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Karlg said:
but most of the people that have express disappointment in what
they have read have not “whined like a baby.”
Click to expand...
Two points:

One, "whined like a baby" is your phrase. My word was simply "whining," used in the context of repeadedly complaining about things which can't be changed.

Two, I didn't categorize "most of the people" who have expressed disappointment. But there are some who would fit into that category.
Karl Guttag said:
And then we have the people that believe all the marketing hype of
Foveon. The real issue for Canon for the next year will be the
Nikon D100 and maybe some other cameras based on the new Sony 1.5X
sensor.
Click to expand...
I would hope that if we mere rabble rousers on this forum can see that, then the experts at Canon even more aware of it than we are. They don't need us repeatedly pointing out the obvious to them.
Karl Guttag said:
I don’t see where I insulted people that are satisfied with their
purchase.
Click to expand...
Well, I can think of at least three personal insults directed at me in your last post.
Karl Guttag said:
Certainly not to the extent that you insulted people
that are less than happy with the proposed D60 announcement.
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Not personal insults to anyone, and certainly not for posting an opinion. Characterizing those who repeadedly dismiss the autofocus of the D60 even before it hits the store shelves as whining is not an insult.. Just a fair observation.
Karl Guttag said:
But any regular of this forum will
tell you that the weakest point of the D30 is the AF.
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.. just as any regular will also tell you that the autofocus isn't nearly as bad as what its loudest critics make it out to be. Agreed?
Karl Guttag said:
Karl Guttag said:
Did anyone buy a D30 with the assurance from Canon that they would
give us an inexpensive upgrade in just a year and a half that would
have an autofocus system worthy of their best film cameras?
Click to expand...
There you go putting words in the mouths and totally
misrepresenting what I said. I SPECIFICALLY said I did NOT expect
the AF of their BEST film cameras.
Click to expand...
I was careful NOT to say that was your statement, so there was no putting words in anyone's mouth. However, that is an attitude that has been expressed on this forum.... to the tune of 'Canon is dirt for keeping the D60 another digital Rebel.. I'm going to Nikon first chance I get.' THAT is the type of whining I'm talking about, NOT the reasonable posts with the flavor of 'Good job, Canon, but gee, couldn't you have made the autofocus even better than what it was??'
Karl Guttag said:
I like to think it was a
reasonable expectation that they would seriously address the
weakest point of the D30.
Click to expand...
And they certainly DID do that. However, they didn't bring it up to the level of their professional level digital slr. Think about that and you will see that to be marketing folly for them.
Karl Guttag said:
I happen to be an IC design engineer, but the fact that they can
afford to put much better AF sensor into much cheaper film cameras
should be proof enough.
Click to expand...
That is proof, but only if we're talking of apples to apples comparison. As you know, digital cameras are much different animals than film cameras. Not only is the sensor size different, there are different electronic systems to interface with, different physical size limitations, etc. Also, and very important, the market is much different. It is probably much more cost effective to mass produce a "better" autofocus system in a mass-produced inexpensive 35mm slr, especially when many components are shared across multiple models; compared to designing one for a specific dslr that is aimed at a very narrow market. So, to say that "They could have done it cheap" is a bit of pie in the sky thinking and somewhat naive.

I'm sure that GM can put a HUD display with integral GPS on all their subcompact cars pretty cheaply, too. For some reason, though, I think it would cost me a lot to get it!! LOL
Karl Guttag said:
market. Their customers that have bought into their lens system
have a right to call foul. From what I see, the complaints in
these forums find their way back to Canon and perhaps as
importantly to Reviewers of cameras and some store personnel.
Click to expand...
There is no "foul" because Canon already has a camera that meets the needs of customers who need bulletproof low light predictive autofocus. If those customers aren't willing to pay the price for it, that's a different story.

Now, if Nikon's new entry is truly a "does everything equally well" better than the D60, then the market has changed... and you can trust that Canon will adjust accordingly.

--Steve http://home.att.net/~bishopweb/
 
some of us would like the option of a Ford Taurus. ;)
Mike Johnston said:
Complaining that the D30/60 doesn't have everything is like me
complaining that my Ford Escort ZX-2 doesn't have the acceleration
of a Corvette. If I want a Corvette, I should buy a Corvette,
shouldn't I? And if I want to gripe that a ZX-2 is all I can
afford, then shouldn't I accept the fact that Corvette-like
performance costs something to implement and can't be incorporated
into a $15,000 econocar? It doesn't make sense to me that people
complain that a lower-level camera isn't the right tool for
specialized jobs just because they can't afford, or don't want to
pay for, the tool that IS provided for those specialized jobs.
Click to expand...
--The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.netPhotography -- just another word for compromise
 
Mike Johnston said:
Hilarious post, Mike A., and wise. I like this thread because it's
a bit of an antidote to the sometimes raging equipment fetishism
more often to be found around here.
Click to expand...
There was post here not long ago in which one participant took another to task (I don't think this was done tongue-in-cheek) for asking Howcum We Can't Talk More About Photography, Huh? because "this is an equipment forum!" or the like -- the idea being, if the fellow wanted to talk about photography itself, he should flounce off to some other forum. Bizarre.
Mike Johnston said:
Cameras are what we make of them, not what they make of us.
Click to expand...
Careful. In some circles of confusion, that's heresy, you know. :-)
 
Mike Johnston said:
Complaining that the D30/60 doesn't have everything is like me
complaining that my Ford Escort ZX-2 doesn't have the acceleration
of a Corvette. If I want a Corvette, I should buy a Corvette,
shouldn't I?
Click to expand...
Well, sure -- just as long as you don't mind the lousy auto-focus.
 
DavidP said:
some of us would like the option of a Ford Taurus. ;)
Click to expand...
Justy. I think I want a Subaru Justy of a camera. Something small and relatively harmless, that people with really cool sexy smoked-glass-and-chrome cameras can laugh at. Something that looks like a squashed grape and that gets wonderful mileage.
 
More like a Thunderbird SC or at least a Taurus HO

DJM
DavidP said:
Mike Johnston said:
Complaining that the D30/60 doesn't have everything is like me
complaining that my Ford Escort ZX-2 doesn't have the acceleration
of a Corvette. If I want a Corvette, I should buy a Corvette,
shouldn't I? And if I want to gripe that a ZX-2 is all I can
afford, then shouldn't I accept the fact that Corvette-like
performance costs something to implement and can't be incorporated
into a $15,000 econocar? It doesn't make sense to me that people
complain that a lower-level camera isn't the right tool for
specialized jobs just because they can't afford, or don't want to
pay for, the tool that IS provided for those specialized jobs.
Click to expand...
--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise
Click to expand...
 
Stephen Cook said:
On the other end, the posts which say a "pro" shouldn't need better
autofocus because she should be able to do it herself make little
sense.
Click to expand...
I don't remember anyone suggesting that a pro shouldn't need better autofucus. Any pro will tell you she/he needs all the help he/she can get. I certainly do. In the occasional absense of such help, a pro needs to be prepared to do what is necessary to fulfil the assignment and satisfy her/his client, including focusing a camera if necessary.
Stephen Cook said:
This carries with it an implication that a pro should be
willing to deliberately cripple herself with her equipment because
her skill should make up for it and she can still get the shot.
Click to expand...
No, it doesn't. Any one, pro or not, who deliberately cripples himself/herself with her/his equipment is not being skillful. He/she is being stupid. The point was that, if a piece of equipment is found to be "crippling", whining about its inadequacies is unlikely to improve it.

This carries with it only the implication that a pro, (or anyone else) should be willing to replace unusable equipment with something that will get the job done. Endlessly berating a camera and the company that made it does nothing to solve her/his problem. This is not rocket science.
--EB
 
MikeA said:
There was post here not long ago in which one participant took
another to task (I don't think this was done tongue-in-cheek) for
asking Howcum We Can't Talk More About Photography, Huh? because
"this is an equipment forum!" or the like -- the idea being, if the
fellow wanted to talk about photography itself, he should flounce
off to some other forum. Bizarre.
Click to expand...
How dare someone talk about photography in a forum devoted to camera equipment? That would be like talking about recipies in a forum devoted to cookware? In a civilized world, how can these two things possibly go together? How? Tell me!

Andy
 
E. Blues said:
No, it doesn't. Any one, pro or not, who deliberately cripples
himself/herself with her/his equipment is not being skillful.
He/she is being stupid. The point was that, if a piece of
equipment is found to be "crippling", whining about its
inadequacies is unlikely to improve it.
Click to expand...
That seems to go against the grain of what goes on in here, doesn't it? 'If I complain about something, Canon will listen to ME and change things reguardless of if it's reasonable or feasible to be done.

Andy
 
Andy Somnifac said:
How dare someone talk about photography in a forum devoted to
camera equipment? That would be like talking about recipies in a
forum devoted to cookware? In a civilized world, how can these two
things possibly go together? How? Tell me!
Click to expand...
No.

Next question, please. :-)
 
davidp once again right on!
DavidP said:
Mike Johnston said:
Complaining that the D30/60 doesn't have everything is like me
complaining that my Ford Escort ZX-2 doesn't have the acceleration
of a Corvette. If I want a Corvette, I should buy a Corvette,
shouldn't I? And if I want to gripe that a ZX-2 is all I can
afford, then shouldn't I accept the fact that Corvette-like
performance costs something to implement and can't be incorporated
into a $15,000 econocar? It doesn't make sense to me that people
complain that a lower-level camera isn't the right tool for
specialized jobs just because they can't afford, or don't want to
pay for, the tool that IS provided for those specialized jobs.
Click to expand...
--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise
Click to expand...
 
Sorry - This is the first time I've noticed your two day old post, Roger.

All I can say is: AMEN!

TBoyd
Roger LePage said:
I am growing very tired of reading negative comments about Canon
and the D30/D60. The D60 isn’t on the shelves yet and everyone is
declaring it a piece of junk. I purchased a D30 this spring, it
has taken over most of the photography I had used a Hasselblad for.
I still use the Hasselblad for magazine covers. I’ve used the D30
for catalog, fashion, portraits and even food photography that I
had previously shot with 4x5. Every time I down load images, the
camera impresses me, I guess that’s what matters. The company I
work for purchased a Canon D2000 ($12,000) few years ago, the D30
images kicks it’s but. If the D60 has all the qualities of D30 and
more rez, GREAT. Cameras are just a piece of equipment, not
perfect, doesn’t matter what brand, get comfortable with it and
make the most of what it has.
Click to expand...
 
David James Miller said:
DJM
DavidP said:
some of us would like the option of a Ford Taurus. ;)
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Yeah, but I think the D30 is a Taurus...and a D60 is the SHO. The Escort is a G2 and God knows what the Justy is in Canon's line, but it's got to have some tiny little 2-mp job that would be analogous.

I'm not really arguing with you folks who are disappointed that the D60's AF isn't better than the D30's. I know what it's like to be disappointed by a much-anticipated new camera when it finally gets here and just doesn't have what you want it to. But on this thread we've had people say you can't photograph action with the D30, and somebody produces a picture of a jet plane doing a flyby, and then people say yeah, but you can't photograph amateur sports, and then another guy posts some great amateur sports pictures....and so on.

All I think is that the overstated disappointment of some D30 owners isn't really a fair reflection of a new camera that very few of us have seen, much less shot with. I mean, really, didn't one guy in this thread say that he shot basketball and only got 10% of his shots in focus? Well, fer cryin' out loud, I bet I could photograph basketball with my 4x5 and only get 5% in focus. Does that mean that my 4x5 sucks as a camera? Of course not. I'm just not using the right tool.

I can really get with this idea that absolute failings in a camera are serious limitations when it's the best that's available, and while the D30 was Canon's top D-SLR I can really see the frustration of having to use the D30 despite its shortcomings in situations where it doesn't perform well. If the D30 is the only option he has, then his complaints are very legitimate.

But then I think Canon FIXES the shortcomings when it introduces a better camera that doesn't HAVE those shortcomings! People complained about the AF on the D30. So Canon introduces the EOS 1D, which autofocuses fast as blazes. And then people say that Canon hasn't listened to their complaints about slow AF. Well, it HAS. The 1D is the response. That's the thing.

See what I mean?

--Mike-- http://www.37thframe.com
 
if we follow Steve B from ihio or where ever he,s from, we are not allowed to be dissapointed with the specifications that are released to us by Canon. And if this camera had a much imporved AF then maybe their marketing woud have hinted or mentioned it gee phil might have even noticed it but forgot to mention it.

If he and all of the other users are happy then that is great but allow those of us who are not to have an opinion based on what has been presented to us to date.

Stating that we need to buy a $5000US camera with some obvious issues is bordering on the edge of reality. --Regards Richard
 
Karlg,

I couldn't agree with you more...

I just wish it would sort out sooner, rather than later ;^).

Jim
Karlg said:
Some have theorized that it is not a cost but a “preserving market”
for the more expensive 1D. In any event, it does look like Canon
ignored the most common concern of serious D30 users.

Most of the people “complaining” about the Autofocus are not asking
for 1D/1V like performance, just something that works like a
mid-range film camera. Something they could use to shoot an
amateur sporting event.

Personally, I am frustrated because I was ready to pay $3,000 if
the AF was better. While there are some other features
enhancements of the D60 that I like, they did not fix my number one
issue with the D30. I’m not ready to make the jump all the way to
a 1D.

I’m caught betwixt and between with the D60 and 1D. I want a
digital SLR with better AF. I’m not sure I’m ready to dump my
relatively new lens collection to go with Nikon and the not yet
available and tested D100. So I think that I am with a lot of
people that hope that Canon gets hammered a bit by the D100 with a
better AF system (which it reportedly should have from the F80),
for either playing “cute” protecting the 1D market or because they
ignored their customers’ concerns with the D30. I believe that
the free market tends to take care of these things in the long run,
but it can be frustrating in the short run.

Karl
Roger LePage said:
I am growing very tired of reading negative comments about Canon
and the D30/D60. The D60 isn’t on the shelves yet and everyone is
declaring it a piece of junk. I purchased a D30 this spring, it
has taken over most of the photography I had used a Hasselblad for.
I still use the Hasselblad for magazine covers. I’ve used the D30
for catalog, fashion, portraits and even food photography that I
had previously shot with 4x5. Every time I down load images, the
camera impresses me, I guess that’s what matters. The company I
work for purchased a Canon D2000 ($12,000) few years ago, the D30
images kicks it’s but. If the D60 has all the qualities of D30 and
more rez, GREAT. Cameras are just a piece of equipment, not
perfect, doesn’t matter what brand, get comfortable with it and
make the most of what it has.
Click to expand...
--
Karl
Click to expand...
 
Richard M said:
if we follow Steve B from ihio or where ever he,s from, we are not
allowed to be dissapointed with the specifications that are
released to us by Canon.
Click to expand...
Censorship is a government's threat of punitive action to block disallowed speech, or action taken to punish disallowed speech that has already occurred. The idea that someone's criticism of commentary in a web forum amounts to "not allowing" "us" to do something, or is like "censorship," is totally bogus . You can say what you want. He can do nothing to stop you. If his criticism is, in your mind, equivalent to "not allowing" you to say what you want, then that's a problem of your own -- not something caused by him.

If you feel otherwise, then here's a simple enough task: merely demonstrate how it is he can stop you or somehow punish you for speaking your mind. (Hint: the mere claim of censorship is not the proof that it occurred. Stranger than fiction, eh?)
Richard M said:
If he and all of the other users are happy then that is great but
allow those of us who are not to have an opinion based on what has
been presented to us to date.
Click to expand...
Again: you might try demonstrating how this is "not allowed" -- for instance, you could demonstrate how it was "not allowed" for you to post the very remarks you've only just posted and which I've quoted here. If you have a good case to make, this should be extremely easy to do, no?
Richard M said:
Stating that we need to buy a $5000US camera with some obvious
issues is bordering on the edge of reality.
Click to expand...
Last I noticed, nobody's holding a gun to anyone else's head and insisting they "need" to buy a $5,000 camera that they don't want.

Your message boils down to: "I really didn't like what he wrote!" -- a damned far cry from "censorship"...
 
Point a:

You certainly are allowed to be disappointed in the specs of a camera. You just need to look at the specs in the context they are meant to be viewed. The D60, nor the D30, is not meant to be a professional camera. It is not meant for professional use. If someone chooses to use it in a professional environment, that is their choice. But, you can't expect it to live up to the expectations you would have from professional equipment. If you were to make a comparrison to 35mm, it would be like expecting the same performance out of a Rebel 2000 as you would get from a 1V. It's not going to happen.

Point b:

Once people stop worrying about what camera they shoot, what the resolution of the camera is, etc., and start worrying more about WHAT and HOW they are shooting, their pictures would GREATLY improve. It's not the camera that makes the picture, it's the photographer using that camera. You can give a neophyte a 1D and he'll more than likely end up with garbage, but you can give some with some experience a pinhole camera and end up with something wonderful.

Andy
Richard M said:
if we follow Steve B from ihio or where ever he,s from, we are not
allowed to be dissapointed with the specifications that are
released to us by Canon. And if this camera had a much imporved AF
then maybe their marketing woud have hinted or mentioned it gee
phil might have even noticed it but forgot to mention it.

If he and all of the other users are happy then that is great but
allow those of us who are not to have an opinion based on what has
been presented to us to date.

Stating that we need to buy a $5000US camera with some obvious
issues is bordering on the edge of reality.
--
Regards
Richard
Click to expand...
 
The capabalities of hte camera are part of the 'how', just like when you choose the type of film you will be shooting with. Especially with digital when so much of the electronics also plays a part in the 'how'.

Joo
Andy Somnifac said:
You certainly are allowed to be disappointed in the specs of a
camera. You just need to look at the specs in the context they are
meant to be viewed. The D60, nor the D30, is not meant to be a
professional camera. It is not meant for professional use. If
someone chooses to use it in a professional environment, that is
their choice. But, you can't expect it to live up to the
expectations you would have from professional equipment. If you
were to make a comparrison to 35mm, it would be like expecting the
same performance out of a Rebel 2000 as you would get from a 1V.
It's not going to happen.

Point b:

Once people stop worrying about what camera they shoot, what the
resolution of the camera is, etc., and start worrying more about
WHAT and HOW they are shooting, their pictures would GREATLY
improve. It's not the camera that makes the picture, it's the
photographer using that camera. You can give a neophyte a 1D and
he'll more than likely end up with garbage, but you can give some
with some experience a pinhole camera and end up with something
wonderful.

Andy
Richard M said:
if we follow Steve B from ihio or where ever he,s from, we are not
allowed to be dissapointed with the specifications that are
released to us by Canon. And if this camera had a much imporved AF
then maybe their marketing woud have hinted or mentioned it gee
phil might have even noticed it but forgot to mention it.

If he and all of the other users are happy then that is great but
allow those of us who are not to have an opinion based on what has
been presented to us to date.

Stating that we need to buy a $5000US camera with some obvious
issues is bordering on the edge of reality.
--
Regards
Richard
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
--- Canon D-30 & PowerShot S100- Maybe one day I'll take a decent picture. In the meantime, I'll blame the equipment. :)
 
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