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What did Foveon do???

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Hardy Steiner

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Hi all,

I had a look at the recent SD14 night pics and I am really wondering in which way Foveon improved the sensor to reduce the noise in long exposure shots and high ISO shots. The Foveon site offers hardly any info on this. Does anybody know what exaclty was done to improve this?
Thanks,
Hardy
--
------------------------------
Hardy Steiner
http://www.pbase.com/hardysteiner
http://www.hardy-steiner.net.tf
 
The people that are in the "know" here won't tell you anything, mostly because that "know" is circumstancial and only serves the purpose of hinting that they really know and are in control... a bit like the bouncers of a famous club...

So what did Foveon do about night shots? Not much. Because there's not much they can do or know. My analogy is that they rearranged the furniture in the bedroom (it looks better) but in the process they cracked a few splinters. If you want to do nightime photography you may be better of with some other brand
--
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Sara 12 yrs old
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Gonçalo 8 yrs old
Paulo Ferreira
(equipment in profile)
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Paulo Ferreira said:
The people that are in the "know" here won't tell you anything...
Click to expand...
Paulo Ferreira said:
So what did Foveon do about night shots? Not much. Because there's
not much they can do or know. My analogy is that they rearranged
the furniture in the bedroom (it looks better) but in the process
they cracked a few splinters. If you want to do nightime
photography you may be better of with some other brand
--
Click to expand...
From someone who is not in the know, and hasn't much of a clue.

They reduced the amount of dark current from the sensor. Apparently the camera is not able to take 30 minute exposures, so you indeed might be better off with another camera to do astrophotography (although td showed some nice stuff).

Why so negative Paulo? You were invited to show up pre-PMA and talk to these people. I didn't see you there. Occasionally---they'll say something like "please don't repeat this...", and apparently the people who are within earshot honor that request. Are you familiar with the word "honor"?
Paulo Ferreira said:
'If your mother had a fight with your father don't let her brush
your hair'
Sara 12 yrs old
'Never trust a dog to guard your food'
Gonçalo 8 yrs old
Paulo Ferreira
(equipment in profile)
http://www.pauloferreira.co.uk
http://www.azuzarte.com
http://www.pbase.com/pauloferreira
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/paulo_ferreira
Click to expand...
--
Jim
 
Hi Jim,

Thanks a lot for your informative answer! I was quite astound by the quality of 30sec night shots. With the SD14 these pics look really great. I don't want to take shots longer than 30sec and I will do night shots only sometimes, so being able to take good quality night shots is a nice extra for me.

One more question: Reducing the dark current, besides the positive effect on reducing the noise, does this have any negative effect as well?
Thanks,
Hardy
--
------------------------------
Hardy Steiner
http://www.pbase.com/hardysteiner
http://www.hardy-steiner.net.tf
 
is good for what ails you. Low ISO, high ISO, short exposures, long exposures.

It's a reduction in the basal level of leakage from the chip (wiki it...). Now my guess is that Foveon has done other things as well, but they would be suppositions. For example, we know the imaging processing pipeline is different in SPP 2.2/3.0. But I'm pretty sure that from what I've seen, dark current is substantially lower.

--
Jim
 
SandyF said:
Really?? NR?? How does that improve the resolution, the detail
captured, and length of exposure times? Hmm interesting response,
or are you joking? You need smilies then ;-)
Best regards, Sandy
[email protected]
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann
Click to expand...
Sandy

In reviewing a lot of Geir's recent responses on the forum, a phrase came to mind, "Talking through his hat" which struck me as apt for a lot of his postings. The phrase means talking as if you know a lot, when you don't...

Perhaps he discovered this by examining the chroma channels?

You're right, the smiley faces are missing.

Richard
 
I wondered if anyone would catch my irony, or if I was too subtle. You caught it ;-)
Best regards, S.
 
Hi Jim,

Thanks again ... this was very helpful! If anybody doesn't know what dark current is, here you go:

"dark current." Dark current is produced by a photodiode array in the absence of light. Such unwanted current is caused by volatile organic compounds (VOCs) in air, also known as "photochemical smog." VOCs can adversely impact the ability of CIS photodiode arrays to convert incident photon flux into high resolution digital images.
--
------------------------------
Hardy Steiner
http://www.pbase.com/hardysteiner
http://www.hardy-steiner.net.tf
 
I thought that at first. Then I realized after compairing a shot done in PS and SPP this can't be because the detail in the dark areas with SPP was astounding. And I'm talking 1 pixel width detail. One can't makeup detail if it wasn't there in the first place. All one can do is make conjectures on how they did it. Kudos to Foveon for making a camera such as this. The night shots and long exposure shots are amazing. I can actually take images of the night sky with the SD14 without hot pixels which I had troubles with my Canon1Ds not to mention banding. Canon, which by the way coming from a so called people who have the technology couldn't fix. Even the best NR couldn't remove those. And the big blotchiness of the SD10 couldn't be fixed with the best NR. So one has to think else where. It doesn't matter how Foveon did it, it just a pure joy to shoot long exposures and night shots with the SD14.

regards,
Larry
Ladehaug said:
The main improvement is the new noise reduction algorithm in SPP3.

--
Geir
Click to expand...
--
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This tinged-with-jealousy posting of yours demonstrates a level of ignorance beyond even your standards.

First of all, I never claimed I knew anything beyond knowing that someone knew something. That is what Hardy asked. I certainly have no idea how they accomplished this, but I do know someone who does, and s/he is certainly not going to blab about it on this board.

Further compounding your ignorance is your follow-up and your "analogy". Here is something that I do know as well: Your "analogy" is more completely useless than my one word. You are implying that Foveon cannot do anything or knows about doing anything. The last I checked, the scientists at Foveon did know what they were doing and could do it. That you do not understand anything about this in the least you have managed to demonstrate in much referenced material - it does not gain veracity with increased reference - about pipe-dreamed suppositions Mercutionistically sounding good and saying little.

So who is misleading whom?
Paulo Ferreira said:
The people that are in the "know" here won't tell you anything,
mostly because that "know" is circumstancial and only serves the
purpose of hinting that they really know and are in control... a
bit like the bouncers of a famous club...
So what did Foveon do about night shots? Not much. Because there's
not much they can do or know. My analogy is that they rearranged
the furniture in the bedroom (it looks better) but in the process
they cracked a few splinters. If you want to do nightime
photography you may be better of with some other brand
--
'If your mother had a fight with your father don't let her brush
your hair'
Sara 12 yrs old
'Never trust a dog to guard your food'
Gonçalo 8 yrs old
Paulo Ferreira
(equipment in profile)
http://www.pauloferreira.co.uk
http://www.azuzarte.com
http://www.pbase.com/pauloferreira
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/paulo_ferreira
Click to expand...
--
Laurence

My idea of good company is the fellowship of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation and liberality of ideas.

Jane Austen

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/root
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd10
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com
 
Hello Richard

Wellcome to the club.

You are now an official member of "discredit/belitle/make fun of everyone that talks negatively of foveon/SD-14"

To be serious:

If you want some credits of your claims, please do go into the treads and offer your technical wisdom and show where Geir is wrong.

I can not judge if Geir or Erik are right on the silicon penetration issue, and frankly, I doubt if you can also. I do not know if this is a phrase one can use, but if you say Geir is "talking through his hat", I think you "talk without a hat."

What I CAN judge is that Geir has contributed a great deal to this forum. While his postings may not be regarded as "unconditional praise" of SD-14 or the foveon chip, he have pointed out some very intersting things.

As I intend to re-embark on a professional path with the SD-14, and I read ANY critical remark on the SD-14 with great interest. I know that in the right hands, this camera can produce outstanding things. So does Geir. It's about learning how your gear works. What are the limitations? How can one get around them? Anything I can pick up before I get it is useful. Your attitude is not useful. Next time, just send Sandy an email, if you want to talk bad about someone. Or tell them directly.
richard stone said:
SandyF said:
Really?? NR?? How does that improve the resolution, the detail
captured, and length of exposure times? Hmm interesting response,
or are you joking? You need smilies then ;-)
Best regards, Sandy
[email protected]
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann
Click to expand...
Sandy

In reviewing a lot of Geir's recent responses on the forum, a
phrase came to mind, "Talking through his hat" which struck me as
apt for a lot of his postings. The phrase means talking as if you
know a lot, when you don't...

Perhaps he discovered this by examining the chroma channels?

You're right, the smiley faces are missing.

Richard
Click to expand...
--
Kind regards
Øyvind Strøm
http://www.norwegianviking.smugmug.com
http://www.pbase.com/norwegianviking
 
SandyF said:
Really?? NR?? How does that improve the resolution, the detail
captured, and length of exposure times? Hmm interesting response,
or are you joking? You need smilies then ;-)
Click to expand...
Does it really matter as long as you're getting better images than before? I'm not joking. My observation is based upon what I see by analysis of the images, and with the new SPP3, I see a lot more NR going on in order to hide the coarse chroma noise, particularly at higher ISOs. Of course, the SD14 is a better camera, just like the 400D is a better camera than my old 300D.

--
Geir
 
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