 2 or 3 shots and the program will
stitch them without much effort. The program also does a pretty
good job of adjusting exposure, so you don't have to lock
exposure across all the shots. This is a big advantage where there
is a large range of brightness over the series of shots.

It is supposed to be able to handle multi row panos, but I haven't
tried that yet.

Costs about $65 (as I recall). You can download it from the net.
  • Karl
Click to expand...
 
The lenses I use most are a 50mm/1.8 and a 105mm. Occasionally I use a 35mm, but in that case I have to correct distortion in all of the shots prior to stitching. The titles in my multi-row mosaic galleries tell which lens is used.

Brian
David James Miller said:
Quick question for you all, what lens do you like for panos and
multi rows?

Thanks to all for the great info

DJM
Click to expand...
--J. Brian Caldwellwww.caldwellphotographic.com
 
David James Miller said:
Quick question for you all, what lens do you like for panos and
multi rows?
Click to expand...
Hi David,

It varies by situation but generally I think you can probably get away with 28mm focal length equivalent for outdoors. Indoors you're going to need something much wider. I shoot a lot of architectural interiors, mostly luxury condos, and when my clients ask for VR as well, I always do it on film with my 20-35mm then scan to Photo CD. Even so, at 20mm it's a tight fit - as in it provides limited cropping possibilities for the Art Director. For rooms with cathedral ceilings or loft-style condos I borrow a friend's 16-35mmL lens. Again I shoot it w/film so you'd have to work out the digital equivalent. Would love to get my hands on a 14mm rectilinear just see what it does!

Slightly off topic but while I'm posting to you I thought I'd throw it out there...

I've noticed a few people mentioned that people should avoid having objects to close to the camera when shooting panos. I've never really found this to be a problem. As any interiors shooter knows, placing objects close to the camera creates a sense of depth in the photograph so I've never varied my style for my VR work and have had no problems.

Perhaps it's MGI's software. But I think it has more to do with finding the nodal point of the lens as I indicated in a previous post.

I just thought of a good way to illustrate the importance of this - can't claim authorship as I think I saw it on an early APPLE demo video about shooting VR. You can do it now at your computer.

Hold your arm out with one finger raised, and sighting through one eye, line it up with an upright in the room you are in... a doorframe, corner of the room ... now still looking through one eye, turn your head from side to side. See how your finger moves in relation to the upright in the background? This is because the nodal point in your eye, the point at which the image flips from right side up to upside down, is way out in front of the point of rotation, your spine.

This shows the importance of placing your lens nodal point directly over the point of rotation. Doing so will largely eliminate this problem and ensure, for instance, that the coffe table in the foreground will not move in relation to the furniture grouping in the middle distance or the fireplace and wall in the background.

Having said all that though, I should add that the importance of nodal placement diminshes if there is no foreground detail in the shot. Many of the panoramas on our site were done hand-held with just a bubble level in the hot shoe to act as a guide. In fact the home page shot for this week - a last minute sustitution as the location we originally had in mind was snowed in, it's actually a family shot of my daughter's choir - was shot handheld, 28mm on the Pro 70. I did two passes, 5 shots per pano, slightly under 180 degree angle of view. Only minor retouching and contrast masking required
Hope this helps,

Doug B
http://www.torontowide.com
 
Thanks Doug very interesting. Let me qualify my question about lenses a little more. If I want to shoot outdoor panos and multi rows what lens would be best and create less problems with barrel and or perspective distortion?

Thanks

DJM
Doug B said:
David James Miller said:
Quick question for you all, what lens do you like for panos and
multi rows?
Click to expand...
Hi David,

It varies by situation but generally I think you can probably get
away with 28mm focal length equivalent for outdoors. Indoors you're
going to need something much wider. I shoot a lot of architectural
interiors, mostly luxury condos, and when my clients ask for VR as
well, I always do it on film with my 20-35mm then scan to Photo CD.
Even so, at 20mm it's a tight fit - as in it provides limited
cropping possibilities for the Art Director. For rooms with
cathedral ceilings or loft-style condos I borrow a friend's
16-35mmL lens. Again I shoot it w/film so you'd have to work out
the digital equivalent. Would love to get my hands on a 14mm
rectilinear just see what it does!
Slightly off topic but while I'm posting to you I thought I'd throw
it out there...
I've noticed a few people mentioned that people should avoid having
objects to close to the camera when shooting panos. I've never
really found this to be a problem. As any interiors shooter knows,
placing objects close to the camera creates a sense of depth in the
photograph so I've never varied my style for my VR work and have
had no problems.
Perhaps it's MGI's software. But I think it has more to do with
finding the nodal point of the lens as I indicated in a previous
post.
I just thought of a good way to illustrate the importance of this -
can't claim authorship as I think I saw it on an early APPLE demo
video about shooting VR. You can do it now at your computer.
Hold your arm out with one finger raised, and sighting through one
eye, line it up with an upright in the room you are in... a
doorframe, corner of the room ... now still looking through one
eye, turn your head from side to side. See how your finger moves in
relation to the upright in the background? This is because the
nodal point in your eye, the point at which the image flips from
right side up to upside down, is way out in front of the point of
rotation, your spine.
This shows the importance of placing your lens nodal point directly
over the point of rotation. Doing so will largely eliminate this
problem and ensure, for instance, that the coffe table in the
foreground will not move in relation to the furniture grouping in
the middle distance or the fireplace and wall in the background.
Having said all that though, I should add that the importance of
nodal placement diminshes if there is no foreground detail in the
shot. Many of the panoramas on our site were done hand-held with
just a bubble level in the hot shoe to act as a guide. In fact the
home page shot for this week - a last minute sustitution as the
location we originally had in mind was snowed in, it's actually a
family shot of my daughter's choir - was shot handheld, 28mm on the
Pro 70. I did two passes, 5 shots per pano, slightly under 180
degree angle of view. Only minor retouching and contrast masking
required
Hope this helps,

Doug B
http://www.torontowide.com
Click to expand...
 
David James Miller wrote:
. If I want to shoot outdoor panos and multi
djm80364 said:
rows what lens would be best and create less problems with barrel
and or perspective distortion?
Click to expand...
David,

The longest focal length you can get away with. The shorter the lens the more distortion.

Don't really know anything about multi row panos, never done one. I would assume the same holds true though.

Doug B
Torontowide.com
 
Thanks thats what I figured

Dave
Doug B said:
Doug Brown said:
rows what lens would be best and create less problems with barrel
and or perspective distortion?
Click to expand...
David,
The longest focal length you can get away with. The shorter the
lens the more distortion.
Don't really know anything about multi row panos, never done one. I
would assume the same holds true though.

Doug B
Torontowide.com
Click to expand...
 
I use the Kaidan KIWI+ Spherical tripod head with leveler and Realviz Stitcher software. This combination, while expensive, gives excellent results with multirow, as well any other type of panorama, including various spherical types. While Realviz not as versatile as Panorana Tools since all the images must be rectilinear, and the same size, it is very intuitive and much easier to use than Panorama Tools so gives a more productive workflow.

jack
fotosaccion said:
I own a Canon 1D and am wanting to do some multi-frame panoramics
and stitching but I am not sure what I am doing. It appears that I
have to have aPANORAMIC head to do it right? Am I correct in this
assesment? I took some images last night and attempted to stitch
them together and I got mixed results. My lines were not straight
and I could not seem to get it right. If indeed I do need a pano
head....WHO's????? I've looked on the web at Kaidan, manfrotto and
Peace river studios...... What do most of you use and why??? I
also need to know if I want to do multi row panos.... I am limited
to the Kaidan??? Do most of you only do single row panos??? It is
a considerable price increase in the myulti row arena....

Any advice will be GREATLY appreciated
--
Hector Gomez, LC
Click to expand...
 
I have also been looking into a spherical tripod head for panoramas. I looked at the Kaidan KIWI+ Spherical but it looks like it is for small digital cameras. Do you know if it will support a D30 with something like a 50mm lens? What type of camera are you using?

Terry Deadwyler
jack stephens said:
jack
fotosaccion said:
I own a Canon 1D and am wanting to do some multi-frame panoramics
and stitching but I am not sure what I am doing. It appears that I
have to have aPANORAMIC head to do it right? Am I correct in this
assesment? I took some images last night and attempted to stitch
them together and I got mixed results. My lines were not straight
and I could not seem to get it right. If indeed I do need a pano
head....WHO's????? I've looked on the web at Kaidan, manfrotto and
Peace river studios...... What do most of you use and why??? I
also need to know if I want to do multi row panos.... I am limited
to the Kaidan??? Do most of you only do single row panos??? It is
a considerable price increase in the myulti row arena....

Any advice will be GREATLY appreciated
--
Hector Gomez, LC
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
brian said:
I bought the Kaidan Spherical head, and have never regretted it.
Click to expand...
As I am also interested in the Kaidan Spherical head,
I would appreciate some more detailed comment!
  • On which base do you use the Kaidan Spherical head,
Kiwi, Quickpan, Manfrotto, or PeaceRiver?
  • I own the first release of the Kiwi-L, and the rotating
bar is a bit loose on the axis (1-2 degrees vertically),
how precise is your Kaidan?
  • How much weight will the spherical elevation bracket
hold (I intend to use the D60 with maybe a Sigma 14mm)?
How precise is it?
  • Whats the maximal distance between Tripod mount point
and Nodal point, that the spherical elevation bracket
allows?

Thanks in advance for any answers!

Greetings,

--Robert F. Tobler http://ray.cg.tuwien.ac.at/rft/Photography/
 
David,

First, "perspective distortion" is not a function of the lens. It is s function of the relative distances of the objects to the camera. People sometimes think/say that a wider angle lens has more perspective distortion, BUT this is because to get the subject(s) the same size in the viewfinder, they MOVE CLOSER thus changing the distance.

Generally wider angle lenses tend to barrel distort. With zooms the wide end generally barrel distorts more at the wide end and pincussion distort at the tele end. Generally a good prime will distort less that a zoom. Most of the newer pano software supports dealing with a little barrel distortion in the lens.

I'm far from an expert on Panorama and was somewhat tong-in-cheek with my "real men don't use tripods . . ." I like working the photos in Photoshop, but if I were going to take a lot of Panorama's (something I am considering) I would use a Pano head. Also as Doug pointed out, if you are going to have any foreground objects you really need one (and if you want everything in focus you need to stop down).

There are a few other things that I have learned. While it may be obvious to some, you can often avoid needing/wanting to shoot multiple rows by having the camera in "Portrait Mode" (which is the default orientation for many of the Pano heads). This is how I shot the hand held panorama that I posted.

When you rotate the camera, you are creating a "piece-wise linear curve image plane." This causes a different visual effect than using a wider angle lens which tries (less barrel distortion) to project on a flat image plane (as opposed to a QT image). The obvious effect you see in many panoramas of say a constant height subject like a wall is that it get taller in the center and shorter on both ends (and bulges in the center). How much of this effect you get is a function of relative distances and the angle you turn the lens. If you want a flat image like it was take with a wider angle lens, you are better off to get as far back as you can and use a more telephoto lens and turn the camera through less angle (often times this is not possible also per my first paragraph the “perspective effects” will be different). The more the camera rotates between shots the more extreme the differences will be and thus the harder to blend well (since the image plane was turned more).

Karl
David James Miller said:
Thanks Doug very interesting. Let me qualify my question about
lenses a little more. If I want to shoot outdoor panos and multi
rows what lens would be best and create less problems with barrel
and or perspective distortion?

Thanks

DJM--Karl
Click to expand...
 
Robert:

I use the QuickPan Spherical, and it comes with its own azimuth rotation base. I ordered it with one of the higher density click-stop wheels because I tend to shoot with long lenses to get ultra-high resolution "normal" photographs rather than the full 360 degree type panoramas. The QuickPan Base has 3 leveling adjustment screws, and these work quite well.

The upper portion that has the elevation rotation is reasonably sturdy. I use it with a Nikon D1x camera, often with a 17-35 AFS lens, which is a pretty heavy combination. The elevation rotation clutch has never slipped on me. With Nikon D1x and heavy lens attached the whole thing will shake somewhat if you touch it, but it doesn't slip. I normally use an infrared remote release to mimimize any camera shake. I can envision a sturdier design, but the weight would probably increase dramatically.

I get a precision of about 0.5mm in locating and maintaining the nodal point, which is completely adequate for all of my needs. Each lens needs to be separately calibrated, of course.

When shooting mosaics I can always get the yaw and pitch angles to within a degree. Not enough for a seamless stitch without optimization, but close enough for Panorama Tools to zero-in on the actual values with extreme precision (typically around 0.15 pixel average error).

I don't have a figure handy on the distance from the tripod mount to the nodal point location, but its on the order of 6-10 inches. I've used all types of lenses ranging from my 15mm and 17-35 wideangles up to a 180/2.8 telephoto and 500/8 reflex telephoto without running into any mechanical interferences. The Kaidan website might have the detailed specs.

This head will work extremely well for the D60/14mm Sigma combination you mention. My D1x/15mm combination is heavier and bulkier, and it works fine.

Brian
Robert F. Tobler said:
brian said:
I bought the Kaidan Spherical head, and have never regretted it.
Click to expand...
As I am also interested in the Kaidan Spherical head,
I would appreciate some more detailed comment!
  • On which base do you use the Kaidan Spherical head,
Kiwi, Quickpan, Manfrotto, or PeaceRiver?
  • I own the first release of the Kiwi-L, and the rotating
bar is a bit loose on the axis (1-2 degrees vertically),
how precise is your Kaidan?
  • How much weight will the spherical elevation bracket
hold (I intend to use the D60 with maybe a Sigma 14mm)?
How precise is it?
  • Whats the maximal distance between Tripod mount point
and Nodal point, that the spherical elevation bracket
allows?

Thanks in advance for any answers!

Greetings,

--
Robert F. Tobler
http://ray.cg.tuwien.ac.at/rft/Photography/
Click to expand...
--J. Brian Caldwellwww.caldwellphotographic.com
 
Hi Karl:

With proper stitching a multi-image mosaic taken by pointing the lens in different directions can be absolutely mathematically identical to a rectilinear image taken in a single shot with a wider angle lens.

On second thought, there is at least one difference: the stitched image will have little or no illumination falloff. Also, the stitched image will have a much higher resolution, of course.

Brian
Karlg said:
First, "perspective distortion" is not a function of the lens. It
is s function of the relative distances of the objects to the
camera. People sometimes think/say that a wider angle lens has
more perspective distortion, BUT this is because to get the
subject(s) the same size in the viewfinder, they MOVE CLOSER thus
changing the distance.

Generally wider angle lenses tend to barrel distort. With zooms
the wide end generally barrel distorts more at the wide end and
pincussion distort at the tele end. Generally a good prime will
distort less that a zoom. Most of the newer pano software supports
dealing with a little barrel distortion in the lens.

I'm far from an expert on Panorama and was somewhat tong-in-cheek
with my "real men don't use tripods . . ." I like working the
photos in Photoshop, but if I were going to take a lot of
Panorama's (something I am considering) I would use a Pano head.
Also as Doug pointed out, if you are going to have any foreground
objects you really need one (and if you want everything in focus
you need to stop down).

There are a few other things that I have learned. While it may be
obvious to some, you can often avoid needing/wanting to shoot
multiple rows by having the camera in "Portrait Mode" (which is the
default orientation for many of the Pano heads). This is how I
shot the hand held panorama that I posted.

When you rotate the camera, you are creating a "piece-wise linear
curve image plane." This causes a different visual effect than
using a wider angle lens which tries (less barrel distortion) to
project on a flat image plane (as opposed to a QT image). The
obvious effect you see in many panoramas of say a constant height
subject like a wall is that it get taller in the center and shorter
on both ends (and bulges in the center). How much of this effect
you get is a function of relative distances and the angle you turn
the lens. If you want a flat image like it was take with a wider
angle lens, you are better off to get as far back as you can and
use a more telephoto lens and turn the camera through less angle
(often times this is not possible also per my first paragraph the
“perspective effects” will be different). The more the camera
rotates between shots the more extreme the differences will be and
thus the harder to blend well (since the image plane was turned
more).

Karl
David James Miller said:
Thanks Doug very interesting. Let me qualify my question about
lenses a little more. If I want to shoot outdoor panos and multi
rows what lens would be best and create less problems with barrel
and or perspective distortion?

Thanks

DJM
Click to expand...
--
Karl
Click to expand...
--J. Brian Caldwellwww.caldwellphotographic.com
 
David:

A slow 50mm lens generally has almost zero distortion, and is thus a very good lens for shooting panoramas. The f/1.4 50's and nearly every wideangle lens on the market have noticeable barrel distortion. However, it is not hard to pre-correct the distortion in each shot prior to stitching: http://www.caldwellphotographic.com/TutorialsDistortionAndColorFringing.html

Correcting distortion in this way is a routine part of my workflow.

Panorama Tools allows you to correct distortion during stitching, but I find that this can sometimes lead to bizzare and unexpected results, so I always carefully correct each image before hand using pre-determined calibration coefficients.

Brian
David James Miller said:
Thanks

DJM
Doug B said:
David James Miller said:
Quick question for you all, what lens do you like for panos and
multi rows?
Click to expand...
Hi David,

It varies by situation but generally I think you can probably get
away with 28mm focal length equivalent for outdoors. Indoors you're
going to need something much wider. I shoot a lot of architectural
interiors, mostly luxury condos, and when my clients ask for VR as
well, I always do it on film with my 20-35mm then scan to Photo CD.
Even so, at 20mm it's a tight fit - as in it provides limited
cropping possibilities for the Art Director. For rooms with
cathedral ceilings or loft-style condos I borrow a friend's
16-35mmL lens. Again I shoot it w/film so you'd have to work out
the digital equivalent. Would love to get my hands on a 14mm
rectilinear just see what it does!
Slightly off topic but while I'm posting to you I thought I'd throw
it out there...
I've noticed a few people mentioned that people should avoid having
objects to close to the camera when shooting panos. I've never
really found this to be a problem. As any interiors shooter knows,
placing objects close to the camera creates a sense of depth in the
photograph so I've never varied my style for my VR work and have
had no problems.
Perhaps it's MGI's software. But I think it has more to do with
finding the nodal point of the lens as I indicated in a previous
post.
I just thought of a good way to illustrate the importance of this -
can't claim authorship as I think I saw it on an early APPLE demo
video about shooting VR. You can do it now at your computer.
Hold your arm out with one finger raised, and sighting through one
eye, line it up with an upright in the room you are in... a
doorframe, corner of the room ... now still looking through one
eye, turn your head from side to side. See how your finger moves in
relation to the upright in the background? This is because the
nodal point in your eye, the point at which the image flips from
right side up to upside down, is way out in front of the point of
rotation, your spine.
This shows the importance of placing your lens nodal point directly
over the point of rotation. Doing so will largely eliminate this
problem and ensure, for instance, that the coffe table in the
foreground will not move in relation to the furniture grouping in
the middle distance or the fireplace and wall in the background.
Having said all that though, I should add that the importance of
nodal placement diminshes if there is no foreground detail in the
shot. Many of the panoramas on our site were done hand-held with
just a bubble level in the hot shoe to act as a guide. In fact the
home page shot for this week - a last minute sustitution as the
location we originally had in mind was snowed in, it's actually a
family shot of my daughter's choir - was shot handheld, 28mm on the
Pro 70. I did two passes, 5 shots per pano, slightly under 180
degree angle of view. Only minor retouching and contrast masking
required
Hope this helps,

Doug B
http://www.torontowide.com
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--J. Brian Caldwellwww.caldwellphotographic.com
 
fotosaccion said:
I own a Canon 1D and am wanting to do some multi-frame panoramics
and stitching but I am not sure what I am doing. It appears that I
have to have aPANORAMIC head to do it right?
Click to expand...
I've always used the Kaidan ones. We've just bought their rig for doing sphericals.
fotosaccion said:
Am I correct in this
assesment? I took some images last night and attempted to stitch
them together and I got mixed results. My lines were not straight
and I could not seem to get it right. If indeed I do need a pano
head....WHO's????? I've looked on the web at Kaidan, manfrotto and
Peace river studios...... What do most of you use and why???
Click to expand...
fotosaccion said:
I also need to know if I want to do multi row panos.... I am limited
to the Kaidan??? Do most of you only do single row panos???
Click to expand...
That's all I've been doing until recently.
fotosaccion said:
It is
a considerable price increase in the myulti row arena....
Click to expand...
For our work, see:
http://met.open.ac.uk/met_vr/met_vr.html

...although its now rather up to date - we've not put any of our spherical stuff up yet.

Incidentally I've been using a Sigma 14mm f3.5 (the older model) on my D30 but of course you loose a lot of the coverage because of the cropping. I've recently bought a Canon 15mm fisheye but have not yet tried using it for QTVR yet (of course I have to remove the distortion first).

Chris.
-- http://www.hockeyphotos.com/
 
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