Since the Foveon image sensor only contains 3.4 M spatially unique sampling pixels, it is complete nonsense and a mockery of the published guidelines to claim that the chip has 10.3 M pixels. To do so is akin to saying that the imaging area of a 35mm frame is actually 24mm x 36mm x 3 (3 layers of emulsion), or equivalent to 51 mm x 51 mm, a size which is comparable to the dimensions of medium format. That's just absurd!
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Foveon news article is complete nonsense!
- Thread starter Berg Na
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Ron Parr
Guest
The absurdity is in saying that Bayer sensors have the full advertised resolution. We've grown to accept this little lie and now the inconsistency of it all bothers us when we apply the same logic to the Foveon sensor.
--Ron ParrFAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.htmlGallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
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Paul Juhn
Guest
Depending on which way you see the PIXEL is, it can be 10.3M.
I do not have any problem understanding its claim.
The new technology is so much different from the current 2 dimensional design of sensors that Foveon is just trying to advertise its capability!
Why people are so much against FOVEON?
I just want to see it come out ASAP on the market.
I do not have any problem understanding its claim.
The new technology is so much different from the current 2 dimensional design of sensors that Foveon is just trying to advertise its capability!
Why people are so much against FOVEON?
I just want to see it come out ASAP on the market.
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Phil Askey
Guest
I'm with Ron, this is where the whole thing gets sticky. It's our acceptance of existing single-colour-pixel sensors as providing per photosite per pixel resolution that causes us to believe the X3 isn't what it says it is.
jkirk@oz
Senior Member
It's unbeleivable that this debate has gone on for so long, its SIMPLE MATHEMATICS folks !!! Fer chrissakes -
Issue_1 : A 3.4 MP Faveon and a 3.4 MP Bayer Pattern have the SAME RESOLUTION. ie If you are taking a shot of a very fine grid-pattern (Phils V and H Res charts), they both are "capable" of resolving the same number of "Lines". The "purity of the Line" would be far superior with the Faveon though, because it can "resolve" perfect colour at eack "pixel" or "line element". In the bayer, you only have a red then blue then green / green pixel, so if it was a "red line" you'd miss resolution every 4 !! You can't MAKE UP what it was supposed to be !!!
Issue_2 : At every "pixel site" the Faveon has 3x MORE colour / intensity / luminance INFORMATION than a similar Bayer "site". This means that the Faveon shot has 3x "purer colour". If you enlarge both shots I can tell you which one would still be exceptional even after 4x Mag.
Final NOTE : "IF" perchance Sigma doesn't do the Faveon sensor any justice, seeing as they are small and new in the digital game, DON'T blame the Faveon sensor. It has NO BEARING on the technical "capabilities" of the sensor !
My $1's worth
JKirk
Issue_1 : A 3.4 MP Faveon and a 3.4 MP Bayer Pattern have the SAME RESOLUTION. ie If you are taking a shot of a very fine grid-pattern (Phils V and H Res charts), they both are "capable" of resolving the same number of "Lines". The "purity of the Line" would be far superior with the Faveon though, because it can "resolve" perfect colour at eack "pixel" or "line element". In the bayer, you only have a red then blue then green / green pixel, so if it was a "red line" you'd miss resolution every 4 !! You can't MAKE UP what it was supposed to be !!!
Issue_2 : At every "pixel site" the Faveon has 3x MORE colour / intensity / luminance INFORMATION than a similar Bayer "site". This means that the Faveon shot has 3x "purer colour". If you enlarge both shots I can tell you which one would still be exceptional even after 4x Mag.
Final NOTE : "IF" perchance Sigma doesn't do the Faveon sensor any justice, seeing as they are small and new in the digital game, DON'T blame the Faveon sensor. It has NO BEARING on the technical "capabilities" of the sensor !
My $1's worth
JKirk
Jo Lovell
Well-known member
To
I'm not sure about the validity of this comparison, as medium format also has three layers does it not?
But things might get interesting if you were comparing black and white film?Are there any issues around foveon black and white?
sorry to be a bit pedantic,correct me if i'm wrong. (about the comparison, not about the degree of pedantry)
Jo
Hmmm,
I'm not sure about the validity of this comparison, as medium format also has three layers does it not?
But things might get interesting if you were comparing black and white film?Are there any issues around foveon black and white?
sorry to be a bit pedantic,correct me if i'm wrong. (about the comparison, not about the degree of pedantry)
Jo
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Phil Askey
Guest
(It's Foveon not Faveon..)
Correct, as you point out the "purity of the line" is important and has a direct effect on output resolution. Did you see the resolution chart crop I posted in my X3 preview? The Foveon X3 is capable of resolving more monochrome resolution than an identical MP bayer chip. And just as importantly the resolution chart could use red, blue, orange, purple or any coloured line and you'd get the same resolution from the Foveon.. Try that with a mosaic chip.
ExposureMeter
Senior Member
Existing Bayer sensors are a proven product and are accepted as giving excellent results.
The Foveon 3 layer product is currrently hot air, Foveon have announced pevious sensors in the past and and they appear to have vapourised. When I see a comparable print from a Foveon camera I will believe that they can deliver.
The Foveon 3 layer product is currrently hot air, Foveon have announced pevious sensors in the past and and they appear to have vapourised. When I see a comparable print from a Foveon camera I will believe that they can deliver.
--Geoff
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Phil Askey
Guest
What and When?
Jack40001
Leading Member
I think you misunderstand the whole point of the X3 sensor. Don't use the term "x3" to miscalculate the surface area and resolution. It is just a reference for the number of transmitted values used to capture 3 times more color information per pixel. Instead you may use it to calculate the amount of transmitted data for the color depth information, which actualy IS 3 times more COLOR information per pixel. Nothing happens with the surface area or picture resolution.
Jack.
Jack.
Jack40001
Leading Member
It would be nice to have a red and a blue resolution chart, in which the normal bayer pattern sensors are just capturing 25% of that of the Foveon sensor, that would make a difference of even "X4" in captured information from the chart !!! 
))
Jack.
)) Jack.
Correct, as you point out the "purity of the line" is important and
has a direct effect on output resolution. Did you see the
resolution chart crop I posted in my X3 preview? The Foveon X3 is
capable of resolving more monochrome resolution than an identical
MP bayer chip. And just as importantly the resolution chart could
use red, blue, orange, purple or any coloured line and you'd get
the same resolution from the Foveon.. Try that with a mosaic chip.
ExposureMeter
Senior Member
If I recall correctly it was an alliance where one of their sensors was used with Hasselblad and was called Definity or something like that.
--Geoff
DavidMillier
Forum Pro
If you think there is confusion and misunderstanding on this issue amongst forum members, spare a thought for this month's Practical Photography magazine (UK). In a news item on the Sigma SLR they describe it as having 3 CCDs! Of course, it hasn't got any CCDs at all (the foveon being a CMOS sensor).
jkirk@oz
Senior Member
What's more unbeleivable is, until f_o_veon, we were bitching about whether a sensor had 3.200 MP or 3.150 MP's and taking the manufacturers to task over those few crummy pixels. Now we realize we were duped FAR worse, that there was only 1/4 of ANY actual colour !!! and each "site" was a guess of TRUE COLOUR. I propose this is now referred to as "PIXELGATE" (dramatic music). Motion submitted to the court.
JKirk
JKirk
sheesh, 1 crummy spelling mistake and I get an A-Jack wrote:
It would be nice to have a red and a blue resolution chart, in
which the normal bayer pattern sensors are just capturing 25% of
that of the Foveon sensor, that would make a difference of even
"X4" in captured information from the chart !!!
Jack.
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Ron Parr
Guest
Certainly, we'll need to wait and see how the actual product tests out.
While I haven't seen them personally (friends have), Foveon products have been used to make stunning enlargements measured in feet, not inches.
The Foveon guys are people to be reckoned with.
--Ron ParrFAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.htmlGallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
Jack40001
Leading Member
That's right! Before the Foveon X3 existed, we accepted it, as it was the only logical solution. If we had X3 first and Bayer pattern CCD later, we would probably called those X1/3, although I can live with X1 for (1 layer) Bayer pattern and X3 for 3 layer Foveon.
We all knew about many Non-Adaptive algorithms and the better Adaptive algorithms, especially the (adaptive) variable number of gradients algorithm. I think there are more then just 12 algorithms, as I wrote some which were fine tuned and heavy modified combinations of several of these:
http://ise.stanford.edu/class/psych221/99/tingchen/main.htm
and also much more CPU intensive. They gave almost invisible better results in some aspects. But it will never reach the quality of the output of a same resolution X3 sensor.
I still wonder if there will be a 7Mp (2x 3.5Mp) X3 Nikon (D300?) next year... ;-) Ah, that's why all those nikon cameras are called D1, D1h, D1x, D100. The D3, D3h, D3x, and D300 will come later...
Jack.
We all knew about many Non-Adaptive algorithms and the better Adaptive algorithms, especially the (adaptive) variable number of gradients algorithm. I think there are more then just 12 algorithms, as I wrote some which were fine tuned and heavy modified combinations of several of these:
http://ise.stanford.edu/class/psych221/99/tingchen/main.htm
and also much more CPU intensive. They gave almost invisible better results in some aspects. But it will never reach the quality of the output of a same resolution X3 sensor.
I still wonder if there will be a 7Mp (2x 3.5Mp) X3 Nikon (D300?) next year... ;-) Ah, that's why all those nikon cameras are called D1, D1h, D1x, D100. The D3, D3h, D3x, and D300 will come later...
Jack.
sheesh, 1 crummy spelling mistake and I get an A-Jack wrote:
It would be nice to have a red and a blue resolution chart, in
which the normal bayer pattern sensors are just capturing 25% of
that of the Foveon sensor, that would make a difference of even
"X4" in captured information from the chart !!!
Jack.
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Ron Parr
Guest
I don't completely agree with this part. For a B&W pattern, a foveon sensor will have superior resolving power to an equivalent sized Bayer pattern sensor.
Remember that the luminance information is being interpolated too with Bayer pattern sensors, so it's possible to get the brightness of a pixel 2/3s wrong. (You'll actually do better thant his for the green and worse the red and blue, but you get the idea...)
--Ron ParrFAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.htmlGallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
Jack40001
Leading Member
Funny, looks like "CCD" is sometimes the shorter and general reference to any sensor, "CMOS sensor" or "CCD", I think. Why are D30 users afraid to get dust on their CCDs?
Jack.
Jack.
jkirk@oz
Senior Member
Oh yes, I agree there are other issues as well, where Foveon has the advantage. I was just being nice to the Bayer system I was picking one just ONE aspect.
JKirk
I was picking one just ONE aspect. JKirk
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Phil Askey
Guest
They had a three chip system (Foveon II) which used a prism to split the light onto the three sensors (see, even back then they'd got the basic principals). This was a REAL product and was sold (and is used) to studios.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0009/00092110photokina1.asp#foveon
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0102/01021407pma01.asp#foveon
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0009/00092110photokina1.asp#foveon
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0102/01021407pma01.asp#foveon
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