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Nikon really scared of Canon

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Hans Giersberg said:
The 1DIII is a great camera, and Canon is to be commended. But I'll
point out that Nikon still gained worldwide market share over Canon
over the last year. So maybe things aren't as lopsided as you'd
like to believe.
Click to expand...
Fluctuations in the low end are fairly easy to instigate. When Canon introduces the replacement to the 30D, we'll see a lot of sales volume shift back in Canon's direction. And in the lower-end, all they would need to do is produce several versions and iterations of their Rebel series at different price points. Canon has long done that with their Rebel film series (sometimes offering as many as 3 or 4 different versions of the Rebel film bodies, with only minor differences). It doesn't take much of an investment to crank these different versions out. It's primarily just packaging and marketing (in this case, packaging the same sensor and processor into different bodies at different price points). So I wouldn't be surprised if Canon introduces and aggressively markets multiple Rebel digital models, and it'll be just like the film days, where Rebels ruled the sales roost.

But one thing that these kinds of numbers don't measure is how well different brands are able to hold onto existing usership. And in that respect, Nikon is doing a lot worse than Canon is. Canon gets more Nikon defectors than Nikon gets Canon defectors. It's not uncommon to read about 10, 20 year users of Nikon equipment switching to Canon. And these are high-end users who spend a lot of money on equipment. For example, read the "despatches" of long-time Nikon landscape photographer David Noton.

http://www.davidnoton.com/despatches.php

In his August 2005 despatch, he writes, "I’ve gone for the Canon EOS 1Ds mkII (whatever marketing exec dreamt up that name?). With its 16.7 megapixel full-frame sensor it’s by general consensus established itself as the benchmark against which all other pro digital SLRs are measured, so I’m confident I’ve plumped for the best, for now. It's meant, however, junking my entire Nikon system, which has been a bitter pill to swallow."

His current gear is:
2 Canon EOS-1Ds mkII bodies
Canon 17-40mm f4 EF lens
Canon 24-70mm f2.8 EF lens
Canon 70-200mm f2.8 EF IS lens
Canon 24mm f3.5 tilt & shift lens
Canon 15mm f2.8 fisheye lens
Canon 100-400mm f4.5-5.6 EF lens
Canon 580 flash

And one battered Nikon F5 he keeps "as a momento" on his mantelpiece.

That's a whole lot of money that Nikon missed out on, but Canon got. And it's a bit more money than most entry-level buyers will spend.

These days, it seems like the 5D is the big switcher bate, with lots of Nikon users picking up a 5D for the advantages that FF offers, not to mention it's very attractive price for its quality of high res output. And I strongly suspect that the new 1D MKIII will draw even more switchers into the Canon fold. 1D MKIII unit volume may not add up to much when compared to the cheap lower-level bodies, but they contribute a significant dollar volume.
 
Bernard Languillier said:
Not sure to follow you here. All I am saying is that Canon, thanks
to their FF body, has a significant lead compared to Nikon for some
applications.
Click to expand...
So the pro sports/action/pj market is practically owned by Canon now, thanks to their FF bodies? I don't think so. Canon started dominating that market with the 1D back in 2001, then the 1D MKII in 2004, and now the 1D MKIII in 2007. And the popularity has spilled over into other areas of pro photography. Canon's 1.3x bodies are the workhorse of the industry, allowing Canon to become the top pro brand. And this is all before you even consider the impact of Canon's FF bodies. So I don't see the release of a Nikon FF body changing much of this. Furthermore, by the time Nikon does introduce a FF body (which I think is still quite a long way down the road), will it achieve quality and pricing parity with Canon's offerings at that time? How cheap will a 5D MKII be by then? Under $2K? If they can't compete with Canon's pricing and performance levels, they could just end up with a very expensive, unprofitable, lame duck product.
 
T3 said:
Bernard Languillier wrote:

Stitching is fine and dandy, but it's not exactly the answer to
Canon's FF offerings. Besides, any of Canon's FF bodies can work
well and dandy as "stitching" cameras, too.
Click to expand...
As a last answer, they can, but:
  • DoF is often even more an issue with stitching images than it is with single captures, I have suffered enough of this with ZD to know what I am talking about,
  • image uniformity (both sharpness and brightness) is absolutely key for perfect stitches, and DX has the edge here,
  • A light package is important since spherical heads are only that rigid, a D2x with a DX lens is significantly lighter than the Canon equivalent.
Feel free to disagree, but the comments above are the results of hundreds of hours in the field.

Cheers,
Bernard
 
That is why they did not release an upgrade and there are so many rebates on Canon lenses and bodies including the 5D. Many more would consider a 5D except for the size and the price.
On top of that only a few of the best Canon lenses are suitable for a 5D.
Such a real bargain camera system.

Somehow people are able to take excellent photos without a 5D. The last time I took photos of a family wedding using a lowly XT several of my shots were considered better than the hired photographer using a 5D.
I won't try explain how that is possible. Must have been the composition.
--
Torch
 
The irony of your statement is that you care so much you called a guy a moron in this thread. So who cares? You do.

As for Canon and Nikon, pretty funny how brand loyalty becomes sour grapes quick when a company doesn't fulfill the needs of many users. That can be said for either Canon and Nikon.
justahack said:
--
Cheers.

...Please don't rub up against my glass...
Click to expand...
 
Because it will result in lower prices despite what some say will not happen. Canon will make their new offerings this year and the leapfrogging will be back to the same cycle.
Hans Giersberg said:
The 1DIII is a great camera, and Canon is to be commended. But I'll
point out that Nikon still gained worldwide market share over Canon
over the last year. So maybe things aren't as lopsided as you'd
like to believe.

--
I Reject Your Reality And Substitute My Own

Web Site - http://www.hgiersberg.com/
Click to expand...
 
Bernard Languillier said:
T3 said:
Bernard Languillier wrote:

Stitching is fine and dandy, but it's not exactly the answer to
Canon's FF offerings. Besides, any of Canon's FF bodies can work
well and dandy as "stitching" cameras, too.
Click to expand...
As a last answer, they can, but:
  • DoF is often even more an issue with stitching images than it is
with single captures, I have suffered enough of this with ZD to
know what I am talking about,
  • image uniformity (both sharpness and brightness) is absolutely
key for perfect stitches, and DX has the edge here,
  • A light package is important since spherical heads are only that
rigid, a D2x with a DX lens is significantly lighter than the Canon
equivalent.

Feel free to disagree, but the comments above are the results of
hundreds of hours in the field.
Click to expand...
What a brilliant idea! To help Nikon's lagging pro sales, Nikon should start marketing the D2X as a stitching camera! This is surely going to put Nikon back on top!
 
Torch said:
That is why they did not release an upgrade and there are so many
rebates on Canon lenses and bodies including the 5D. Many more
would consider a 5D except for the size and the price.
On top of that only a few of the best Canon lenses are suitable for
a 5D.
Click to expand...
Do you own a 5D? Have you shot with a wide variety of lenses or did you make up that from things you read on the net. I am here to tell you as a D200 and 5D owner that the 5D does just great with more than "just a few lenses". Is your statement is obviously by someone who doesn't really know? You can get great results if you know what you are doing with a 5D and the measly $75 50mm 1.8 lens. Yes, $75. I can get great results from my L and Non L because why? I know what I am doing. As far as sales goes. Do you have any figures? Do you realize that the last round of rebates encouraged people to buy additional lenses and accessories? That makes a nice chunk of change over aps-c profit margins.
Torch said:
Such a real bargain camera system.
Click to expand...
The 5D is a bargain compared to Nikon, Pentax, Sony digital 35mm FF options. They have a combined 0.
Torch said:
Somehow people are able to take excellent photos without a 5D.
Click to expand...
Yes but just because they can doesn;t mean I can;t have choices for what I do with my photography? I like having aps-c aps-h and FF35mm in my bag. Please tell me how well my 24mm TS-e would do on my aps-c camera in getting the whole 24mm view?

The
Torch said:
last time I took photos of a family wedding using a lowly XT
several of my shots were considered better than the hired
photographer using a 5D.
Click to expand...
Good for you, pat yourself on the back. That is due to your skill and the others lack of skill. You judge all 5D users on one guy that you think you are superior to? You make your FF assumptions of 1? Plenty of people with FF that know what they are doing.
Torch said:
I won't try explain how that is possible. Must have been the
composition.
--
Torch
Click to expand...
Maybe you just think you are better and you have a chip on your shoulder because you have prejudice against FF as a coping mechanism because you don't want to justify buying it.

Use what you want but posting generalizations based on incorrect or small pool of data helps no one.

I use Nikon, canon, 3 formats and it is great having choices. Your logic dictates that no one should have choices and we should all be saddled with aps-c.
 
One wrong move, your can turn the forturne around in no time.

Look at Nintendo's Wii now taking over PS3 by storm. PS3 could suffer the same fate as the Nintendo GameCube.

Canon is scared of Nikon and same way as Nikon is scared of Canon.
 
Bernard Languillier said:
As a last answer, they can, but:
  • DoF is often even more an issue with stitching images than it is
with single captures, I have suffered enough of this with ZD to
know what I am talking about,'
Click to expand...
So you're telling me that a good wide angle lens stopped down doesn't give you enough depth of field on a FF body? Oh, please.
Bernard Languillier said:
  • image uniformity (both sharpness and brightness) is absolutely
key for perfect stitches, and DX has the edge here,
Click to expand...
So you're telling me that a good wide angle lens stopped down to optimum shooting apertures can't yield adequate sharpness and brightness uniformity on a FF body? Oh, please.
Bernard Languillier said:
  • A light package is important since spherical heads are only that
rigid, a D2x with a DX lens is significantly lighter than the Canon
equivalent.
Click to expand...
So you're telling me that a 1150 gram D2X (with battery) is significantly lighter than a 895 gram 5D (with battery)? Even when you factor in the weight of lenses, it doesn't add up. A Nikon 12-24 DX weighs 465 grams. A Canon 16-35/2.8 weighs 600 grams. That makes the D2X combo 1615 grams, while the 5D combo is 1490 grams. The D2X combo is not "significantly lighter" than the 5D. The 5D combo is the lighter one. (Also, that's with an f/2.8 lens on the 5D versus an f/4 lens on the D2X.) Both deliver 13mp.

Furthermore, you're telling me that there aren't any ballheads that can handle heavy loads with sufficient rigidity? Oh, please. Believe it or not, in the film days Nikon photographers used to shoot with cameras called the Nikon F5 (1200 grams) and Nikon F4 (1400 grams), with full frame lenses, on ballheads. I think a lot of ballhead manufacturers would laugh at you for implying that you need the "light package" of a D2X with DX lenses because ballheads aren't rigid enough to hold anything heavy.
 
you've made so many this and that in the past and all haven't materialized. You're full of it. A H
 
Torch said:
That is why they did not release an upgrade and there are so many
rebates on Canon lenses and bodies including the 5D. Many more
would consider a 5D except for the size and the price.
Click to expand...
The 5D isn't exactly a camera for the budget-minded hobbiest who wants something small and cheap.

As for rebates, Canon has pretty much always had rebates. It has nothing to do with who successful or unsuccessful their sales are.
Torch said:
On top of that only a few of the best Canon lenses are suitable for
a 5D.
Click to expand...
I know this is going to be hard for you to believe, but back in the film days, we all used 35mm format, and we all used 35mm full frame lenses, and most of our lenses were quite "suitable" for the format. The 5D is also a 35mm body. It just happens to use a digital sensor rather than film.
Torch said:
Such a real bargain camera system.
Click to expand...
If you can find a cheaper FF DSLR, buy it. If you can find a cheaper 13mp DSLR, buy it. The fact is, the 5D is the least expensive 13mp DSLR ever produced, and it's the least expensive FF DSLR ever produced.
Torch said:
Somehow people are able to take excellent photos without a 5D. The
last time I took photos of a family wedding using a lowly XT
several of my shots were considered better than the hired
photographer using a 5D.
Click to expand...
Did anyone say you couldn't take excellent pictures without a 5D? No one is saying that.
 
Bernard Languillier said:
By a significant margin in Japan and the EU, they are still #2 in
the US. The high ISO performance of their new bodies, that used to
be a limitation, is now in the same league as Canon's offerings.
Click to expand...
I agree. nikon has gone after the low end since Canon owns the pro end market. nikon has now 3 entry level dSLRs: d80, d40, d40x when Canon has just the XTi.
 
Torch said:
That is why they did not release an upgrade and there are so many
rebates on Canon lenses and bodies including the 5D. Many more
would consider a 5D except for the size and the price.
On top of that only a few of the best Canon lenses are suitable for
a 5D.
Click to expand...
Why should Canon have released a 5D2 this spring? It is a great camera that still have no competition and no competition upcoming. It will be replaced spring 2008 at the earliest since Canon has the 1Ds3 and 40D to roll out this fall and they wouldn't do 3 SLRs at one time. The 5D is still pulling customers from nikon.
 
FretNoMore said:
Bernard Languillier said:
...
  • DoF is often even more an issue with stitching images than it is
with single captures, I have suffered enough of this with ZD to
know what I am talking about,
...
Click to expand...
Why would DoF be an issue, you get the same DoF whether you're
stitching or not, right?
Click to expand...
You do, but you typically cover a lot of angle when shooting panoramas, and this often results in more fore/aft depth than when shooting a single image.

This often results in the need to have more DoF with panos.

cheers,
Bernard
 
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