AF-C..?

The reason it would be OK for panning, is that the entire bike/rider combo is almost on the same plane.

Also the group dynamic theory of tracking movement from sensor to sensor doesn't really work all the time. The camera has no idea which part of the bike you want to focus on, so it can't track it from sensor to sensor. This feature works when an entire object moves between sensors (like a bird), but not when parts of an object move between sensors (like the rider Vs the wheel).

--
Jamie

Love Your Work.

http://www.australianimages.com.au
http://www.firestations.nsw.gov.au/dunheved
http://www.firestations.nsw.gov.au/penrith
 
James, we have the same lens as you, but use it on a D2Hs (I am
also familiar with MX, though not the D200 - our collection is an
F5, a D100 and the D2Hs).
Awesome lens, eh..? I love it..!
I am 99% certain your main problem is closest subject priority.
This setting is, in my experience, a can of worms, only to be used
when it really, really is needed (which is very unusual). Turn it
off and use either group matrix or spot, and I am sure the problem
will go away.
May be a difference in the cams, but. in retrospect, I had the same problem b4 using Closest Subject.
btw, I've found with the big Sig that shifting to centre-weighted
metering also helps. I've had some lively debates hereabouts about
whether metering affects AF, but, in my experience (and some
objective testing) it does. And you want to be metering on the
bikes anyway.
I had never heard of this. I use matrix/mult-pattern, and always dial in either -0.3 or -0.7 EV, to account for hotspots on shiney objects, like the tops of helmets, rims, etc.

I don't know if it affects focus, but matrix with a slight negative EV is accurate, with no blown highlights and good shadow detail 99.9% of the time for me.

In fact, after I take an initial meter reading on the available light, check the histo, then dial in the appropriate EV, and never have to check the histo again, even though I usually shoot about 300 images in a day, over about a 2 hour period. My point, I'd hate to lose this kind of metering efficiency. But I'll experiment with it, to see if it makes a difference.
Oh - also turn AFC frame rate to "Focus" (slows it slightly but not
noticeably), and turn Focus Lock to "off". This one's very
important. It introduces (when turned on) a delay in shifting focus
points if distance suddenly changes. I'm not sure about the D200,
but on the 2Hs it makes far more trouble than it can ever cure.
Turn it off, and the camera comes alive.
I already use Focus Priority, but according to the Nikonians article, focus lock just means that the cam will track your object once focus is locked by half press of shutter. I believe, 50 milliseconds is all it takes to refocus, and the D200 even accounts for this.

From Nikonians article:

Subject IS moving: Predictive Focus Tracking figures out how far the subject will move before the shutter fires. Once you’ve pressed the shutter button all the way down it moves the lens elements slightly to correspond to where the subject should be when the shutter fires a few milliseconds later. In other words, it focuses slightly in front of your subject so that the camera has time to move the mirror and get the shutter blades out of the way.

It takes 50 milliseconds for the camera to respond to pressing the shutter release. If you are shooting an Airshow, for instance, in 50 milliseconds a fast moving airplane can move enough to slightly change the focus area by the time the shutter opens.

If you press the shutter in one smooth motion all the way to shutter release, first autofocus occurs, then the mirror moves up and the shutter starts opening. That takes the previously mentioned 50 milliseconds. In the time it takes for the camera to respond to your shutter release press, the airplane has moved slightly, which just barely throws the autofocus off. The camera’s computer predicts where the airplane will be when the image is actually exposed, and adjusts the focus accordingly.

I appreciate your input and suggestions. This thread has helped me to analyze this problem, and the only common denominator I can think of is the fact that my subject has been much smaller in these head on or back on shots, since I am poised for a pan when the subjects get much closer, and only take the head on or back on shots as a fore- or afterthought. On Friday, I will experiment with zooming in, framing tight, for head ons, to see if this will make a difference.

Thanks, again.
I hope this helps

Regards

Ewen Cameron
Kent, UK
--
james

PHOTOGRAPHS:
http://www.betterphoto.com/gallery/free/gallery.asp?memberID=158378
 
For motocrossers coming towards you AF-C with group dynamic and
closest priority may not be a good combination.

With these settings, the camera will most likely focus on the front
wheel of the bike, rather than the rider. (I assume there would be
a focus sensor on the wheel/guard, and it's closer to you than the
rider). If you have a short DOF then the rider will be OOF.
This does seem to be a contributing factor, as I need to narrow the focus to just the rider, not the bike, so the large center 11-area sensor may not be the right one to get the job done.
Try turning off group dynamic, and just sticking to AF-C and put a
focus sensor on the rider. If it's hard to track you can try
fiddling with the lock-on delay setting to hold the focus.
Hi, Jamie,,,

I will try not using group dynamic, but as I stated earlier, nothing in the shots in question is in sharp focus, which leads me to believe it is motion blur--the focus sensor is on the rider, not the back- or foreground, so they woudn't be in focus, yet no part of the rider or bike is in perfect focus.

Thanks 4 your input.
--
james

PHOTOGRAPHS:
http://www.betterphoto.com/gallery/free/gallery.asp?memberID=158378
 
The reason it would be OK for panning, is that the entire
bike/rider combo is almost on the same plane.

Also the group dynamic theory of tracking movement from sensor to
sensor doesn't really work all the time. The camera has no idea
which part of the bike you want to focus on, so it can't track it
from sensor to sensor. This feature works when an entire object
moves between sensors (like a bird), but not when parts of an
object move between sensors (like the rider Vs the wheel).

--
Jamie

Love Your Work.

http://www.australianimages.com.au
http://www.firestations.nsw.gov.au/dunheved
http://www.firestations.nsw.gov.au/penrith
I'm not sure specifics of the algorithms involved in predictive focus tracking, but in group dynamic, with 11-area focus sensors, all 11 sensors are active all of the time, and this works amazingly well when panning.

--james

PHOTOGRAPHS:
http://www.betterphoto.com/gallery/free/gallery.asp?memberID=158378
 
Jamie Benaud wrote:
This feature works when an entire object
moves between sensors (like a bird), but not when parts of an
object move between sensors (like the rider Vs the wheel).

--
Jamie

Love Your Work.

http://www.australianimages.com.au
http://www.firestations.nsw.gov.au/dunheved
http://www.firestations.nsw.gov.au/penrith
I forgot to add, the blur on the wheels is from rotation, and is desirable.

--james

PHOTOGRAPHS:
http://www.betterphoto.com/gallery/free/gallery.asp?memberID=158378
 
I just think the autofocus is not updating fast enough when the object is traveling towards you. The D200 does not have the same the wonderful Multicam 2000 of the D2H(s) and the D2X(s). If you want to maximize the focusing speed of the D200 you will need to drop closest subject and group dynamic. These things slow down the focusing engine. Figure out the composition you want and use the single focusing point for that composition.

Focusing speed on the D200 from fastest updating to slowest...

Single Area AF
Single Area Dynamic AF
Group Dynamic AF
Closest Subject Priority Dynamic AF

The less calculations the camera has to make the quicker it can update the focusing.

Gary
 
Oh - also turn AFC frame rate to "Focus" (slows it slightly but not
noticeably), and turn Focus Lock to "off". This one's very
important. It introduces (when turned on) a delay in shifting focus
points if distance suddenly changes. I'm not sure about the D200,
but on the 2Hs it makes far more trouble than it can ever cure.
Turn it off, and the camera comes alive.
I already use Focus Priority, but according to the Nikonians
article, focus lock just means that the cam will track your object
once focus is locked by half press of shutter. I believe, 50
milliseconds is all it takes to refocus, and the D200 even accounts
for this.
Focus Lock is a delay that Nikon uses to ignore sudden movements. But I very much doubt you want a delay. Turn Focus Lock off.

--
http://photography.sergeant.org/
 
I just think the autofocus is not updating fast enough when the
object is traveling towards you. The D200 does not have the same
the wonderful Multicam 2000 of the D2H(s) and the D2X(s). If you
want to maximize the focusing speed of the D200 you will need to
drop closest subject and group dynamic. These things slow down the
focusing engine. Figure out the composition you want and use the
single focusing point for that composition.

Focusing speed on the D200 from fastest updating to slowest...

Single Area AF
Single Area Dynamic AF
Group Dynamic AF
Closest Subject Priority Dynamic AF

The less calculations the camera has to make the quicker it can
update the focusing.
Gary, I'm not doubting your speed summary (it makes some logical sense), but I would like to read about this some more myself. Do you have any references or sources of information I could read that talk about this speed of focus issue vs. features enabled? I own a D2Xs.
--
John
Popular: http://jfriend.smugmug.com/popular
Portfolio: http://jfriend.smugmug.com/portfolio
 
I just think the autofocus is not updating fast enough when the
object is traveling towards you. The D200 does not have the same
the wonderful Multicam 2000 of the D2H(s) and the D2X(s). If you
want to maximize the focusing speed of the D200 you will need to
drop closest subject and group dynamic. These things slow down the
focusing engine. Figure out the composition you want and use the
single focusing point for that composition.

Focusing speed on the D200 from fastest updating to slowest...

Single Area AF
Single Area Dynamic AF
Group Dynamic AF
Closest Subject Priority Dynamic AF

The less calculations the camera has to make the quicker it can
update the focusing.

Gary
Thanks, Gary..!

One thing, I just learned, the difference between CL and CH, low and high motor drive respectively. I've always used CL, so I'm going to give CH a try.

--
james

PHOTOGRAPHS:
http://www.betterphoto.com/gallery/free/gallery.asp?memberID=158378
 
I just think the autofocus is not updating fast enough when the
object is traveling towards you. The D200 does not have the same
the wonderful Multicam 2000 of the D2H(s) and the D2X(s). If you
want to maximize the focusing speed of the D200 you will need to
drop closest subject and group dynamic. These things slow down the
focusing engine. Figure out the composition you want and use the
single focusing point for that composition.

Focusing speed on the D200 from fastest updating to slowest...

Single Area AF
Single Area Dynamic AF
Group Dynamic AF
Closest Subject Priority Dynamic AF

The less calculations the camera has to make the quicker it can
update the focusing.
Gary, I'm not doubting your speed summary (it makes some logical
sense), but I would like to read about this some more myself. Do
you have any references or sources of information I could read that
talk about this speed of focus issue vs. features enabled? I own a
D2Xs.
--
John
Popular: http://jfriend.smugmug.com/popular
Portfolio: http://jfriend.smugmug.com/portfolio
Hi, John,,,

Nikonians recommends leaving focus lock on:

Nikon D200 Custom Setting A5 – Lock On® – Should I Use It?

This is a technology that has a lot of misunderstanding surrounding it. Since it is designed to cause the autofocus to hesitate for a variable time period before seeking a new subject it may seem to make the camera seem sluggish to some users. But, this “sluggishness” is really a feature designed to keep you from losing your subject’s tracked focus.

Once the camera “Locks On” to a subject’s area of focus, it tries its best to stay with that subject, even if it loses the subject briefly. That keeps the lens from racking in and out, and searching for a new subject as soon as the previous subject is no longer under an AF sensor.

It also causes the camera to ignore other higher-contrast situations, or closer intruding subjects while it follows your original subject. You will have to judge the usefulness of this technology for yourself. I suggest that you go to some event you are familiar with and track moving objects with and without Lock On enabled. Your style of photography has a strong bearing on how you’ll use it, or whether you’ll use Focus Tracking with Lock

For moving subjects like a flying bird, a race car or cycle, or even a bride and groom walking up the aisle, I would suggest the following:

AF-C Continuous Servo AF

CL Continuous Low motor drive or CH – Continuous High motor drive according to the speed of the subject.
AF Mode Dynamic Area AF
a5 Custom Setting set to ON (enabled Lock-On)
a1 Custom Setting set to Focus Priority (forces ONLY in-focus shots)

I was already using all of the above settings, except, CH. Plus, I started using closest subject priority and got better results for what I'm shooting than without it. I was also using "short" lock on, and have changed that to "long."

Hopefully, these results, plus filling the frame with more of the subject will make the difference.

Thanks 4 your input..!

--
james

PHOTOGRAPHS:
http://www.betterphoto.com/gallery/free/gallery.asp?memberID=158378
 
A few months ago I wrote an article to summarize my experience with the D2X autofocus.

http://www.luminescentphoto.com/articles/CAM2000/cam2000.html

In a nutshell, when the subject is moving towards you or away from you, you need to be cognizant of the "lock-on" feature. The delay that Lock-on introduces into the AF algorithm is great when tracking objects that are moving laterally, but can induce problems if your subject is moving towards you. Simply put, the camera is "trained" to momentarily ignore a rapid change in subject distance-- the idea is that when this happens, it is probably because your AF sensor is suddenly shifted from its intended target. However, when your intended subject is actually changing distance to you, you want to disable the Lock-ON feature.

-Jason

--
Author, 'The Photographer's Guide to Capture NX'
Visit my website at: http://www.luminescentphoto.com
 
This is quite an interesting thread. I've always left focus lock on normal but will give it a try on off and see how I get on.

I've been taking pictures of mountain bikers, onviously not as fast as MotoX but I'm usually very close to the action and use wider lenses (sometimes only a couple of feet away with a fisheye). I've found that by using AF-C and single area dynamic that I can get good results, even with non AF-S type lenses. I tend to pre-focus slightly closer than the point I intend to shoot at and also pan with the subject with rear synch flash. Seems to work well.

Here's an example: D200 Tamron 17-50 f2.8 at 50mm f2.8 1/250 with on board flash (no cropping so pretty close up)



--
Hamish

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hamish's photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/flyingpie/
 
Yes, but it will only shift focus in certain situations, once
you've locked onto your subject. It also has a setting whereby you
can delay this shifting.
But as I said above, I don't see the cam focusing on any one point
in particular, which leads me to believe that I am getting motion
blur.
At this risk of missing the obvious in this earlier post of yours while we all opine about focus settings in the camera, you say that maybe you're getting motion blur. What shutter speed are you using? Can you post any blurred examples (probably need a full size link) so we can offer diagnosis opinions ourselves?

For a subject you are panning with, you don't need nearly as fast a shutter speed as one you are not panning with. The panning slows down the subject motion relative to the sensor allowing sharp pics at fairly slow shutter speeds (with good panning technique). You don't get that benefit when the subject is coming at you and you can't pan effectively.

Is it possible that your shutter speed isn't fast enough for fast moving motorbikes when you aren't panning?
--
John
Popular: http://jfriend.smugmug.com/popular
Portfolio: http://jfriend.smugmug.com/portfolio
 
James Cover wrote:

Even though I was on your silly list, AF-C (works fine), single area ,Lock-normal , center sensor always

70-200vr
Exposure time: 0.0016 s (1/640)
Aperture: f/2.8
ISO equiv.: 180

last frame of burst 100%



burst



2.8

 
James,

I shoot a D2H and a good bit of lacrosse. I track players everywhere and I want the focus to update as quick as possible. I use the Single Area AF 99% of the time along with shooting Ch (continuous high).

I also like to shoot tight...









I don't make it to many MX events but I will be at the Steel City event over Labor Day to see Ricky Carmichael ending his career. :)
I just think the autofocus is not updating fast enough when the
object is traveling towards you. The D200 does not have the same
the wonderful Multicam 2000 of the D2H(s) and the D2X(s). If you
want to maximize the focusing speed of the D200 you will need to
drop closest subject and group dynamic. These things slow down the
focusing engine. Figure out the composition you want and use the
single focusing point for that composition.

Focusing speed on the D200 from fastest updating to slowest...

Single Area AF
Single Area Dynamic AF
Group Dynamic AF
Closest Subject Priority Dynamic AF

The less calculations the camera has to make the quicker it can
update the focusing.

Gary
Thanks, Gary..!

One thing, I just learned, the difference between CL and CH, low
and high motor drive respectively. I've always used CL, so I'm
going to give CH a try.

--
james

PHOTOGRAPHS:
http://www.betterphoto.com/gallery/free/gallery.asp?memberID=158378
 
I read the information provided by Jason Odell a while back on muticam 2000. I would assume the same progressive slowdown in the multicam 1000 system of the D200. See the post from Jason lower down in this thread.

Gary
I just think the autofocus is not updating fast enough when the
object is traveling towards you. The D200 does not have the same
the wonderful Multicam 2000 of the D2H(s) and the D2X(s). If you
want to maximize the focusing speed of the D200 you will need to
drop closest subject and group dynamic. These things slow down the
focusing engine. Figure out the composition you want and use the
single focusing point for that composition.

Focusing speed on the D200 from fastest updating to slowest...

Single Area AF
Single Area Dynamic AF
Group Dynamic AF
Closest Subject Priority Dynamic AF

The less calculations the camera has to make the quicker it can
update the focusing.
Gary, I'm not doubting your speed summary (it makes some logical
sense), but I would like to read about this some more myself. Do
you have any references or sources of information I could read that
talk about this speed of focus issue vs. features enabled? I own a
D2Xs.
--
John
Popular: http://jfriend.smugmug.com/popular
Portfolio: http://jfriend.smugmug.com/portfolio
 
James,

I shoot a D2H and a good bit of lacrosse. I track players
everywhere and I want the focus to update as quick as possible. I
use the Single Area AF 99% of the time along with shooting Ch
(continuous high).

I also like to shoot tight...
I agree.

From my D2Xs experience shooting soccer, I am convinced that one key ingredient to accurate focus in my circumstances is shooting tight. My camera will nail focus 100% of the time if I'm tight and will miss sometimes when I'm not. My theory is that "tight" just gives the focus sensor much better data to work with. For this reason, I never use the "crop mode" in the D2Xs for soccer because it doesn't grab focus as well since, by definition, you aren't as tight when using crop mode.
--
John
Popular: http://jfriend.smugmug.com/popular
Portfolio: http://jfriend.smugmug.com/portfolio
 
Oh, and yes, I shoot with the focus lock off. I shoot lots of things wide open and rely on my ability to track the subject with my single focus point. I don't want to risk having the subject drop out of my depth of field with a sudden direction change because my camera didn't think the subject moved enough.

Shooting with a monopod mounted wimberley sidekick really helps in tracking targets though. :)

Gary
 
Oops. I think the middle two should be reversed...

Single Area AF
Group Dynamic AF
Single Area Dynamic AF
Closest Subject Priority Dynamic AF

There are less calculations when more than one sensor are grouped in dynamic mode since the grouped sensors act as one.

Gary
I just think the autofocus is not updating fast enough when the
object is traveling towards you. The D200 does not have the same
the wonderful Multicam 2000 of the D2H(s) and the D2X(s). If you
want to maximize the focusing speed of the D200 you will need to
drop closest subject and group dynamic. These things slow down the
focusing engine. Figure out the composition you want and use the
single focusing point for that composition.

Focusing speed on the D200 from fastest updating to slowest...

Single Area AF
Single Area Dynamic AF
Group Dynamic AF
Closest Subject Priority Dynamic AF

The less calculations the camera has to make the quicker it can
update the focusing.

Gary
 

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