Canon Flaming

May I ask two question ?:

1. did you read a full D60 production model review anywhere ?
2. did you try a D60 production model ?

Why don't you guys just wait for a in-depth review from Phil and other sources before starting to be "disappointed" ? It seems some people have too much time talking about cameras they never tried, politics they don't understand and women they aren't married to. ))

Karlg said:

Some have theorized that it is not a cost but a “preserving market”
for the more expensive 1D. In any event, it does look like Canon
ignored the most common concern of serious D30 users.

Most of the people “complaining” about the Autofocus are not asking
for 1D/1V like performance, just something that works like a
mid-range film camera. Something they could use to shoot an
amateur sporting event.

Personally, I am frustrated because I was ready to pay $3,000 if
the AF was better. While there are some other features
enhancements of the D60 that I like, they did not fix my number one
issue with the D30. I’m not ready to make the jump all the way to
a 1D.

I’m caught betwixt and between with the D60 and 1D. I want a
digital SLR with better AF. I’m not sure I’m ready to dump my
relatively new lens collection to go with Nikon and the not yet
available and tested D100. So I think that I am with a lot of
people that hope that Canon gets hammered a bit by the D100 with a
better AF system (which it reportedly should have from the F80),
for either playing “cute” protecting the 1D market or because they
ignored their customers’ concerns with the D30. I believe that
the free market tends to take care of these things in the long run,
but it can be frustrating in the short run.

Karl

Roger LePage said:

I am growing very tired of reading negative comments about Canon
and the D30/D60. The D60 isn’t on the shelves yet and everyone is
declaring it a piece of junk. I purchased a D30 this spring, it
has taken over most of the photography I had used a Hasselblad for.
I still use the Hasselblad for magazine covers. I’ve used the D30
for catalog, fashion, portraits and even food photography that I
had previously shot with 4x5. Every time I down load images, the
camera impresses me, I guess that’s what matters. The company I
work for purchased a Canon D2000 ($12,000) few years ago, the D30
images kicks it’s but. If the D60 has all the qualities of D30 and
more rez, GREAT. Cameras are just a piece of equipment, not
perfect, doesn’t matter what brand, get comfortable with it and
make the most of what it has.

Click to expand...

--
Karl

Click to expand...

The D30 is a very good digital camera and you can get beautiful results out of it. It doesn't make you a better photographer though and I think this is exactly the problem some people have with the D30. They buy the D30 and think it makes a better photographer out of them but this is not the case. A good photographer knows how to deal with the lacks of the D30 and if somebody thinks he is too "good" for the D30, he might consider upgrading to the 1D.

D30Photo said:

Do I want a better camera? Sure I do. But will a better camera
like the D60/1D makes me a better photographer? Surely not! So do I
NEED a new camera beyond my D30? NOT until I'm so good that someone
else would willing to buy it for me.

If the D30 is good enough for a pro like you, why shouldn't it be
good enough for an amateur like me.

Roger LePage said:

I am growing very tired of reading negative comments about Canon
and the D30/D60. The D60 isn’t on the shelves yet and everyone is
declaring it a piece of junk. I purchased a D30 this spring, it
has taken over most of the photography I had used a Hasselblad for.
I still use the Hasselblad for magazine covers. I’ve used the D30
for catalog, fashion, portraits and even food photography that I
had previously shot with 4x5. Every time I down load images, the
camera impresses me, I guess that’s what matters. The company I
work for purchased a Canon D2000 ($12,000) few years ago, the D30
images kicks it’s but. If the D60 has all the qualities of D30 and
more rez, GREAT. Cameras are just a piece of equipment, not
perfect, doesn’t matter what brand, get comfortable with it and
make the most of what it has.

Click to expand...

--
TN

http://www.photovideodisc.com

Click to expand...

RC said:

May I ask two question ?:

1. did you read a full D60 production model review anywhere ?
2. did you try a D60 production model ?

Why don't you guys just wait for a in-depth review from Phil and
other sources before starting to be "disappointed" ? It seems some

Click to expand...

This is how we wait.

RC said:

people have too much time talking about cameras they never tried,
politics they don't understand and women they aren't married to.
))

Karlg said:

Some have theorized that it is not a cost but a “preserving market”
for the more expensive 1D. In any event, it does look like Canon
ignored the most common concern of serious D30 users.

Most of the people “complaining” about the Autofocus are not asking
for 1D/1V like performance, just something that works like a
mid-range film camera. Something they could use to shoot an
amateur sporting event.

Personally, I am frustrated because I was ready to pay $3,000 if
the AF was better. While there are some other features
enhancements of the D60 that I like, they did not fix my number one
issue with the D30. I’m not ready to make the jump all the way to
a 1D.

I’m caught betwixt and between with the D60 and 1D. I want a
digital SLR with better AF. I’m not sure I’m ready to dump my
relatively new lens collection to go with Nikon and the not yet
available and tested D100. So I think that I am with a lot of
people that hope that Canon gets hammered a bit by the D100 with a
better AF system (which it reportedly should have from the F80),
for either playing “cute” protecting the 1D market or because they
ignored their customers’ concerns with the D30. I believe that
the free market tends to take care of these things in the long run,
but it can be frustrating in the short run.

Karl

Roger LePage said:

I am growing very tired of reading negative comments about Canon
and the D30/D60. The D60 isn’t on the shelves yet and everyone is
declaring it a piece of junk. I purchased a D30 this spring, it
has taken over most of the photography I had used a Hasselblad for.
I still use the Hasselblad for magazine covers. I’ve used the D30
for catalog, fashion, portraits and even food photography that I
had previously shot with 4x5. Every time I down load images, the
camera impresses me, I guess that’s what matters. The company I
work for purchased a Canon D2000 ($12,000) few years ago, the D30
images kicks it’s but. If the D60 has all the qualities of D30 and
more rez, GREAT. Cameras are just a piece of equipment, not
perfect, doesn’t matter what brand, get comfortable with it and
make the most of what it has.

Click to expand...

--
Karl

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--- Canon D-30 & PowerShot S100- Maybe one day I'll take a decent picture. In the meantime, I'll blame the equipment.

Joo said:

I am growing very tired of negative comments about post that
identify potential short comings of the D60 and the inadequacies of
the D60 for certain people. These people who are flaming the canon
flaming don't seem to realize:

A) that there are other people who have different photographic
needs from them
B) Wanted to upgrade to the D60
C) Don't feel that the D60 is enough of an "improvement" to justify
handing over their money to Canon.
D) Wanting the D60 to be better than it is / will be does not
equate to wanting the D60 to be a 1D. That there can be / is a
middle ground between the 1D and D60 that allows the D60 to be
improved without approaching the quality of the 1D.

Joo

Click to expand...

This is exactly how I feel. I sold my D30 & have a 1D on order. I want a fast, accurate AF. Although it will be great at times, I could certainly live without 8fps.

There is plenty of middle ground here that could have been filled by a slightly better D60.

-John

RC said:

May I ask two question ?:

1. did you read a full D60 production model review anywhere ?

Click to expand...

No, I think I sufficiently qualified my remarks as such. Much of a Forum is based on opinions based on available information.

What I have been looking for from Canon in their announcements and the pre-reviews is that they have seriously addressed the AF issues with the D30 PARTICULARLY the AI predictive auto focus (no mention as far as I can see).

One thing missing from even in-depth reviews is much of a quantative assessment of the AF capabilities of a camera. Most of the comments are subjective or just give a low light focusing number.

RC said:

2. did you try a D60 production model ?

Click to expand...

Of course not.

RC said:

Why don't you guys just wait for a in-depth review from Phil and
other sources before starting to be "disappointed" ? It seems some
people have too much time talking about cameras they never tried,
politics they don't understand and women they aren't married to.
))

Click to expand...

So you want to arbitrate what is appropriate on this forum? People can’t be disappointed that Canon did not in their press materials and by the casual comments by reviewers like Phil seem to seriously address the AF?

I recently took a lot of Basketball shots using the D30's AF system and had to throw out about 40% of them due to erratic AI AF behavior (using both 85F1.8 and 70-200F2.8L lenses). I have yet to put a picture in the “bit bucket” because there were not enough pixels. Even in good light the predictive AF misses a lot. You could argue that the feature is “not important,” but then why did Canon bother to put one in the camera at all?

I’m not crying that I paid $3,000 for a D30 (I bought one when it first came out and have gotten a lot of good use out of it). I’m not crying about spending another $3,000 just to get a camera with good auto focus. I am saying that another $5,000 is getting to be a bit much to fix the AF problem. I’m not asking for a D60 that has all the features of a 1D at $3,000. I’m just suggesting that it would be good if they had a $3,000 D-SLR with the AF system of a $400 film camera.

I think a lot of people want to send a message that Canon did not seem to adequitley address the most glaring weakness in the D30. The people want to make it clear that it is a very important issue that Canon cannot sluff off.

I have rarely said to myself that I needed a camera with more pixels and I seriously doubt that 99.999% of pictures that will be taken really need more than 3 Megapixels (they often could use lower noise ones in low light). More would be nice, but not really necessary. Most amateurs would get more good photos from a camera with a AF system better than a D30.

Karl
--Karl

JohnM31499 said:

There is plenty of middle ground here that could have been filled
by a slightly better D60.

-John

Click to expand...

But it wasn't. Get over it. Canon is not Burger King. Apparently you cannot always "have it your way". If endless whining didn't motivate Canon to do what you want with the D60, continued whining is unlikely to be any more effective.

Focusing a camera is a rudimentary skill. On those rare occasions where my camera has difficulty focusing, I boldly take matters into my own hands, focus it myself and take the shot. It probably explains how to do this in the manual somewhere.

I wrote a serious letter to Canon telling them I was going to hold my breath until they put everything I want on a camera and sell it to me at the price of my choice. They suggested that if I was that unhappy with an Conon product that nobody has, and that I haven't used, perhaps I would be better off whining about a Nikon product that nobody has, and that I haven't used. Or maybe a Sigma that nobody has and that I haven't used. The possibilities are endless.--EB

The misspelled word in the fourth line from the bottom of my previous post is the fault of this damned Logitech keyboard. Is there maybe a Logitech forum somewhere?--EB

Roger LePage said:

I am growing very tired of reading negative comments about Canon
and the D30/D60. The D60 isn’t on the shelves yet and everyone is
declaring it a piece of junk. I purchased a D30 this spring, it
has taken over most of the photography I had used a Hasselblad for.
I still use the Hasselblad for magazine covers. I’ve used the D30
for catalog, fashion, portraits and even food photography that I
had previously shot with 4x5. Every time I down load images, the
camera impresses me, I guess that’s what matters. The company I
work for purchased a Canon D2000 ($12,000) few years ago, the D30
images kicks it’s but. If the D60 has all the qualities of D30 and
more rez, GREAT. Cameras are just a piece of equipment, not
perfect, doesn’t matter what brand, get comfortable with it and
make the most of what it has.

Click to expand...

In general this Forum is a Canon Lovefest. Some people may be expressing theoretical frustration over the new D60 (I say theoretcal because it isn't in our hands yet). Or some of the shortfalls of the D30, (it does have them). But in general this place is a haven for D30 and Canon DSLR fans, like myself who like the camera(s) very much. I think you are hearing the normal complaining based on what "it" could be, "It" being anything you really want or have and the hope it could be better. --Mike Bauer

I have seen excellent shots taken from home made pinhole cameras. I've seen total trash from a 'Blad.

Photography is an artform. Part of art is learning how to make the most of the tools available.

I agree that Canon should listen to us - the consumer - and address the percieved flaws in the current camera lineup. Posts in this forum seem to say they haven't, although the D60 isn't even for sale yet.

Maybe everyone would be happy if they recalled all D30s and D60s and put a split screen viewfinder in them. This would make manual focusing easier, and we could never complain about the "poor" autofucus system.

Maybe I'm alone in this view, but when the camera makes all the decisions, does all the focusing and metering, where is the art? Composition is all that is left, and many times this is pure luck. Give BoBo the chimp a D30 and a microdrive and let him go to town. Eventually he'll get an award winning photo.

Personally, I'd rather be good than lucky, but I'll never turn down luck.

Two honest questions:

1) Would you buy a Ferrari with a 1.8 liter four cylinder engine?

2) Do you own a D30?

E. Blues said:

Focusing a camera is a rudimentary skill. On those rare occasions
where my camera has difficulty focusing, I boldly take matters into
my own hands, focus it myself and take the shot. It probably
explains how to do this in the manual somewhere.

Click to expand...

A lot of people would if the price were right.

Dean O said:

1) Would you buy a Ferrari with a 1.8 liter four cylinder engine?

--The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.netPhotography -- just another word for compromise

Click to expand...

Dean O said:

1) Would you buy a Ferrari with a 1.8 liter four cylinder engine?

Click to expand...

Sure! Chicks dig the slick car, and I wouldn't have to worry about any speeding tickets.

But then I used to have a Porsche with a four cylinder. Got several tickets in that little Turbo......

Roger LePage et al,

Roger you hinted at the reproduction capabilities of the D30/D60, but I didn't quite get it.

Will the D30/D60 make a file capable of reproducing a double truck (two page spread) color magazine image or not?

Yes, I am a magazine shooter (boating, travel, adventure) myself and this ability is key in my making the switch to digital (D60 + L glass) from Velvia film.

Thanks for filling in the blanks,
JL--...f8 and be there!

Karl Guttag said:

I recently took a lot of Basketball shots using the D30's AF system
and had to throw out about 40% of them due to erratic AI AF
behavior (using both 85F1.8 and 70-200F2.8L lenses). I have yet
to put a picture in the “bit bucket” because there were not enough
pixels. Even in good light the predictive AF misses a lot. You
could argue that the feature is “not important,” but then why did
Canon bother to put one in the camera at all?

I’m not crying that I paid $3,000 for a D30 (I bought one when it
first came out and have gotten a lot of good use out of it). I’m
not crying about spending another $3,000 just to get a camera with
good auto focus. I am saying that another $5,000 is getting to be
a bit much to fix the AF problem. I’m not asking for a D60 that
has all the features of a 1D at $3,000. I’m just suggesting that
it would be good if they had a $3,000 D-SLR with the AF system of a
$400 film camera.

I think a lot of people want to send a message that Canon did not
seem to adequitley address the most glaring weakness in the D30.
The people want to make it clear that it is a very important issue
that Canon cannot sluff off.

I have rarely said to myself that I needed a camera with more
pixels and I seriously doubt that 99.999% of pictures that will be
taken really need more than 3 Megapixels (they often could use
lower noise ones in low light). More would be nice, but not really
necessary. Most amateurs would get more good photos from a camera
with a AF system better than a D30.

Click to expand...

I think these sentiments would agree with what a lot of D30 owners are thinking right now.

E. Blues said:

The misspelled word in the fourth line from the bottom of my
previous post is the fault of this damned Logitech keyboard. Is
there maybe a Logitech forum somewhere?

Click to expand...

Easy BIg-fellow, ...typos happen. (Even though typing is a relatively "rudimentary" skill)
;-)

Oh!, ...OK I certainly understand that it wasn't YOUR FAULT. It was the &%# ^! KEYBOARD!

(O/C anyone?)

E. Blues said:

Focusing a camera is a rudimentary skill. On those rare occasions where > my camera has difficulty focusing, I boldly take matters into my own hands, > focus it myself and take the shot.

Click to expand...

Many of us that are quite competent manual-transmission "shifters" expect the automatic transmission in a car that HAS ONE, to function well.

But if all you really want to establish is your superiority, then I hereby grant you that.

Let me put it another way: "I agree that anyone who complains about the D30's AF is a simpleton!" (No beating around the bush)

How's that?

Larry

E. Blues said:

But it wasn't. Get over it. Canon is not Burger King. Apparently
you cannot always "have it your way". If endless whining didn't
motivate Canon to do what you want with the D60, continued whining
is unlikely to be any more effective.

Click to expand...

Well excuse me, I guess we should all just shut up & keep paying whatever Canon charges for their products, regardless of quality or value per dollar, with no complaints?? Congratulations EB, you win the moron post of the day award, hands down!!

E. Blues said:

Focusing a camera is a rudimentary skill. On those rare occasions
where my camera has difficulty focusing, I boldly take matters into
my own hands, focus it myself and take the shot. It probably
explains how to do this in the manual somewhere.

Click to expand...

I'm sure I'm every bit as capable of focusing a camera manually as you are(my first slr was a NikonF), but I don't think that it's unreasonable to expect a brand new $3000 camera to AF as well as a Canon film camera that sells for under $400.

I think the bottom line is something like this:

1. Some people are whining about the inadequacies of the D60 when there aren't even any production models in the stores yet!!

2. Some people are whining about the D60 not being a revolutionary upgrade from the D30, in effect second-guessing Canon's marketing and engineering prowess. Those same people are generally unsatisfied with their D30's for the same reasons (primarily the mythical poor autofocus).

Here is the crux of it, as I see it: Those who fall into the above catgegories probably shouldn't have purchased a D30 to begin with. They would be much happier with a 1d or another manufacturer's camera which is better tuned for low light sports photography. That simply isn't the D30's strong suit.

So what? It should be a matter of fitting the proper tool to the job. All this whining is like someone complaining about how their new Cadillac has a lousy turning radius compared to someone else's Honda Accord. If that was important to them, then why the heck didn't they get the Accord to begin with??? Instead we see complaining about how Cadillac deliberately crippled the turning radius of their products for some sinister purpose. ;-)

Me, I'll just continue to enjoy cruising along in the sunshine in my nice noise free Caddy!

Joo said:

I am growing very tired of negative comments about post that
identify potential short comings of the D60 and the inadequacies of
the D60 for certain people. These people who are flaming the canon
flaming don't seem to realize:

A) that there are other people who have different photographic
needs from them
B) Wanted to upgrade to the D60
C) Don't feel that the D60 is enough of an "improvement" to justify
handing over their money to Canon.
D) Wanting the D60 to be better than it is / will be does not
equate to wanting the D60 to be a 1D. That there can be / is a
middle ground between the 1D and D60 that allows the D60 to be
improved without approaching the quality of the 1D.

Joo

Click to expand...

--Steve http://home.att.net/~bishopweb/

Dean O said:

Two honest questions:

1) Would you buy a Ferrari with a 1.8 liter four cylinder engine?

2) Do you own a D30?

Click to expand...

1)I actually DID buy a Ferrari with a 2-liter 4-cyl engine. It was an early 60's Testa Rosa race car, and it did everything I expected of it. That is, until it burnt a $175 sodium-filled exhaust valve, available only from Chinetti.

2) Yep--EB

JohnM said:

Well excuse me, I guess we should all just shut up & keep paying
whatever Canon charges for their products, regardless of quality
or value per dollar, with no complaints?? Congratulations EB, you
win the moron post of the day award, hands down!!

Click to expand...

I confess readily to the moron part. Been one for years. Then again, it's been a while since I bought a camera I didn't like, then bitched about it instead of getting something else. We morons tend to take the easy way out.

JohnM31499 said:

I'm sure I'm every bit as capable of focusing a camera manually as
you are(my first slr was a NikonF), but I don't think that it's
unreasonable to expect a brand new $3000 camera to AF as well as a
Canon film camera that sells for under $400.

Click to expand...

I never intended to put your ability to focus a camera in doubt. I'm sure you can focus just fine. (Nikon F and all that.) I, too don't think it's unreasonable to expect a brand-new $3000 camera to AF properly. I think it's maybe a little unreasonable to BUY a camera with such well-documented shortcomings, then complain about it instead of getting something else that works satisfactorily.

Maybe I'm just out of my depth, here, intellect-wise. Sorry.

--EB

E. Blues said:

I never intended to put your ability to focus a camera in doubt.
I'm sure you can focus just fine. (Nikon F and all that.) I, too
don't think it's unreasonable to expect a brand-new $3000 camera to
AF properly. I think it's maybe a little unreasonable to BUY a
camera with such well-documented shortcomings, then complain about
it instead of getting something else that works satisfactorily.

Click to expand...

Actually, I bought the D30 when it first came out. The lousy AF had not been documented at all at that time.

I AM getting something that works satisfactorily, I am waiting for the 1D I ordered a while back. I'm just a little irritated with Canon that I have to buy a camera for almost $5,000 to get decent AF however, when the D30 replacement SHOULD have addressed the by now well documented lousy AF problem