overexposed dress!

Martin Caie said:

Expose to preserve the dress. The more you underexpose, the lower
you can have your ISO whilst preserving shutter speed. This means
you don't lose anything in terms of image quality by increasing
noise when you increase exposure compensation during post.

Click to expand...

(Incorrect, but anyway.)

LiveM said:

Cameras
like the Fuji are nice but are not offering anything you can't do
yourself with a higher-quality camera like the D200 or 5D.

Click to expand...

Subtle form of brand-bashing, but completely false.

Neither the D200 or the 5D can compete ith the Fujifilm S3/5 cameras when it comes to DR. You will encounter situations when the D200 or the 5D simply can not cope with the amount of DR present in a scene, even in RAW & underexpsed.

Try this example for starters:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1020&message=23062402

Not.

Exposure isn't rocket science. Exposure for digital must be based on the brightest textured highlight in the viewfinder. If that is exposed correctly then everything else in the same light will be also, down to the limit of the camera's sensitivity.

What the artificial intelligence of matrix or evaluative metering tries to do is determine where the brightest textured highlights are in the scene in the viewfinder. By comparing the luminance values from multiple zones it can find the brightest and darkest, then determine the EV range and whether it is within the EV range the camera can record. It can also bais the exposure based on where things are in the viewfinder. If there's a bright white dress at the bottom of the frame and a darker face in the middle the logic of the exposure system will assume the face is more important and bias the exposure it correctly even if it means some brighter areas will be blown.

Spot metering the face really wouldn't help the situation. The thing to realize about metering is that the smaller the area measured becomes the most skill and experince the photographer must have at interpreting the reading. A spot meter wants to reproduce whatever it is pointed at middle gray. If it is pointed at a face that reflects one stop more light than middle gray then the photographer will need to compensate from the reading by a stop. If pointed at a textured highlight the spot reading may need to be compensated by 2-1/2 t0 3 stops to make the measured area white in the capture.

Average metering tends to work better in situations for getting the whites right, but for reasons which aren't always obvious. For example if you were to meter a white wall with average mode and automatic metering system would reproduce it as gray at EC=0. Put a girl in a white dress in front of the wall and the white dress will be gray also. But if you were to meter a dark wall the meter would also try to make it middle gray. Putting the white dress in front of it wouldn't change the overall average of the scene or the exposure much, but the dress would be perfectly exposed as white in the shot. Why? The rising tide lifts all the ships in the harbor. When reacting to the darker than average wall and increasing the exposure to make it gray it would also lift the tone of the dress from the middle gray it would be reproduce as if spot metered to white.

The upshot of all of this is that you can't turn off your brain when you put your camera in auto metering. You should identify the brightest area in the photo which will produce the rightmost "blip" on the histogram, and then determine whether or not it is on your primary subject.

In the case of the girl with the dress I'd take a shot in which the face and dress where cropped tightly then adjust exposure based on the rightmost histogram spike the dress created. I'd then use the exposure settings determined from evaluating the test to shoot in M mode so if I zoomed wider a lighter or darker background or external source like a window wouldn't skew a TTL exposure.

CG

C_M said:

C_M said:

I actually find that the 5D is probably the most common camera for
wedding use. I only know 1 photographer using a Fuji.

Click to expand...

Jeez I have to come more often to Canada (I travel alot). My
experience has been the opposite: not only most wedding pros I know
use Fuji DSLRs, those using Nikons & canons (5D mainly) have added
a S3/5 to their arsenal for those high DR situations & for their
excellent OOC output.

C_M said:

Watching
your exposure and shooting in Raw will allow you to easily maintain
both highlight and shadow detail using most DSLRs.

Click to expand...

You must shoot in pretty flat lighting then I always need all the
DR I can get, & sometimes which my camera could capture a bit more.

For the record: no, you it is not easy to maintain both highlight
& shadow detail in RAW in most DSLRs, 'cos of
a) the limited (compared to Fuji DSLRs) DR to begin with &
b)the amount of PP time needed.

Click to expand...

I shot over a hundred wedding back when using just two Canon 10D bodies....and that is in bright sunlight. I've done more beach wedding then I can count, so I'm not sure why you'd have such a problem maintaining highlights.

C_M said:

C_M said:

I'll second the opinion of film. There is NO DSLR out there that
can match Fuji Pro160S for dynamic range. But that said, I've got
no problems with digital in this regard.

Click to expand...

Then I envy you ) Yep, I envy you, 'cos rarely if ever do i
encounter lighting situations where a Nikon D200 or a Canon 5D (we
use those as well in our studios) can easily cope with the DR
inherent in the scene. With the S3/5 on WideDR we can do it in JPEG.

Click to expand...

I don't use JPG for weddings. But like I said, processing the Raw files in Capture One, I don't have any problems. That said, my mainstay with MF & LF film are shooting positive films, so I've got very used to working within the limited DR of films like Provia and Astia. A 5D is a snap to use after that.

C_M said:

Horses for courses, as they say. You have found the right tool for
your job; but others will need different tools; hence this
discussion in this thread.

Interesting thread.

Click to expand...

C_M said:

Martin Caie said:

Expose to preserve the dress. The more you underexpose, the lower
you can have your ISO whilst preserving shutter speed. This means
you don't lose anything in terms of image quality by increasing
noise when you increase exposure compensation during post.

Click to expand...

(Incorrect, but anyway.)

C_M said:

Cameras
like the Fuji are nice but are not offering anything you can't do
yourself with a higher-quality camera like the D200 or 5D.

Click to expand...

Subtle form of brand-bashing, but completely false.

Click to expand...

Not really....

C_M said:

Neither the D200 or the 5D can compete ith the Fujifilm S3/5
cameras when it comes to DR. You will encounter situations when the
D200 or the 5D simply can not cope with the amount of DR present in
a scene, even in RAW & underexpsed.

Click to expand...

And the S5 can't compete with the 5D when it comes to resolution and low noise. The S5 does win when it comes to DR as you said. It does depend on what the photographer wants. I find no problems with DR using my 1Ds Mk2 for weddings, but the are times when a little more DR would be nice. I find that the extra resolution for 11x14 prints with the Canon to be a bigger deal than with the lower rez S5.

C_M said:

Try this example for starters:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1020&message=23062402

Click to expand...

Use a combination of manual metering and adjusting the contrst level in the camera.

In the old days, we used special film for this kind of picture. Kodak VPS, and then Portra, and various Fuji films were designed for moderate contrast, in order to cope with this kind of problem.

BAK

Dave Luttmann said:

C_M said:

Neither the D200 or the 5D can compete ith the Fujifilm S3/5
cameras when it comes to DR. You will encounter situations when the
D200 or the 5D simply can not cope with the amount of DR present in
a scene, even in RAW & underexpsed.

Click to expand...

And the S5 can't compete with the 5D when it comes to resolution
and low noise. The S5 does win when it comes to DR as you said.
It does depend on what the photographer wants. I find no problems
with DR using my 1Ds Mk2 for weddings, but the are times when a
little more DR would be nice. I find that the extra resolution for
11x14 prints with the Canon to be a bigger deal than with the lower
rez S5.

Click to expand...

Completely irrelevant to the OP's problem.
The OP needs more DR, not more rez.

That extra rez won't get you any detail if the dress is blown.

An different (but relevant) example where the extra DR of Fuji DSLRs comes in handy is the one below. It was either blow the b'ground, or get the subject too dark......or use a Fuji DSLR in RAW:

The Davinator said:

The Davinator said:

Try this example for starters:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1020&message=23062402

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

C_M said:

Dave Luttmann said:

C_M said:

Neither the D200 or the 5D can compete ith the Fujifilm S3/5
cameras when it comes to DR. You will encounter situations when the
D200 or the 5D simply can not cope with the amount of DR present in
a scene, even in RAW & underexpsed.

Click to expand...

And the S5 can't compete with the 5D when it comes to resolution
and low noise. The S5 does win when it comes to DR as you said.
It does depend on what the photographer wants. I find no problems
with DR using my 1Ds Mk2 for weddings, but the are times when a
little more DR would be nice. I find that the extra resolution for
11x14 prints with the Canon to be a bigger deal than with the lower
rez S5.

Click to expand...

Completely irrelevant to the OP's problem.
The OP needs more DR, not more rez.

That extra rez won't get you any detail if the dress is blown.

Click to expand...

As I mentioned, I don't seem to blow highlights with Canon gear. YMMV. However, if my post is not relevant....than neither is yours as I responded directly to you.

C_M said:

An different (but relevant) example where the extra DR of Fuji
DSLRs comes in handy is the one below. It was either blow the
b'ground, or get the subject too dark......or use a Fuji DSLR in
RAW:

C_M said:

C_M said:

Try this example for starters:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1020&message=23062402

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

....the last word?

Take it.

handsomer426 said:

I only shoot RAW and PS is an option but there are just to many
pictures to go throu. Anyone else?

Click to expand...

Since you shoot RAW, there's good reason to looking into the following: Are you familiar with Aperture (Mac only) or Lightroom? CS3 Bridge will do what I'm about to describe as will C1 and some others, certainly, but I'll describe what I use - Lightroom.

In LR you can select a group of images that have a similar problem (such as your highlights) process one image to make the necessary changes, then with the Sync button, have all the images I've selected changed by the same increments. I can then fine tune any that need a little different touch. It's simple, and pretty easy to learn.

Lightroom has the added advantage of being able to sync color adjustments, hue, saturation, cropping, curves, sharpening and - especially nice - dust spot correction. In other words, correct one image for dust spots (hey, they don't move frame to frame, after all) and have them removed from all frames by the click of a button.
--
jrbehm
http://www.studiob-productions.com

--I dont know your setup.

But, I have never had a problem when shooting with my 20D's and 580Ex using an OMNI Bounce along with and attached bounce reflector as seen on photos..Link below.
http://www.pbase.com/vaughn/image/57538489

Heres my point. I shoot most all my shots inclusing brides with my flash angled up at approx 45 degrees.. The attached white reflector throws some of that light back down on the subject.

I center and lock exposure on the face and fire. If I am up close I set my flash -2/3.. but since the flash is not firing directly forward, the dress is almost never blown out and the subject face and arms are well exposed.

Sometimes the answer is right in front of you. Sometimes its your camera setup that only needs some adjustment. Practice makes pefect as you learn how to rely on the end result before you take the exposure.

Frankly some of the answers I have read on this post get very technical and it is normally the easiest solution that is the best.

Regards,

Vaughn T. Winfree
Friends Don't Let Friends Shoot Film
GET - R - DONE!!!!!!!

pBase supporter http://www.pBase.com/vaughn

when you process your RAW file, just bring down the highlights and bump up the brightness to adjust for the overall exposure, or make a custom curve. The new CS3 has a new "Highlight recovery" feature that works well.

Nope, it's completely correct sorry. And the S5 doesn't do anything you can't do on your computer, while it wastes sensor space doing it in-camera. I hate HDR images, to be sure, but will work in layers or dodge and burn as needed for weddings and portrait work.

C_M said:

Martin Caie said:

Expose to preserve the dress. The more you underexpose, the lower
you can have your ISO whilst preserving shutter speed. This means
you don't lose anything in terms of image quality by increasing
noise when you increase exposure compensation during post.

Click to expand...

(Incorrect, but anyway.)

C_M said:

Cameras
like the Fuji are nice but are not offering anything you can't do
yourself with a higher-quality camera like the D200 or 5D.

Click to expand...

Subtle form of brand-bashing, but completely false.

Neither the D200 or the 5D can compete ith the Fujifilm S3/5
cameras when it comes to DR. You will encounter situations when the
D200 or the 5D simply can not cope with the amount of DR present in
a scene, even in RAW & underexpsed.

Try this example for starters:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1020&message=23062402

Click to expand...

personally I would rather have the face correctly exposed. If the face is correctly exposed, the problem could be glare off the dress or the dress being in different light to the face. You see this happen under an awning, wher the light is bright down low and less bright gradually as you go higher, or where the floor is light or glary. If her face is turned away from the light and the dress turned into the light you will get this also. UV fabric whiteners coupled with fake tans is one of my pet hates on a bride.

Yes I admit you're correct: the earth IS flat!

Your statements are so incredibly ludicrous, & so pomposusly arrogant given the TON of info on this site alone (let alone the web), that thaye are purely infantile at best.

Read the S3 review on this site....you'll ahve to go back, 'cos Fuji introduced this technology on DSLRs in 2004.

Wake up!

Sorry, but I didn't buy a 2-in-1 sensor for the same reason I didn't buy a TV that's also a VCR or a monitor that's also a computer. Compromise always reduces performance.

Martin Caie said:

Sorry, but I didn't buy a 2-in-1 sensor for the same reason I
didn't buy a TV that's also a VCR or a monitor that's also a
computer. Compromise always reduces performance.

Click to expand...

Still makes look like one who opened his mouth without thinking, given the H_U_G_E amount of posts & info on the amazing capabilities of Fuji DSLRs;
but at least you've implicitly admitted Fuji's breakthrough development.

I'm ready to state that for at least 90% of users (closer to 99% I suspect), real life usage commands less than the 6mp/12mp interpolated/8+ rez of the Fuji DSLRs.

The rest is pixel peeping, bragging rights & assumptions based on obscurantist methodology, but anyway.

Try this with a NON-Fuji DSLR, all from ONE raw exposure:
(many times you simply can NOT barcket shots)
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1020&message=23062402

Enjoy.

Vaughn T.Winfree said:

--I dont know your setup.
But, I have never had a problem when shooting with my 20D's and
580Ex using an OMNI Bounce along with and attached bounce reflector
as seen on photos..Link below.
http://www.pbase.com/vaughn/image/57538489

Click to expand...

Hey Vaughn

Your explanation is appreciated. It makes sense to me. On your pbase account IMG_4459 brilliant exposure. Do you remember the focal length the Meta data for it?

Vaughn T.Winfree said:

Heres my point. I shoot most all my shots inclusing brides with my
flash angled up at approx 45 degrees.. The attached white reflector
throws some of that light back down on the subject.
I center and lock exposure on the face and fire. If I am up close I

Click to expand...

Lock exposure on the face And compose you shoot then fire? do you mean? also, what exporsure mode would you use?

Vaughn T.Winfree said:

set my flash -2/3.. but since the flash is not firing directly
forward, the dress is almost never blown out and the subject face
and arms are well exposed.

Sometimes the answer is right in front of you. Sometimes its your
camera setup that only needs some adjustment. Practice makes pefect
as you learn how to rely on the end result before you take the
exposure.
Frankly some of the answers I have read on this post get very
technical and it is normally the easiest solution that is the best.

Regards,

Vaughn T. Winfree
Friends Don't Let Friends Shoot Film
GET - R - DONE!!!!!!!

pBase supporter http://www.pBase.com/vaughn

Click to expand...

Sorry, but that shot used layers. I also don't like the blended result but it doesn't matter as any raw-saving camera could do it if the user so desired.

C_M said:

Martin Caie said:

Sorry, but I didn't buy a 2-in-1 sensor for the same reason I
didn't buy a TV that's also a VCR or a monitor that's also a
computer. Compromise always reduces performance.

Click to expand...

Still makes look like one who opened his mouth without thinking,
given the H_U_G_E amount of posts & info on the amazing
capabilities of Fuji DSLRs;
but at least you've implicitly admitted Fuji's breakthrough
development.

I'm ready to state that for at least 90% of users (closer to 99% I
suspect), real life usage commands less than the 6mp/12mp
interpolated/8+ rez of the Fuji DSLRs.

The rest is pixel peeping, bragging rights & assumptions based on
obscurantist methodology, but anyway.

Try this with a NON-Fuji DSLR, all from ONE raw exposure:
(many times you simply can NOT barcket shots)
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1020&message=23062402

Enjoy.

Click to expand...

Martin Caie said:

Sorry, but that shot used layers. I also don't like the blended
result but it doesn't matter as any raw-saving camera could do it
if the user so desired.

Click to expand...

....open your eyes to reality & read.....

NO camera on the market as of today, will capture that range in a SINGLE capture; except a Fuji S3/5.

None, nada, no 5D or D2x or 30d.

So sandwiching 2 images from a SINGLE raw shot from ALL other DSLRs is useless because the info is simply not there.

Only a Fuji S3/5 can do that.

In JPG the Fuji DSLRs capture even more raw than most DSLRs do in raw, go figure.

Martin, you do get it now, do you?