SLRs should have preview LCD

I have an E-10 and use the optical viewfinder to compose my photos.
However, I am learning to use the LCD to help get the initial
exposure that I want and to set the white balance to get the photo
as I envision it.
I also have the E-10 and I try to avoid trusting it for WB and fine exposure adjustments. It is rather blue - about the difference between 6500K and 5500K and for the exposure I prefer the histogram.

Not to mention the huge battery consumption of the LCD - I still use NiMh.

Radu Grozescu
http://www.RaduGrozescu.com
 
This was discussed in a previous thread...

The professional DSLRs are exactly that.... professional.
I don't understand what you mean. A professional uses whatever equipment he needs to accomplish his objective. If he is climbing to the top of Mt. Everest he may carry only a Canon Rebel. If a feature can be useful in getting the photo as he envisions it then it is "professional".
Look at pro video cameras as well, will you find an in camera sepia
tone feature?
Did not suggest a sepia tone feature.
Comparing a professional DSLR to a consumer digi-cam is like
comparing a piece of a professional chef's cutlery to a swiss-army
type knife.
I did not compare a DSLR to a consumer digi-cam. It just happens to be a fact that consumer digicams have preview LCDs as they are easier to implement when you do not have an optical through the lens viewfinder.
MPG/AVI capture LCD preview, are simply features aimed at winning
over consumers who "want the most for their money".
I did not mention MPG/AVI capture. LCD preview can be a very useful feature for a photographer to get the result he/she envisions.
Why look at a low res 5 fps LCD when you can "preview" the shot
through a highspeed/analog/realtime/billion pixel lense? :) and
save your battery....
You can not preview the final picture in your Optical Viewfinder without a great deal of visualization of how the final result will differ because of the way the human eye/mind views a two dimensional picture. An LCD can help with that visualization and a preview can help even more
There are three types of camera mounts:

1. BEST: Tripod...three feet.
2. GOOD: Our big fat heads connected to out necks connected to our
2 feet..lean against a wall/pole/etc for one more "foot".
3. OK(last resort): Top of an object(car, table, bag), however not
very flexible, very restrictive.
4. WORST: Out in front, floating, unsupported, moving in all three
planes(x,y,z), held up by two points which pivots at eleven points!
I'm not sure what you are saying here, but I did not suggest holding the camera out and using your LCD to take the photo. Remember, you still have your optical viewfinder (in that "professiional" camera) to for final compositon and actuallt taking the photo.
Many professional grade devices often lack the "bells and whistles'
found on consumer grade devices(not just cameras).

IF professionals really needed (not wanted) this feature it would
be there. The ONLY place where this might be useful in a PJ in a
crowd holding his/her camera over the crowd, be then most LCD
screens don't fold down, only up. Anywho, in this situtation the PJ
relies on the wide angle lens and (more importantly) his/her
experience :)

Heck, worse than that, look back BEFORE the days of digi when some
of the most expensive Hassy MF bodies and lenses were(still are)
manual focus and exposure! and they cost literally thousands more
than a fully automatic 3x point and shoot Olympus.
I owned a Hassy and currently own a manual focus Pentax 645 and you are right they cost thousands more than a point and shoot. Whatever, that has to do with what I suggested. I assume all you Canon EOS1 owners are going back to manual focus. Your point is valid in one sense. I have seen better photos taken with a point and shoot then some photos I have seen with medium format cameras.
Remember, most of the pros shooting the pro DSLRs where shooting
film cameras with out any preview or post view for that matter(
unless they used polaroid backs for setups).
I don't use preview with my Pentax 645!

Frank B
-John
It seems to me that photo manufacturers of interchangeable SlRs are
not taking full advantage of digital as they do not typically
provide a preview with the LCD. This could be done simply by
providing a mirror lock-up by and allowing the use of the LCD while
the mirror is locked. The LCD can be very useful if it is well
designed. You can get a good idea of the effect of exposure
changes (in manual mode on my camera you can adjust exposure and
see the results on the LCD) and with the LCD you can cycle through
different white balance selections and see the impact on your
color. This is a real aid to visualizing your final print.

The fact that manufacturers refuse offer previews on the LCD and
refuse to fix the dust problem are two of the reasons why I’m not
yet willing to “upgrade”.

Frank B
 
Mike,
Frank

actually it is not quite that easy

There is of course the mirror and the shutter that needs to stay
open which would turn your fast SLR into a slow consumer camera
(lag time)

But even worse the CCD's/CMOS used in the professional cameras or
prosumer SLR's have technical limits and can not be used for a life
feed as they cant handle the speed as they are designed for quality
and not speed.
You may well be right. I don't have the technical background and thought it would be simpler.
I did have an E-10 and now use a D30 and yes for certain shots it
would be nice to have life preview. These include overhead shots
where you cant get to the viewfinder or shots close to the ground.
Also shooting fireworks is really nice using life preview.
That was how I was using it too. Lately I have been using it for exposure in certain situations and for white balance. I find as I cycle through the setting it helps me visualize the final result.
Interestingly enough i never used life preview for exposure
settings. I dont really think it would be accurate enough anyway as
it is simply guesswork. Or how do you think that .5 second exposure
would be done properly in preview mode if the LCD gets updated 20
times a second or so ?
Not sure why, but it seems to work.
As for white balance it is a similar thing. The LCD is ok but it
will never be really correct anyway. shoot in raw and use custom
white balance and if something is wrong you can always override it
in pp.
Here, I want some on the spot input rather than trying to get what I wanted from memory.

Frank B
--
Michael Salzlechner
StarZen Digital Imaging
http://www.starzen.com/imaging
 
Radu,

I use the histogram for fine exposure adjustments. I use the preview when I want to overexpose or underexpose to gain a certain effect. I agree the E-10 LCD is not great.

Frank B
I have an E-10 and use the optical viewfinder to compose my photos.
However, I am learning to use the LCD to help get the initial
exposure that I want and to set the white balance to get the photo
as I envision it.
I also have the E-10 and I try to avoid trusting it for WB and fine
exposure adjustments. It is rather blue - about the difference
between 6500K and 5500K and for the exposure I prefer the histogram.

Not to mention the huge battery consumption of the LCD - I still
use NiMh.

Radu Grozescu
http://www.RaduGrozescu.com
 
I agree that you can review the photo on the LCD after the shot
(much more quickly on your D1x). However, I find that even with
the E-10's poor LCD it is helpful to be able to cycle through
different exposures and different white balance settings before I
take my photo. For example, if I want to silhouette some objects
in the photo.

I don't agree that an optical viewfinder shows you what you will
get. It often does not show you what color you will get (e.g.
"blue snow"; orange faces when he sun is setting, etc.).
Photographers must visualize the differences from what you see in
the optical viewfinder and the final picture on the screen and in
print. A good LCD can make that task easier.

Frank B
This is what I have started calling "digital crutch" Not that long ago (1-2 years we had to wait hours to see an image (remember film). That is why it is about the photographers skill, we do still have skill, don't we? Apply solid photographic techniques and acquired experience and ther shouldn't be a problem...besides you see results in a split second anyway. It is digital if the snow is blue after the first shot, tweak it.

It still takes some technical knowledge and experience to make great photographs...--Ron Gee
 
I agree that you can review the photo on the LCD after the shot
(much more quickly on your D1x). However, I find that even with
the E-10's poor LCD it is helpful to be able to cycle through
different exposures and different white balance settings before I
take my photo. For example, if I want to silhouette some objects
in the photo.

I don't agree that an optical viewfinder shows you what you will
get. It often does not show you what color you will get (e.g.
"blue snow"; orange faces when he sun is setting, etc.).
Photographers must visualize the differences from what you see in
the optical viewfinder and the final picture on the screen and in
print. A good LCD can make that task easier.

Frank B
This is what I have started calling "digital crutch" Not that long
ago (1-2 years we had to wait hours to see an image (remember
film). That is why it is about the photographers skill, we do
still have skill, don't we? Apply solid photographic techniques
and acquired experience and ther shouldn't be a problem...besides
you see results in a split second anyway. It is digital if the
snow is blue after the first shot, tweak it.

It still takes some technical knowledge and experience to make
great photographs...
True, but it does not hurt if technology can help you. After all, most photographers could not paint a picture and yet some who can't can still create art in a photograph with the aid of a camera.

Frank B
--
Ron Gee
 
I have read Phil's review about D30 and he said that due to Canon
use a semitransparent mirror, it should be possible to replace the
AF sensor with a cheap image sensor which provide both AF
information and LCD preview. I like this idea. This will not change
any other digital SLR performance and seems technically feasible.
In addition to LCD preview, you can have other fuction such as
freely set AF point, etc. Of course, the change on hardware and
software is quit big. May be Canon also want to go along this way
and planning to introduce it in D90 or ...
It's an interesting idea, but I see some problems with it. You'd need some optics to focus the image on the preview sensor and then you'd need to trade off preview brightness against viewfinder brightness. I suspect you'd either have a dim viewfinder or a dim LCD.

--Ron ParrFAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.htmlGallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
I have an E-10
I am sorry, I was talking about professional digital cameras not consumer units.--Greg GebhardtJacksonville, Florida
 
Ron,

I suggest you to read Phil's D30 review:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canond30/

The mirror on D30 is already partial semitransparent. What neet to be done is to make whole mirror semitransparent. So the viewfinder brightness is the same. The AF sensor should be at the focus plan, that is, it sees exactly what you see in the viewfind. As the brightness of the preview, it is only the matter of signal to noise ratio from the preview sensor. The pixel number of this sensor needn't be high, so should not be a big problem. I think the most challenge job will be to get accurate and fast focus action from such system.
It's an interesting idea, but I see some problems with it. You'd
need some optics to focus the image on the preview sensor and then
you'd need to trade off preview brightness against viewfinder
brightness. I suspect you'd either have a dim viewfinder or a dim
LCD.

--
Ron Parr
FAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.html
Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
Ron,

I suggest you to read Phil's D30 review:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canond30/
I was aware of this when I typed my response.
The mirror on D30 is already partial semitransparent. What neet to
be done is to make whole mirror semitransparent. So the viewfinder
brightness is the same.
The point is that the light hitting the secondary image sensor would need to be bright enough to produce an acceptable image for the viewer, not just bright enough for the autofocus mechanism to work. You can't get something for nothing. Whatever light you give to the proposed secondary preview sensor comes at the expense of the viewfinder.
The AF sensor should be at the focus plan,
that is, it sees exactly what you see in the viewfind. As the
brightness of the preview, it is only the matter of signal to noise
ratio from the preview sensor. The pixel number of this sensor
needn't be high, so should not be a big problem. I think the most
challenge job will be to get accurate and fast focus action from
such system.
The AF sensor on modern EOS cameras catches light from a central area of the the miiror which is then reflected through a series of mirrors and a secondary splitting lens onto an area CCD which is used for phase detection autofocusing.

The change you are blithely proposing would involve replacing the mirrors with new mirrors large enough to capture the entire field of view, and replacing the separating lens used for phase dection autofocus with something else so that a single image is pojected onto the preview sensor.

I'm not sure that this is reasonable thing to hope for because there isn't a lot of room to work behind the lens and whatever you have there has to move out of the way with the mirror when it flips. However, let's assume this problem is solved, the next problem is that you can no longer use phase detection autofocusing (because there's just a single image) and you need to use contrast detection, which is an inferior focusing method.

--Ron ParrFAQ: http://www.cs.duke.edu/~parr/photography/faq.htmlGallery: http://www.pbase.com/parr/
 
I agree with you about the dust problem.

Funny that I'm willing to pay big bucks to avoid just what you want. I want the clear instantaneous view of an optical view system. I wouldn't mind having an LCD post-view of the image though the normal SLR eyepiece.

I hate back of the camera LCD displays. They get dirty with cheek smudges and you can't ever see them outside.
It seems to me that photo manufacturers of interchangeable SlRs are
not taking full advantage of digital as they do not typically
provide a preview with the LCD. This could be done simply by
providing a mirror lock-up by and allowing the use of the LCD while
the mirror is locked. The LCD can be very useful if it is well
designed. You can get a good idea of the effect of exposure
changes (in manual mode on my camera you can adjust exposure and
see the results on the LCD) and with the LCD you can cycle through
different white balance selections and see the impact on your
color. This is a real aid to visualizing your final print.

The fact that manufacturers refuse offer previews on the LCD and
refuse to fix the dust problem are two of the reasons why I’m not
yet willing to “upgrade”.

Frank B
 
I believe that is how the mind tends to work (blocks out the nasty details) when composing a photo through the viewfinder. You are right that top photographers learn to see the stuff they when composing a picture. I know when I had a waist level viewfinder medium format camera I felt it was easier to compose good photos because it was as if I was looking at a small print. I would love a big LCD too. How about a waist level LCD viewfinder like a Hassy! Only when LCD technology gets better though.

Frank B
I am for live preview and a good sized one at that.

For some reason most pictures I take are not what I saw in the
Viewfinder when I look at the print. On the print I can immediately
see all the flaws. For some reason when I look through the
viewfinder I see only the objects that interested me enough to take
a picture. Only in the print do I see all the garbage around it
that spoils it.

Now I think a pro has trained himself to see the full story in the
viefinder, maybe even in his mind's eye.

But for amateurs like me I can compose a picture much better on a
monitor. The Coolpix was fine for a while, but my appetite is
rapidly intersecting the price drop of a so called professional
DSLR. Just wish they had the preview feature. For now I am quite
happy with my Oly E-10.

Ludwig III. ( pronounced "te turd")
 
i want both. The LCD on my "old" Pro 70 can be seen easily outside. I don't know why other cameras pose such a proble. The LCD on my E-10 is poor.

Frank B
Funny that I'm willing to pay big bucks to avoid just what you
want. I want the clear instantaneous view of an optical view
system. I wouldn't mind having an LCD post-view of the image though
the normal SLR eyepiece.

I hate back of the camera LCD displays. They get dirty with cheek
smudges and you can't ever see them outside.
It seems to me that photo manufacturers of interchangeable SlRs are
not taking full advantage of digital as they do not typically
provide a preview with the LCD. This could be done simply by
providing a mirror lock-up by and allowing the use of the LCD while
the mirror is locked. The LCD can be very useful if it is well
designed. You can get a good idea of the effect of exposure
changes (in manual mode on my camera you can adjust exposure and
see the results on the LCD) and with the LCD you can cycle through
different white balance selections and see the impact on your
color. This is a real aid to visualizing your final print.

The fact that manufacturers refuse offer previews on the LCD and
refuse to fix the dust problem are two of the reasons why I’m not
yet willing to “upgrade”.

Frank B
 

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