Pentax to sell Tokyo HQ, Discontinues 645D Development

pico23 said:

Tannin,

If you didn't know (perhaps you never shot film), pentax was one of
the leading MF camera makers. They sort of just made 35mm as a side
show, MF was their show.

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Can you substantiate this?

pico23 said:

They never considered 35mm professional.

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They did. The Pentax LX was their professional 35 mm camera,

profit double blah blah blah

tweedle said:

Sorry, I didn't know about the working model. At the PMA two months
ago, I think it was only a passive mock-up.

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It was PIE 2007 in Tokyo where it was reported that the 645D was a working prototype.

bazz.

Tannin said:

Seriously, how good was the 645D ever going to be? Pentax couldn't
afford to spend too much on development of it (and even if they had
a huge pile of money, you can't afford to go p*ing that away on a
niche market product), and it was taking far too long....

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Some would say similar things about an E-1 replacement or lenses like 90-250/2,8

Tannin said:

Yes, Canon. No, Canon don't have a MF DSLR, but they do have the
1Ds II and (presumably) a 1Ds III before too long. These are bodies
that have had a ton of money spent on them, and have an awesome
range of lenses available. Yup, they are "small" with a mere 35mm
sensor, but they nevertheless set the benchmark for pro-level
cameras. For a 645D to be possible, it would have to be a major
step up from a 1Ds III.

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Last information was that Pentax would use the Kodak 31MP FFT CCD in their 645D. That's a significant step over the 1Ds II.

http://www.reuters.com/articlePrint?articleId=UST3146520070510

I think it's all just rumours for now. We will have to wait till tomorrow to see what happens.
--
Fero, London
My blog: http://feronovak.blogspot.com/index.html

Tannin said:

Yes, Canon. No, Canon don't have a MF DSLR, but they do have the
1Ds II and (presumably) a 1Ds III before too long. These are bodies
that have had a ton of money spent on them, and have an awesome
range of lenses available. Yup, they are "small" with a mere 35mm
sensor, but they nevertheless set the benchmark for pro-level
cameras. For a 645D to be possible, it would have to be a major
step up from a 1Ds III.

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The 645D was never intended to compete with something like the 1Ds MkIII. The 645D is traditionally more a studio centric tool and you could say the 1Ds MkIII is aimed more at PJ's and sports shooters.

bazz.

There goes the resale value on my Pentax 645 film lenses.

bazz.

sir_bazz said:

The 645D was never intended to compete with something like the 1Ds
MkIII. The 645D is traditionally more a studio centric tool and
you could say the 1Ds MkIII is aimed more at PJ's and sports
shooters.

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The 1Ds series is aimed at studio shooters. The PJ and sports segment is handled by the less expensive and quicker 1D series.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed

nickleback said:

The 1Ds series is aimed at studio shooters. The PJ and sports
segment is handled by the less expensive and quicker 1D series.

--

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Dang I messed that up.

I did mean the 1D MkIII so thanks for the correction.

bazz.

sir_bazz said:

nickleback said:

The 1Ds series is aimed at studio shooters. The PJ and sports
segment is handled by the less expensive and quicker 1D series.

--

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Dang I messed that up.

I did mean the 1D MkIII so thanks for the correction.

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You're welcome.

The poster you were responding to meant the 1Ds series, and mentioned the mythical 1Ds III because everybody (including Pentax) knows that the 1Ds II will be upgraded, the only questions are when, what resolution, and what price.

If Canon felt threatened by a low-end 645 DSLR (and it's not clear they would), they've got a lot of room to move. Not only because Canon is much bigger than Pentax and has a ton of money, but also because the 1Ds series shares almost all the same components (except sensor) with the much more common and less expensive 1D series.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed

nickleback said:

The 1Ds series is aimed at studio shooters. The PJ and sports
segment is handled by the less expensive and quicker 1D series.

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...That's an inaccurate statement. You don't need 45 point AF, a sealed body and 4 fps in the studio. The 1Ds mkII is the tool of choice for a lot more than just the studio. If anything, it's the 5D that has become the more popular studio camera for many pros in the past year. In the studio, it produces comparable results at about 1/3 the cost.

nickleback said:

nosnoop said:

tweedle said:

The 645D could have been no more than window dressing all along. A
small study done to make the camera division look better for
potential buyers.

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I hate this type of baseless accusation. The 645D is only months
away from launch. And a working model was demonstrated at a photo
show in Japan a few weeks ago.

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For e few years it has been only months away from launch.

If it's truly only months away from launch, then all the R&D has
been poured into it and production has started. It makes little
sense to cut it now. Might as well see if the market likes it or
not.

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I'm sure that there is significant sunk cost in the R&D but Pentax will have to pony up even more to tool up production and make commitments to vendors for sensors and other vital parts. With the company in protective mode against a hostile Hoya takeover, the funds will not be made available, espectially for a marginally profitable line like MF cameras.

--
rc

sir_bazz said:

There goes the resale value on my Pentax 645 film lenses.

bazz.

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I'm in the same boat. Have been treading water waiting to see what happens. There are lots of folks with Bronica equipment sitting idle out there. I sure hope that doesn't happen with Pentax 645. There would seem to be room for something below the Hassleblad in the market, and with Mamiya's ZD not really available in the N. American market, and seemingly a flawed camera in certain respects, I think there was/is room for a Pentax 645D if priced right (i.e., way below the Hassleblad). It also would seem that Pentax could leverage what it has learned from years of APS-C DSLR development into a better 645D. Neither Mamiya nor Hassleblad had or have such learning experiences.

I'm not sure how much "more" camera a 645D would need to be compared to Canon's 1DS series. Arguably, Pentax would be marketing to a somewhat different crowd - those with film 645's to start with, particularly those with 35mm systems that lack a FF option (at least for now). I am one of those. If I could get a 645D to go with my existing 645 system, it would be easier than switching to Canon if I decide I want or need that level of image. So, a camera at say a 50% price premium over a 1DS series could make sense (i.e., you don't need to buy new Canon glass if you already have Pentax 645 glass).

But 35mm style DSLRs, including the APS-C format, are capable of delivering such high image quality that the "need" for a 645 sized camera is likely less "needed" now than it was in the days of film. Then again, if a 645D could deliver image quality comparable to that of a 6x7 (or even larger) medium-large format camera, it could find a decent market. How about all those photographers with 6x7 systems (lenses) that could be used with a 645D?

Nonetheless, the larger than 35mm style format is most definitely a niche market. Is there room for more than 1 1/2 players (I consider Mamiya only half a player given the limited distribution of the ZD, and one wonders about its continued viability as a stand-alone product)? Beats me. I'm not privy to the economic data regarding that market segment. I for one certainly hope that Pentax does not kill the 645D.

--
Mark Van Bergh

Tim in upstate NY said:

nickleback said:

The 1Ds series is aimed at studio shooters. The PJ and sports
segment is handled by the less expensive and quicker 1D series.

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...That's an inaccurate statement. You don't need 45 point AF, a
sealed body and 4 fps in the studio.

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And you don't need to spend $8k to get a PJ camera, and 4fps is laughable for sports.

Tim in upstate NY said:

The 1Ds mkII is the tool of
choice for a lot more than just the studio.

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Sure, you can actually take it out of the studio too.

Tim in upstate NY said:

If anything, it's the
5D that has become the more popular studio camera for many pros in
the past year. In the studio, it produces comparable results at
about 1/3 the cost.

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Absolutely true. But that doesn't change the fact that the 1Ds series was aimed at studio shooters and 1D series was aimed at PJ and sports. That the 1Ds is suitable for other roles and the 5D is also very capable doesn't change that.

We were talking about potential competition for a low-end 645 digital. The 1Ds series is a very obvious competitor as it is the high end of 35mm digital.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed

Richard DK said:

I just checked both Hoya and Pentax financial reports which are
available on their websites.
Hoya had sales in FY06 of 390billion yen and net income of 83B.
Pentax reports on May11 but up to end of 3rd Quarter (Dec31/06)
had only 117Billion in sales but did show some 2B in net income
after suffering a loss of 805Million last year.
Hoya also has a cash holding of 120B. All figures are in Yen which
last time I noticed was at 120 to the US$

I know this isn't a financial forum but those numbers do indicate
that Pentax may very well be better off as part of HOYA.

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Your analysis is too superficial for anyone to draw such a conclusion.

Profitability: If you want to rate different sized companies, I would not recommend overall net income. How about ROI or EPS? Even operating cashflow would be a better figure (although scale is still a factor).

Cash on the Balance Sheet: The most easily manipulated figure in all of finance. How about quick or current ratio? Heck, what about overall leverage?

Future prospects: If I assume that what is happening today will remain the same forever, I am 1) an idiot and 2) a financial journalist. What is Pentax' future outlook?

Richard DK said:

The two
companies have been in talks to intergrate their management for
several months and despite Pentax rejecting Hoya's takeover offer
those talks are apparently ongoing.

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I didn't know that the two were still in discussions. I thought they ended when the CEO was demoted to board member. In any case, Pentax' public posture of defiance can't be leading to substantive talks.

Richard DK said:

I am posting this to assure Pentax owners that the Pentax brand
isn't going to disappear anytime soon.

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I'm glad to hear but I never doubted it. I'm sorry if this comes off as "kill the messenger" but the post seems more like a "sky is falling" analysis than passing on information.

--
rc

if you really were paying attention, you would know that Pentax and Hoya have been in continuous discussions for the past month and issuing press releases or official statements on the merger at least once a week. meanwhile, Pentax has become a laughing stock in Japan for its incompetent and petulant management that continues to have its head in the sand.

Herb...

nickleback said:

Tim in upstate NY said:

nickleback said:

The 1Ds series is aimed at studio shooters. The PJ and sports
segment is handled by the less expensive and quicker 1D series.

Click to expand...

...That's an inaccurate statement. You don't need 45 point AF, a
sealed body and 4 fps in the studio.

Click to expand...

And you don't need to spend $8k to get a PJ camera, and 4fps is
laughable for sports.

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.....Well.....since nobody needs 4 fps in the studio and since you say it's a joke for sports...it looks like Canon ought to hire you and fire whoever it is that has been helping them design those cameras that have been capturing all of that marketshare. In reality, the 1Ds is a professional quality DSLR that's is intended for general use in many environments and situations. Just the weather sealing alone would prove that point without any further argument. Also, photojournalists have been known to spend a lot of money on their equipment so that rhetorical nonsense about the $8k price is more than just a little silly. Even for an online forum.

nickleback said:

The 1Ds mkII is the tool of

nickleback said:

choice for a lot more than just the studio.

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Sure, you can actually take it out of the studio too.

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.....What a clever comeback!

nickleback said:

We were talking about potential competition for a low-end 645
digital. The 1Ds series is a very obvious competitor as it is the
high end of 35mm digital.

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........I could start pontificating like you about what studio pros would or wouldn't do if there was an affordable 645D alternative to the Canon equipment that is so prevalent these days. But Pentax has bailed out and they must think that they know a little more than you about what their chances were in that arena. If Canon doesn't hire you, maybe Pentax could use your services!

Mark VB said:

Is there room for more than 1 1/2 players (I consider Mamiya
only half a player given the limited distribution of the ZD, and
one wonders about its continued viability as a stand-alone
product)? Beats me.

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You may have noticed that digiback makers LEAF/Kodak and SINAR/Jenoptik have jointly devoped a new medium format camera, the Hy6, that will be sold also under the ROLLEI brand.

What you see here is beginnibg integration of camera/back, just like it is seen for Hasselblad.

Pentax, unfortunately, is no digiback maker, and therefore would be in a volatile position with the 645D.

Tim in upstate NY said:

.....Well.....since nobody needs 4 fps in the studio and since you
say it's a joke for sports...it looks like Canon ought to hire you
and fire whoever it is that has been helping them design those
cameras that have been capturing all of that marketshare.

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So they should slow the 1Ds down to 1/2 fps just so it performs just like a MF studio camera, despite the fact that they've got a platform already built (for the 1D) that can process images a lot quicker? Seems like a WOMBAT to me, but whatever you say.

Tim in upstate NY said:

In
reality, the 1Ds is a professional quality DSLR that's is intended
for general use in many environments and situations.

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...and it is Canon's entry into the studio camera market. But I guess this is a difficult concept for you, since you've wasted two postings attacking me for saying just that.

Tim in upstate NY said:

If Canon doesn't
hire you, maybe Pentax could use your services!

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My, you really are something.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed

but the 645D wa supposed to be way cheaper than other medium alternatives so i think there is a market m(aybe a niche market but the 5D is a niche market too, kind off)