What did Foveon do???

I don't mind answering those questions myself but I can see where
people get tired of the same questions being asked many times
(though again this thread was not really a case of that I don't
think).
Maybe the questions are asked by different persons and they don't have the slightest idea that you are tired of the question?
I would say, that if some people do not find some messages from
people funny they should also take the lesson of civility to heart
by simply not responding to those messages instead of posting
something nasty in return.
I don't think we have read the same thread. Or maybe we have different definitions of funny and nasty.

--
Roland
 
Hello again Sandy

I would wish that the people you talk about used their vast
experience to let images speak for them (like Carl, Olga, Bob,
Georges do), instead of resorting to uncivilised behaviour. There
are some decent photographers here, exposed at PMA or not, that
destroy their own reputation.
Images are great, but only go so far - some words must be countered with words.

I let images speak when I can, but if I have something to say that needs to be expressed in words I say that too.

As for reputation... that is almost meaningless on the internet, since at any point in time the number of people reading your words who have seen past writings is vanishingly small next to the number of people who are mere visitors passing through. It is of small interest to regulars on a board, but that's about it - and I doubt any of the people who Sandy is talking about have hurt reputations much at all compared to slash and burn complaints of detractors with childish repetitive negativity. It's fine for people to mention problems, but when people bring up the same issues in every thread regardless of topic it's simply too much and they are trolling, it's as simple as that.

--
---> Kendall
http://InsideAperture.com
http://www.pbase.com/kgelner
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/user_home
 
Maybe the questions are asked by different persons and they don't
have the slightest idea that you are tired of the question?
Of course they don't. In theory though that is what search is for, for the times when you are new to a forum and have some burning question. It's my personal belief that people will generally never use search though so you have to get used to many simple questions repeated over and over - FAQ's don't even help, not really - people are fundamentally lazy, which I have nonjudgmentally embraced as a concept. Like I said though I can see where people get annoyed by it, my finance for example reads other forums and she despises repeat questions no matter how I explain my philosophy to her. So really, since those people cannot change either you have to similarly have compassion for those annoyed by repeat requests. Why should their annoyance be any less importance than another's unwillingness to take time to research?
I don't think we have read the same thread. Or maybe we have
different definitions of funny and nasty.
Some people, just cannot get a good joke. Or perhaps have read enough to at least understand he presence of a running joke. That does not mean it is not there or funny to some people. Just like you shouldn't get annoyed with people that post questions they might have repeated, so too should you not be post annoyed responses to jokes even if you don't find them funny.

--
---> Kendall
http://InsideAperture.com
http://www.pbase.com/kgelner
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/user_home
 
Thanks. I only found one comparison that was relevant to my request.

http://www.pbase.com/kazfujieda/image/75283494
http://www.pbase.com/kazfujieda/image/75283693

Crops from upper right corner:

The blue channel is visually more noisy in the SD14 sample than the
SD10 sample. Some pretty heavy NR has been applied. Also to
consider; The SD14 sample was exposed at 1 sec. and f/11, while the
SD10 image was exposed at 0.8 sec. and f/11. In other words, the
SD14 sensor was given slightly more light for this comparison. Even
with this slight advantage, it is not able to deliver a cleaner
blue channel than the SD10.

The other channels are looking good, with practically no difference
as I can see:

It would be much better to compare the noise from the RAW data
directly, preferably with a picture of a color chart taken at a
higher ISO with identical exposure. Personally, in terms of noise,
I doubt that the new sensor in the SD14 is any better than the SD10
sensor. The above comparison is a clear indication of this.

--
Geir
under the lowlight situation, if you process the sd14 raw files using photoshop CS2, the blue channel looks better than from SPP3. so I think this is a software issue and can be improved.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pollux51
 
I invite you to look at the pictures. At the pictures mind you, not the color channels.

Look at them as they are.

Now tell me, which is the better image. I say the SD-14 image is better by a mile. Perhaps the SD-10 blue channel is stronger because of the terrible blue cast which infuses the whole image - but as a viewer, looking at the totality of the image all I can say is that I greatly prefer the SD-14 rendition because the overall noise is lower, and the colors are fantastically better and not faded or cooled as in the SD-10 image.

I don't think it's fair to tsk-tsk the SD-14 image when it seems pretty obvious the life has been sucked out of the SD-10 image to keep the blue channel healthy. The SD-10 blue channel may have won the battle, but it lost the war.

--
---> Kendall
http://InsideAperture.com
http://www.pbase.com/kgelner
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/user_home
 
Don't get carried away with looking at the trees and miss the "forest'....

There is no comparison between these two image - the SD14 is so much better that it's no contest regardless of the "blue channel" ---- geeze ... look at the pictures.

Kendall is absolutely correct...

Lin
 
That's about all you'll ever get from Matson. Deem youself lucky he even deigned to respond to your post. You should feel mightily honoured.

JK
 
For once, someone gets the precise point of a single word.

Much of what was guessed here contributed to the result, but you are absolutely correct that they found something else serendipidously, and that nailed it. You are also correct that they are not discussing it; it is a nasty industry and it is best to exploit what you know while you can. Reading patents will provide insight, however.

Thank you, Roland. And that is said without sarcasm.
Does anybody know what exaclty was
done to improve this?
Yes
That is true. Some at Foveon do. I assume you don´t.

Some here have guessed and/or used the information
we have got.

It would be nice to hear from Foveon about this success
story though. What was the most important reasons for
the improved long exposure characteristics.

It can't be all that dangerous for Foveon to brag some
about how they did it.

I can also make some guesses until then though :)

The increased fill rate is not the answer. The area
of the detectors is approx the same.

The SPP 3.0 is (mostly) not the answer. The SD10
is not near to SD14 when using SPP 3.0.

The dark frame subtraction is a very good candidate
though. Other sensor makers have improved their
characteristics greatly by making better dark frame
subtraction. We have seen that in review after review
here at DPReview.

But - I wonder if dark frame subtraction is the whole
answer. Maybe they have made something to the
actual sensor, e.g. changed the depths. Or maybe the
new partner simply makes better chips.

Or ... ????

--
Roland
--
Laurence

My idea of good company is the fellowship of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation and liberality of ideas.

Jane Austen

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/root
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd10
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com
 
Why does the concept of throwing slop before the swine come to mind?

Might be these images. Might not as well.
--
Laurence

My idea of good company is the fellowship of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation and liberality of ideas.

Jane Austen

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/root
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd10
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com
 
I remember this post from last year and I was actually wondering from the beginning if this has been included in the new sensor:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=19848861

I am aware that we don't need to get a very scientific and in-depth description of what has been improved, just a hint would be enough. I am very happy about this improvement regarding noise!
 
Hello Sandy

I regard most of the regulars here as helpful. Even extremely helpful.
But I do not think that give any right to be uncivil. Do you?

I have a general impression that many of those fruitless 150 post threads have been prolonged by uncivil behavior of regulars.

And I do not think I am alone, as several people have expressed frustrations of the tone used by some of these regulars.

Now, people even write disclaimers in their first post, asking not to be attacked.

I find it sad that regulars here resort to namecalling, suggesting mental diagnosis and other uncivil behviour. It's even more sad that it will not help to point it out.

It's also a little bit amusing that two of the most helpful people, you and Kendall, which also behave very civil, are the only ones of the regulars that try to convince me that I am wrong, or that it is OK the way other speak.

Sandy, since you suggest that I go back and read earlier posts, I can tell you that I have read very much of what has been written here for the last 2,5 years. My first post here (then as NorwegianViking) was 2,5 years ago (exactly two days later than your first post as SandyF)

And, as you might have seen, I am good at keeping track of links. But I prefer not to to prove examples. Either you see this, or you don't. I see it, others see it, you don't.
yvind, anyone: for an interesting analysis of contributions and
credibility, click on any poster's name, especially anyone you
consider negative or unhelpful in this thread. you'll see his/her
posts in total. Read through the posts.
Best regards, Sandy
[email protected]
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann
--
Kind regards
Øyvind Strøm
http://www.norwegianviking.smugmug.com
http://www.pbase.com/norwegianviking
 
Ok, so to the point: if you really need long exposures it might be
better to stack a few ones at 10 seconds than, say, take a single
60 seconds exposure. A remote control or cable is recomended, of
course. I got very nice results in the past using > 20 exposures
Is that true? I would say that the signal is proportional to the
total exposure time and the noise is proportional to the square
root of the total exposure time - in both cases. Seems to me that
the result would be equal.

If not - what magic do the stacking software do to remove random
noise?
Well - truly random noise will be different from one image to the next, so it will be averaged out. The "signal" part stays the same, and so it will be amplified.

Helge Hafting
 
While multiple exposures would allow you to include things happening at different points in time you cannot stack exposures to brighten a scene. Thus its not really an alternative.

I agree that its possible to reduce noise by stacking (averaging out noise and maybe taking advantage of the "sweet spot" of the camera as to exposure time vs noise).

O.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ollivr/
http://www.flickrleech.net/user/ollivr
 
Hardy, I have to say it seems pretty evident that it did not. I am sure this would have been advertised if used.

Can we understand what Foveon has done in the improved sensor? I think there have been many good good suggestions of what has contributed to it here, judging from a scientific background, and beyond that, it is their own business what they have decided to say.

I am thinking where I lived for a nice portion of my life in the US, in a town where there were many fine instrument makers as well as a lot of performing by those of us who were musicians. Some of these were very present in the world of much finer musicians, providing violins, classical guitars, etc. for some of the famous.

Now, there were reasons for their instruments to sound so good, and being friends with one or two of the luthiers, maybe I learned to appreciate a few of them -- and much more, the depth and breadth in overall concerns which made these 'secrets' really work, in instruments which were a pure and intricate pleasure to play.

I think we can appreciate the arrangement, where personality and long effort come to be expressed in what's created.

I feel there is a good deal of that in Foveon. And in their camera partner Sigma too. It doesn't mean mechanical perfection, but an instrument that can be very rewarding to understand in what it offers to the hand and eye -- to use.

Regards,
Clive
Do you remember the stacked pixel patent that Foveon applied for
last year?
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=19848861

Do you think there is a chance that this approach is included in
the new SD14 sensor?
 
Hardy,

That patent reads more like a defensive patent to make sure other companies do not slip through a gap.

The improvement we see really is something only a couple of people on this board know about (and one of them is not meine Wenigkeit), and I am quite sure they will not be elaborating on it. We are welcome to speculate though, if that is what is important.

To the best of my knowledge, it was the result of research into another (related) area.

Since this technology is in its infancy, there will certainly be other breakthroughs like this. As many have noted, however, there is still much to do.
I remember this post from last year and I was actually wondering
from the beginning if this has been included in the new sensor:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1027&message=19848861

I am aware that we don't need to get a very scientific and in-depth
description of what has been improved, just a hint would be enough.
I am very happy about this improvement regarding noise!
--
Laurence

My idea of good company is the fellowship of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation and liberality of ideas.

Jane Austen

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/root
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd10
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com
 
Hi Yvind,

I believe that some of the problems may arise from our quite different and various cultures and our diiffering senses of humor. Americans commonly insult each other in jest with no malice intended and the majority (of Americans) understand this and do not take the insults seriously but in the manner which they are intended.

"Civility" is an issue having many differ facets and what may be deemed perfectly appropriate in one culture can be considered crass and uncivilized in another. Sometimes it's difficult to turn off or "curb" one's innate and/or acquired habits of communication. This makes a forum such as this a place where we learn from each other quite valuable in ways beyond the sharing of technical and product specific information. We also learn to appreciate each other's aesthetic values. It's often not an easy task. In the United States it is very common in civil conversations for people to say things like "you're stupid and here's why," or "they have pills for your disorder." There is no disrespect intended nor taken by those who use or receive such comments in ordinary discourse. But it is nice to be reminded that not all share this manner of speaking and that it is possible to offend another even if unintended so that we need be constantly aware of out actions. Add to this individual differences in styles of communication as well as regional differences within a country or nation and what is amazing is how well it all works out in general.

Best regards,

Lin
I regard most of the regulars here as helpful. Even extremely helpful.
But I do not think that give any right to be uncivil. Do you?
I have a general impression that many of those fruitless 150 post
threads have been prolonged by uncivil behavior of regulars.
And I do not think I am alone, as several people have expressed
frustrations of the tone used by some of these regulars.
Now, people even write disclaimers in their first post, asking not
to be attacked.
I find it sad that regulars here resort to namecalling, suggesting
mental diagnosis and other uncivil behviour. It's even more sad
that it will not help to point it out.
It's also a little bit amusing that two of the most helpful people,
you and Kendall, which also behave very civil, are the only ones of
the regulars that try to convince me that I am wrong, or that it is
OK the way other speak.

Sandy, since you suggest that I go back and read earlier posts, I
can tell you that I have read very much of what has been written
here for the last 2,5 years. My first post here (then as
NorwegianViking) was 2,5 years ago (exactly two days later than
your first post as SandyF)
And, as you might have seen, I am good at keeping track of links.
But I prefer not to to prove examples. Either you see this, or you
don't. I see it, others see it, you don't.
yvind, anyone: for an interesting analysis of contributions and
credibility, click on any poster's name, especially anyone you
consider negative or unhelpful in this thread. you'll see his/her
posts in total. Read through the posts.
Best regards, Sandy
[email protected]
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann
--
Kind regards
Øyvind Strøm
http://www.norwegianviking.smugmug.com
http://www.pbase.com/norwegianviking
 

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