believe it or not, Nikon had an easier time working with CCD than Canon's CMOS because CCD's are inheriently less noisy than CMOS - and it still took them 3 years to catch up to canon, and even then, Nikon's NR is really image smudging versus actual reduction via hardware optimization before image processing.
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Nikon really scared of Canon
- Thread starter mmmmmmmm
- Start date
Yeah, Nikon will eventually release new stuff. Just in time for them to fall behind Canon's second-generation 5D, third generation 1D, and third-generation 1Ds bodies? Maybe they'll eventually come out with a D3H to compete with the outgoing 1D MKII, but of course, you won't want to buy it until they replace it with the D3H"s". And while they've managed to successfully tame the noise of their LBCAST sensor at 4mp, it'll take that much more taming and tweaking to get it to perform at twice that many megapixels (or more). LBCAST is quite a different technology from what they've been using in their recent lower-level models (like the D80 and D40), so just because those lower models are handling noise well doesn't necessarily translate to how an LBCAST D3H would perform. As for their higher-rez bodies, Nikon is still stuck with packing lots of pixels onto an APS sensor, which obviously presents limits to sensor performance (noise and diffraction). And they are still a long way from going FF because, according to Jeremy Gilbert, Nikon's group marketing manager, Nikon hasn't even decide if they are ever going to go FF at all:
http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/Nikon_clarifies_full_frame_policy_news_115110.html
Bernard Languillier
Senior Member
You might be right... or not. The point I was trying to make is that now is a very bad timing for a long time Nikon user to switch to Canon. Why not wait until Nikon actually releases that next generation and see what it is worth?
Your bet is as good as mine regarding the sensor size of the next high end Nikon. I would personnally prefer it to remain APS, but the overall market expectation is such that I believe that it will be FF (or close to).
That quote is totally meaningless, as if someone in Nikon UK had a clue about what is coming next. Nikon is known to be a very centralized company and its foreign subsidiaries are only inform very late about new products introductions, yet alone global strategies.
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard Languillier
Senior Member
OK, what I meant is that over the past few months Nikon is:
Bernard
- #1 global sales,
- #1 overall value offering in the low end (better overall camera for less money),
- #2 technology in the pro segment.
Bernard
links please.
the only data I've seen was North american which didn't agree with you.
I watch this alot and have for a few years. There's alot of reasons outside of pure fanboyism that you see in the other forums, that their should be some wondering what nikon is actually doing. I've had this convo alot with other pros that I know, and it really hasn't changed in the 2 years we've been talking about it. and there's the point - if there's been no change in TWO years. there is a problem.
it's okay to say, well, in 2006, er, 7, maybe 8 . .the D3 will be better than the 1Ds, er 1D Mark II er Mark III dammit - but the facts of the matter is - Nikon just doesn't have the bucks to compete with what Canon can toss at them.
Now put away fanboyism for a second .. and think...
Just from the size aspect and what Canon can leverage. they can leverage technology and engineers from all their divisions if need be.
their profit is almost the same amount as the entire operating revenue of Nikon. Yes Nikon rolled in a tidy profit last year. However, it pales in comparison to the size and revenue and profit that Canon makes across all it's divisions, and what canon makes in it's digital camera division.
Also people state the "most profitable" segment of digital cameras as the low end - no it is not - that's the digicam segment, and canon rules that segment.
There are signs that people should really look at - for instance, the VERY quiet discountining of the D2Hs with no product replacement or upgrade, discountinuing of prime lenses under 50mm - again with no replacements.
Nikon does not have one prime lens faster than F2.8 under 50mm. This from a company that was known for "great glass".
Yes they made a great digicam lens, then 18-200 VR, which basically turns a DLSR into a digicam, but these cameras I hope, were meant for more than that.
when's the last time that nikon came out with a pro lens? the 105 Micro (debatable PRO lens but anyways..) which was Feb 2006. Outside of that .. the last pro lenses where when? Feb 2004?
During that time, Canon's released the 24-105 IS L, 16-35 II, 50 1.2, 85 1.2 II, 70-200 2.8 IS L, 70-200 F4 IS L
it's okay to say, well, in 2006, er, 7, maybe 8 . .the D3 will be better than the 1Ds, er 1D Mark II er Mark III dammit - but the facts of the matter is - Nikon just doesn't have the bucks to compete with what Canon can toss at them.
Now put away fanboyism for a second .. and think...
Just from the size aspect and what Canon can leverage. they can leverage technology and engineers from all their divisions if need be.
their profit is almost the same amount as the entire operating revenue of Nikon. Yes Nikon rolled in a tidy profit last year. However, it pales in comparison to the size and revenue and profit that Canon makes across all it's divisions, and what canon makes in it's digital camera division.
Also people state the "most profitable" segment of digital cameras as the low end - no it is not - that's the digicam segment, and canon rules that segment.
There are signs that people should really look at - for instance, the VERY quiet discountining of the D2Hs with no product replacement or upgrade, discountinuing of prime lenses under 50mm - again with no replacements.
Nikon does not have one prime lens faster than F2.8 under 50mm. This from a company that was known for "great glass".
Yes they made a great digicam lens, then 18-200 VR, which basically turns a DLSR into a digicam, but these cameras I hope, were meant for more than that.
when's the last time that nikon came out with a pro lens? the 105 Micro (debatable PRO lens but anyways..) which was Feb 2006. Outside of that .. the last pro lenses where when? Feb 2004?
During that time, Canon's released the 24-105 IS L, 16-35 II, 50 1.2, 85 1.2 II, 70-200 2.8 IS L, 70-200 F4 IS L
also sales statistics are a sure sign of fanboyism btw, as they will go up and down worldwide based upon release dates.
D40 / x should sell well and same with D80 simply because it's newer and in alot of segments of the world that means alot.
Now if you have stats on "user base" and "installed base" and total customers .. that actually might mean something.
D40 / x should sell well and same with D80 simply because it's newer and in alot of segments of the world that means alot.
Now if you have stats on "user base" and "installed base" and total customers .. that actually might mean something.
thw
Veteran Member
Ha, ha, ha....
The high ISO performance is still 1 stop worse than Canon. This is most CLEARLY demonstrated in RAW shooting:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1031&message=21580673
-------------------------------------------
See the colors of my world in:
thw.smugmug.com
Bernard Languillier
Senior Member
you are wrong there...
value ? according to you... better camera ? again subjective
and a very DISTANT second at that
--
Johnny
Bernard Languillier
Senior Member
Yep, I agree with you, but that is a completely different discussion.
The OP's point was about Nikon's decline. You don't measure a decline by looking at installed base, you look at recent sales figures.
It is true that the recent performance of Nikon is the result of the release of several bodies, but the previous performance of Canon was the result of them releasing several bodies. Back then, Canon was said to be ahead because of the ability to release quickly new models.
Cheers,
Bernard
hate to tell you - you're wrong.And a 28 mm f1.4...
they've quietly dropped alot of primes especially the fast ones. so quietly in fact, that not even you knew that. You've proved my point. nikon droped alot of things really quietly.
this is the current nikkor prime WA lineup...
14mm f/2.8D ED AF Nikkor
16mm f/2.8D AF Fisheye-Nikkor
18mm f/2.8D AF Nikkor
20mm f/2.8D AF Nikkor
24mm f/2.8D AF Nikkor
28mm f/2.8D AF Nikkor
35mm f/2D AF Nikkor
Bernard Languillier
Senior Member
If I were into portrait or PJ, I'd shoot Canon, no doubt. For my landscape/stitching applications, the Nikon D2x is IMHO the best offering on the market right now. That's why I shoot Nikon. Besides, I also use a Mamiya ZD and an Ebony 4x5 LF camera. The best tool for each application within my ability to invest.
I am sorry, but this doesn't make sense at all. Nikon is a very profitable company with an increasing market share. They can get whatever amount of money is needed - internally or from banks - to develop the technologies that they need to adopt in whatever product they think can sell.
Well, I have been working in Japan for 10 years with various companies, and that's just not the way it works sir. Movement between divisions of large groups like Canon occur mostly in upper mgt level, mostly not at engineering level.
Besides, DSLR high end sensors are a very specific product. They might somehow benefit from some fundamental research done elsewhere in Canon, but I am yet to hear exactly how that happens.
If anything, Sony with their huge volumes of sensor, is able to get much more significant economies of scale with the resulting ability to invest in fundemental research.
Yes, but that is irrelevant.
I am with you on this, Nikon need to release quickly convincing offerings in the high end, but this is scheduled for this year.
Unfair comment. The 105 mm is an amazing lens with best in class performance and features.
These lenses are nice, but mostly updates/corrections of existing offerings.
Cheers,
Bernard
I getcha. yeah I don't see nikon declining, but I don't see them as optimistically as some do. This "owning" and etc simply doesn't wash in the large scope of things.It is true that the recent performance of Nikon is the result of
the release of several bodies, but the previous performance of
Canon was the result of them releasing several bodies. Back then,
Canon was said to be ahead because of the ability to release
quickly new models.
they are in a jam. let's face facts. in the pre digital world, it was electro-mechanical, mechanical and some electronic / computer systems in the camera. Glass was king, as you just had to load the film you wanted and away you went.
Now the world has changed..
it's all software / hardware, and very little mechanical. the camera is the film and the photgrapher is the developer.
and Nikon simply has a huge disadvantage to that when compared to Canon. It doesn't mean that Nikon isn't going to come out with great cameras, it simply means their target of innovation might be more focused than Canon's. In other words - will they simply let the pro line die away knowing that it will cost them 80% of their R&D and only deliver 1% of their revenue? let's face it.. it's the consumer and prosumer bodies making the money for nikon. So I'm thinking that you may see nikon become "smarter" and more targetted with it's lenses and bodies and hit more of the consumer market than the pro / upper -pro market. the signs are already there, that is what they are doing.
Bernard Languillier
Senior Member
Really? I cannot find the links back, but - from the top of my head - the figures for units sold I saw for early 07 were:
- Japan: Canon 38%, Nikon 44%
- EU: Canon 37%, Nikon 39%
- US: Canon 39%, Nikon 34%
Do you have different figures?
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard Languillier
Senior Member
My guess is that they will indeed focus on a quick turn over rate for the lower end, and keep releasing one new high end body every 2.5/3 years. That body is likely to be close to Canon's best offering but they might indeed not take enough risk to be able to out-do it significantly.
The current period is interesting only because of the whole APS/FF paradigm shift. As soon as Nikon will have released a FF body the seemingly large lead of Canon will be mostly gone. That's the only signficant gap today, for the rest they are very close to one another.
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard Languillier
Senior Member
hate to tell you - you're right.hate to tell you - you're wrong.And a 28 mm f1.4...
I was not aware they had stopped production of that lens, thanks for pointing that out.
Cheers,
Bernard
Do you think that a company that makes 9B has the potential to borrow more than a company that makes 1B? or a company that has 1B in profit as more ability to R&D / borrow than a company that makes 300M in profit?
Actually canon has specifically mentioned in varous whitepapers that they have leveraged innovation from other canon divisions.
Senors are only one part of the equation. For instance, sensor isn't what is keeping the D2Xs from doing 1.5 crop @ 8 fps, it's image processing throughput. nothing at all to do with sensor.
Rumour. Nikon hasn't said anything about releasing any pro camera this year, or any pro lenses this year.
and so's the Canon 100mm macro and the 65 EF-S macro, but I didnt' include those lenses from Canon's side. I specifically only included "Gold" stripped lenses and specifically included "red stripped" lenses from Canon.
I gave nikon the benefit of the doubt by including a prosumer lens as a pro lens.
Not really. 25-105 wasn't. 50 1.2 wasn't. (btw I only went back to 2005 with canon lenses, and went back to 2004 with nikon)
Also, Nikon on it's 2004 releases was simply VR'ing lenses, so including it for both is fair and that 105 micro nikkor was technically an upgrade with VR and AF-S.
2007 aint over
From Rochester Business Journal for 2006
"The digital SLR growth helped Canon Inc. keep its No. 1 position in 2006 with 18.7 percent share, up from 17.4 share a year ago, the report states. Sony Corp., which became the third largest supplier of DSLRs, remained in second place in digital cameras, with its share rising from 15.2 percent in 2005 to 15.8 percent in 2006.
Kodak’s share dropped from 14.2 percent in 2005 to 10 percent in 2006. It remained ahead of No. 4 Olympus Corp., which fell to 8.6 percent from 9.8 percent.
Kodak CEO Antonio Perez in January 2006 announced Kodak would forgo some digital camera sales that were not profitable. That move enabled Kodak to improve its digital bottom line but hurt total sales and share.
The big winner in 2006 was Samsung, IDC said, which displaced Nikon Inc. and became the fifth-largest seller of digital cameras in the world. The firm doubled its share from 4 percent in 2005 to 8 percent in 2006. Nikon ranked sixth with 7.6 share, down from 7.9. " (end quote)
Dont get me wrong, I want Nikon around to push Canon so that dont get lazy..but like I said there is only one #1...no such thing as #1 in the low end to me.
--
Johnny
From Rochester Business Journal for 2006
"The digital SLR growth helped Canon Inc. keep its No. 1 position in 2006 with 18.7 percent share, up from 17.4 share a year ago, the report states. Sony Corp., which became the third largest supplier of DSLRs, remained in second place in digital cameras, with its share rising from 15.2 percent in 2005 to 15.8 percent in 2006.
Kodak’s share dropped from 14.2 percent in 2005 to 10 percent in 2006. It remained ahead of No. 4 Olympus Corp., which fell to 8.6 percent from 9.8 percent.
Kodak CEO Antonio Perez in January 2006 announced Kodak would forgo some digital camera sales that were not profitable. That move enabled Kodak to improve its digital bottom line but hurt total sales and share.
The big winner in 2006 was Samsung, IDC said, which displaced Nikon Inc. and became the fifth-largest seller of digital cameras in the world. The firm doubled its share from 4 percent in 2005 to 8 percent in 2006. Nikon ranked sixth with 7.6 share, down from 7.9. " (end quote)
Dont get me wrong, I want Nikon around to push Canon so that dont get lazy..but like I said there is only one #1...no such thing as #1 in the low end to me.
--
Johnny
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