30D best Flash settings 580ex

could some one give me tips on using 30d+580 ex combination please.
my g6 and 420 ex produce much better photos in program mode or AV .
30D AV mode is not the same. help help

--
EOS 30D, EF-S17-55 f2.8, G6 35-135mm f2.0-3.0,
420EX, 580EX

you can put it in program mode in 30D too.
Better, put it in M - let 580 do the exposure.

I'd guess that your photos are blurry because in AV mode, the camera will lower the shutter speed to expose the scene as if flash wasn't there - flash is used as fill.

sanjeeva vancuylenburg said:

could some one give me tips on using 30d+580 ex combination please.
my g6 and 420 ex produce much better photos in program mode or AV .
30D AV mode is not the same. help help

--
EOS 30D, EF-S17-55 f2.8, G6 35-135mm f2.0-3.0,
420EX, 580EX

Click to expand...

thank you very much, I was surprised to see manual mode giving better exposer's. but did not know why. thank you again.
any other tips would be appreciated (using flash)
--
EOS 30D, EF-S17-55 f2.8, G6 35-135mm f2.0-3.0,
420EX, 580EX

sanjeeva vancuylenburg said:

thank you very much, I was surprised to see manual mode giving
better exposer's. but did not know why. thank you again.

Click to expand...

just have to trust the ETTL-II system to do its job. on top of that, as the previous response mentioned that with a faster shutter speed....you are less likely to suffer from motion shake.

sanjeeva vancuylenburg said:

any other tips would be appreciated (using flash)

Click to expand...

generally use M mode for indoor flash work. pick a shutter speed to allow ambient light to be visible in your bg (ie slower shutter speed = more ambient light; but don't pick too slow as that will cause problem with motion shake). aperture to select your dof and amount of flash lighting to your fg subject. play around the FEC to get desired lighting effect (most of the time with bouncing....you may need to increase your FEC by +1/3-2/3).

use Av mode for outdoor fill flash work (though, you may still need to keep an eye on the shutter speed....don't want it to be too slow...motion shake). you may/should decrease your FEC by -2/3-2 for fill flash work outside.

and lastly....i see you have two speedlites....play around with 2 flashes simultaneously....i think you will like the end result much better. it should give you a more 3D lighting effect.

most of all experiment and enjoy.

you will start to see the light.

----------
http://www.pbase.com/antidote3

Canon has an interesting document (PDF) on flash photography that you can download here: http://www.canon-europe.com/Support/Documents/digital_slr_educational_tools/flash_work.asp

I also found the following site to be helpful as well: http://www.planetneil.com/faq/flash-techniques.html

antidote said:

sanjeeva vancuylenburg said:

thank you very much, I was surprised to see manual mode giving
better exposer's. but did not know why. thank you again.

Click to expand...

just have to trust the ETTL-II system to do its job. on top of
that, as the previous response mentioned that with a faster shutter
speed....you are less likely to suffer from motion shake.

antidote said:

any other tips would be appreciated (using flash)

Click to expand...

generally use M mode for indoor flash work. pick a shutter speed
to allow ambient light to be visible in your bg (ie slower shutter
speed = more ambient light; but don't pick too slow as that will
cause problem with motion shake). aperture to select your dof and
amount of flash lighting to your fg subject. play around the FEC
to get desired lighting effect (most of the time with
bouncing....you may need to increase your FEC by +1/3-2/3).

use Av mode for outdoor fill flash work (though, you may still need
to keep an eye on the shutter speed....don't want it to be too
slow...motion shake). you may/should decrease your FEC by -2/3-2
for fill flash work outside.

and lastly....i see you have two speedlites....play around with 2
flashes simultaneously....i think you will like the end result much
better. it should give you a more 3D lighting effect.

most of all experiment and enjoy.

you will start to see the light.

----------
http://www.pbase.com/antidote3

Click to expand...

I like your suggestions. I've already have tried most of them. I shoot JPEGS - I haven't tried RAW yet. Just a couple of questions.

• What do you use for WB in doors? In my fiddling, it seemed like AWB worked the best. Any suggestions?

• My fill flash shots in AV Mode were overexposed. I have to try dialing in minus FEC as you suggested. Once again, what WB do you suggest?

--
Thanks, Ed
Torrance, CA

Touchdown said:

I like your suggestions. I've already have tried most of them. I
shoot JPEGS - I haven't tried RAW yet. Just a couple of questions.

• What do you use for WB in doors? In my fiddling, it seemed like

AWB worked the best. Any suggestions?

Click to expand...

the best solution is to use RAW. that way whatever WB you choose....can be quickly be corrected on whatever RAW software you use. try to choose the WB that fits the situation most accurately, so that your pp RAW conversion would be quick and minimal amount of work. i find AWB the closest for both tungsten and fluorescent (IMO).

it is really hard to suggest a particular type of WB to use when using flash indoors. main reason for this is because the walls and ceilings you used to bounce may not be pure white....hence rendering a colour cast on your subjects. so the best way to correct this is to use RAW.

the other solution (might be a bit tedious) is to use gels. these are made for flash use under two different lighting situations....green gels for fluorescent and orange (i think) for tungsten. you put these gels on your flash prior to shooting.

Touchdown said:

• My fill flash shots in AV Mode were overexposed. I have to try

dialing in minus FEC as you suggested. Once again, what WB do you
suggest?

Click to expand...

with fill flash....the idea is to not make the flash look like a flash. so WB is not an issue because you are just 'filling' the light with your flash. you are trying to blend in with your ambient bg lighting.

actually the above statement would also hold true for indoor flash use....ie to not make the flash use obvious (though in some situations one do want to give it that particular look/feel....the presence of a strong flash 'look').

i am rambling now....

hoped i made some sense. :?

-------
http://www.pbase.com/antidote3

For indoor flash use Mode M 125th of a second @ F/5.6 ISO 200.

For outdoor fill set flash it FP (High Speed) and set camera Mode AV @ f/5.6. Set C.Fn 14 to Disable and C.Fn to Auto.

These setting are suggested by Chuck Gardner who is very knowledgeable about using flash. You can get more information on the Lighting Forum. These are basic settings and you can use FEC to fine tune results.

Glenn

The default metering mode for the 30D is evalutive ambient and evaluative flash. It compares the ambient and flash over 35 zones and then creates a virtual 3D map of what the scene looks like in terms of how far things in each zone are and how much they reflect light. It's logic then tries to factor out things which might be mirror-like reflections or closer than the intended subject and bases the exposure on trying to make the next darker highlights white.

The problem with all that artificial intelligence is that the camera doesn't always get it right. But that's true of any TTL metering system. The camera makes its best guess, then you the photographer need to evaluate it and adjust from the baseline. Evaluative metering will tend to err on the side of not blowing out the detail in the lighter parts of the scene and as a result the scene will tend to look underexposed relative to what you are accustomed to with systems that average the readings more.

You can try two things.

1) Shoot, evaluate, and dial in FEC. With a bit of experience doing that you will find you can usually anticipate the amount of FEC which will be needed in most situations. But once you dial in the amount of FEC needed to expose the highlights correctly the camera will do a good job of keeping that exposure consistent as your distance to the subject changes. But if the overall tone of the scene changes dramatically an adjustment to FEC will be needed. I'm systematic in my approach so I always dial FEC back the the zero baseline before taking my initial test shots. Otherwise I tend to loose track of the setting.

2) Use the camera C.FN to change the flash metering from evaluative to average. Average will tend to more uniformly expose indoor shots. But in mixed fill / ambient situations it may overfill the foreground a bit and overexpose the background more than evaluative does. Even with Average flash metering you will find it necessary to adjust FEC scene-to-scene for best exposure.

I did a test of all 18 possible metring modes on my 20D and posted the results in this tutorial you may find helpful: http://super.nova.org/DPR/Canon/TTL/

See the other hotshoe flash tutorials in the main TOC for more general tips on camera settings.

CG

Glenn Haley said:

For indoor flash use Mode M 125th of a second @ F/5.6 ISO 200.

For outdoor fill set flash it FP (High Speed) and set camera Mode
AV @ f/5.6. Set C.Fn 14 to Disable and C.Fn to Auto.
These setting are suggested by Chuck Gardner who is very
knowledgeable about using flash. You can get more information on
the Lighting Forum. These are basic settings and you can use FEC to
fine tune results.

Glenn

Click to expand...

Hi Glenn

I'm a little confused by your response for outdoor fill flash. I assume you mean to set the flash to FP (High Speed). Setting the 30D to AV @ f5.6 is also clear to me; however, C.Fn 14 only has two choices: Average and Evaluative - I don't understand what you mean by Disable? In addition, I don't understand what C.Fn to Auto means.

If I've missed something obvious, please don't hold that against me as I'm new to the 30D and still learning the terminology etc.
--
Thanks, Ed
Torrance, CA

Touchdown said:

Glenn Haley said:

For indoor flash use Mode M 125th of a second @ F/5.6 ISO 200.

For outdoor fill set flash it FP (High Speed) and set camera Mode
AV @ f/5.6. Set C.Fn 14 to Disable and C.Fn to Auto.
These setting are suggested by Chuck Gardner who is very
knowledgeable about using flash.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Actually the indoor settings above are what I suggest as a starting baseline for flash. They will handle most situations adequately and from there you can adjust shutter for more or less (up to x-sync) ambient and aperture for more or less DOF, and ISO to get more ambience or DOF as needed.

Outdoors I suggest using Av first. In Av the shutter speed will vary to keep the ambient lit background consistent but will not affect the flash unless the camera hits the x-sync limit. Outdoor shooting is so variable I don't actually suggest a starting aperture point, but I do suggest using a flash like the EX series with high speed FP mode so the x-sync limit of 1/200th to 1/500th on most cameras doesn't limit aperture selection to f/8 and above in bright sun / fill flash situations. The caveat there however it that the range of the flash drops in high speed FP mode.

There are situations outdoors such as strong backlight where M mode will work better. It will also keep the exposure more consistent shot-to-shot if the lighting is consistent but the composition of the scene changes. Often I'll shoot a test shot in Av mode, evaluate, then switch to M to keep all background exposures consistent.

The complete tutorial on exposure can be found here:
http://super.nova.org/DPR/Canon/Exposure/

Touchdown said:

Hi Glenn

I'm a little confused by your response for outdoor fill flash. I
assume you mean to set the flash to FP (High Speed). Setting the
30D to AV @ f5.6 is also clear to me; however, C.Fn 14 only has two
choices: Average and Evaluative - I don't understand what you mean
by Disable? In addition, I don't understand what C.Fn to Auto
means.

Click to expand...

Not sure if Glen is referring to my advice regarding C.Fn 14 or not but I just leave my camera in its default evaluative E-TTL II mode. I've tested all the modes and found Evaluative to work the best in mixed lighting situations. See http://super.nova.org/DPR/Canon/TTL/ for the comparison test.

The other C.Fn reference I believe refers to the explanation of how auto fill reduction works on older Canon bodies in the http://super.nova.org/DPR/Canon/Exposure/ tutorial. On E-TTL camera bodies there fill flash is automatically reduced in bright lighting conditions and there is an auto-fill C.Fn to turn that automatic reduction off. That function was eliminated when E-TTL II was introduced so it does not apply to the 30D.

Touchdown said:

If I've missed something obvious, please don't hold that against me
as I'm new to the 30D and still learning the terminology etc.

Click to expand...

CG

Chuck Gardner said:

Touchdown said:

Glenn Haley said:

For indoor flash use Mode M 125th of a second @ F/5.6 ISO 200.

For outdoor fill set flash it FP (High Speed) and set camera Mode
AV @ f/5.6. Set C.Fn 14 to Disable and C.Fn to Auto.
These setting are suggested by Chuck Gardner who is very
knowledgeable about using flash.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Actually the indoor settings above are what I suggest as a starting
baseline for flash. They will handle most situations adequately
and from there you can adjust shutter for more or less (up to
x-sync) ambient and aperture for more or less DOF, and ISO to get
more ambience or DOF as needed.

Outdoors I suggest using Av first. In Av the shutter speed will
vary to keep the ambient lit background consistent but will not
affect the flash unless the camera hits the x-sync limit. Outdoor
shooting is so variable I don't actually suggest a starting
aperture point, but I do suggest using a flash like the EX series
with high speed FP mode so the x-sync limit of 1/200th to 1/500th
on most cameras doesn't limit aperture selection to f/8 and above
in bright sun / fill flash situations. The caveat there however it
that the range of the flash drops in high speed FP mode.

There are situations outdoors such as strong backlight where M mode
will work better. It will also keep the exposure more consistent
shot-to-shot if the lighting is consistent but the composition of
the scene changes. Often I'll shoot a test shot in Av mode,
evaluate, then switch to M to keep all background exposures
consistent.

The complete tutorial on exposure can be found here:
http://super.nova.org/DPR/Canon/Exposure/

Chuck Gardner said:

Hi Glenn

I'm a little confused by your response for outdoor fill flash. I
assume you mean to set the flash to FP (High Speed). Setting the
30D to AV @ f5.6 is also clear to me; however, C.Fn 14 only has two
choices: Average and Evaluative - I don't understand what you mean
by Disable? In addition, I don't understand what C.Fn to Auto
means.

Click to expand...

Not sure if Glen is referring to my advice regarding C.Fn 14 or not
but I just leave my camera in its default evaluative E-TTL II mode.
I've tested all the modes and found Evaluative to work the best in
mixed lighting situations. See
http://super.nova.org/DPR/Canon/TTL/ for the comparison test.

The other C.Fn reference I believe refers to the explanation of how
auto fill reduction works on older Canon bodies in the
http://super.nova.org/DPR/Canon/Exposure/ tutorial. On E-TTL
camera bodies there fill flash is automatically reduced in bright
lighting conditions and there is an auto-fill C.Fn to turn that
automatic reduction off. That function was eliminated when E-TTL
II was introduced so it does not apply to the 30D.

Chuck Gardner said:

If I've missed something obvious, please don't hold that against me
as I'm new to the 30D and still learning the terminology etc.

Click to expand...

CG

Click to expand...

Hi Chuck

Very clear and informative explanation. All I have to do is to use this info in the real world.
--
Thanks, Ed
Torrance, CA

Chuck,

its always a pleasure to see you contributing here on Dpreview -- you are the best!

For me,

Outdoors (sunny day):

1) Shoot in RAW and JPEG (so you can have best of both worlds).

2) Set camera to:

-AV mode--select desired apreture (f5.6 or 8.0 based on a single person or group shot).
-ISO 100
-AUTO white balance

3) Leave the camera's FEC to dead zero and flash metering (found in custom functions mode) to Evaluating .

4) Turn on HSS (High speed sync) on flash to overide x-sync shutter speed limit and just TRUST the camera to do its thing. Or better yet, read your luminance histogram after each shot to prevent clipping highlights.

I find it very hard to fool the E-TTL 2 flash metering system, just trust in it to do its thing!

For Indoors:

If you like to use bounce flash:

1) Set ISO 800, AUTO white balance, and just shoot. Read your histogram and add FEC if underexposed (this wiill depend on the ceiling height).

If you aren't close to a wall or ceiling:

1) Set to direct flash, ISO 400, no FEC, AUTO white balance, and just shoot. Even in direct mode, the 580ex is very very conservative from blowing out details (meaning its very gentle).

I mad e a mistake when I stated the C.Fn numbers. They are the C.Fn numbers for the 10D and not for the 30D.

Sorry about that.

Glenn