Three Questions on Composition

I have three questions on composition:

1. Do you know after you take a picture if your composition was good or do you have someone else critique your picture?

2. Do you know right away what the composition should be for a shot or do you have to take time to think about the composition before you shoot?

3. How long (days, weeks, months, years) did it take for you to become really good at taking pictures with good composition?

Thanks
Allan

but . .

I compose what I want to see in the viewfinder (usually trying to take into account a final 8x10 crop) . . and then . . . .

I don't worry what others think about the composition.

I've never paid any real attention to "rule of thirds" (in fact, I probably can't tell you exactly what it means).

I just like to shoot something that looks pleasing to me.

allanofcalifornia said:

I have three questions on composition:

1. Do you know after you take a picture if your composition was
good or do you have someone else critique your picture?

2. Do you know right away what the composition should be for a
shot or do you have to take time to think about the composition
before you shoot?

3. How long (days, weeks, months, years) did it take for you to
become really good at taking pictures with good composition?

Thanks
Allan

Click to expand...

--The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.netPhotography -- just another word for compromise

See below for answers from someone who really dove into this totally
addicting hobby about 10 months ago.

allanofcalifornia said:

I have three questions on composition:

1. Do you know after you take a picture if your composition was
good or do you have someone else critique your picture?

Click to expand...

Critiques if can you get them especially at first. Good strong critiques are
hard to come by though. You need to ask and ask at the right place.
Gallery forum, photo.net, etc... Most people will not want to chance
hurting your feelings. After a few books (the Art of Photographing
Nature Art Wolfe and Martha Hill for one), a lot of forum reading
and critiques - you start to understand it.

allanofcalifornia said:

2. Do you know right away what the composition should be for a
shot or do you have to take time to think about the composition
before you shoot?

Click to expand...

For me the scene grabs me and then I try different ways to compose
it. I guess I don't just walk up and say there is perfectly composed shot -
hell I'm still not totally sure what that is. I like what I see in general and
then take shots from a lot of different angles (Love that digital). If I don't
have the time - I just shoot and hope for the best. For me there is a lot
of thought that goes into the shots.

allanofcalifornia said:

3. How long (days, weeks, months, years) did it take for you to
become really good at taking pictures with good composition?

Click to expand...

I'm on 10 months - thousands of pics and I have probably really really
liked 10 or 20 of the pics I've taken. Maybe that should tell me
something (^:

My best advise is to read, read, read and practice practice practice.

Good Luck,
Brian

allanofcalifornia said:

Thanks
Allan

Click to expand...

Excellent response Brian. You hit it right on the head. Read, read, read, - ask, ask, ask. That's how I'm learning.

Regards,--Ralph-----------------------

I bought the "The Art of Photographing Nature" by Art Wolfe and Martha Hill book and I am starting to read it. What other good books do people recommend?

Thanks
Allan

Brian Hansen said:

My best advise is to read, read, read and practice practice practice.

Good Luck,
Brian

Click to expand...

Alan, you pose some very good questions.Let me make a stab at answering them from my perspective.

1. I know* most* of the time whether my composition has told the story
I wanted to tell with the picture.But,someone else might have "told" it
differently by changing the composition.

2. It's nice to have the time to think about the composition but
sometimes you have to shoot fast and "from the gut".This is where
rules help to make reflex (pun intended) shooting yield good results.
Placing the main subject off center creates some dynamism in the
picture (eg. is the subject entering the picture or leaving it;is the
subject looking at something in the picture or out of it?)The dynamism
helps to put more of the story into the frame.Some people
intuitively know how to do that,but being mostly"left brained",I need
the "rule of thirds" to remind myself where to position the "actors".
And of course there are many other rules/aids to help you.You can
find them in any number of good books on photography.

3.Photography is a never ending quest for perfection.Like anything it
requires some study,lots of practice,and looking at photos that are
appealing to you and mimicking their characteristics.Unlike a lot of
quests in life, photography produces tangible measurement of your
improvement every step of the way.

Good shooting,

Beiklo

allanofcalifornia said:

I have three questions on composition:

1. Do you know after you take a picture if your composition was
good or do you have someone else critique your picture?

2. Do you know right away what the composition should be for a
shot or do you have to take time to think about the composition
before you shoot?

3. How long (days, weeks, months, years) did it take for you to
become really good at taking pictures with good composition?

Thanks
Allan

Click to expand...

Allan,

Composition is about art and design no matter what kind of tool you use to express it. The word photography means quite literally "writing with light." The art of photography is really the art of seeing and expressing what you want others to see using light.

I don't think you can put a time limit on how long it takes to learn to see artistically. Some would say that you have the eye, or you don't. It is true that some people come equipped with an artistic eye but I believe you can learn to compose all the elements that make a good photograph. It takes time and study like all things worthwhile.

Learn about line, texture, shape, balance, color, light and dark, and then let the passion come out and be there in the right light or bring it with you.

If there is one book that I can recommend on this topic by a photographer it would be Photography and the Art of Seeing by Freeman Patterson.

Good luck...you are on a long and happy journey,
John L.

allanofcalifornia said:

I have three questions on composition:

Click to expand...

Your answers are going to vary on the person, experience, and maybe on the type of photography. FWIW, I shoot outdoor photography...mostly seascapes and landscapes because that's where I like to spend my time. I started just over a year ago but didn't get serious about it until May 2001 (when I bought the D30).

allanofcalifornia said:

1. Do you know after you take a picture if your composition was
good or do you have someone else critique your picture?

Click to expand...

I usually know before I hit the button, and sometimes before I even pick up the camera. Rarely do I find something that I really like out of something that I thought was just marginally good enough to shoot. But when it's really good, I know it's really good before the camera goes click.

On the flip side...sometimes, I think it's going to be decent, take the photo, and then wonder what I was thinking. It happens.

That said, sometimes I like a comp that others don't and vice-versa, and some comps that I liked a few months ago aren't so great anymore...I'm still defining/refining my tastes and I'm still on the upwards slope of the learning curve...but IMO I have come a long way since last May.

Critiques can be very helpful, but you can't let others think for you. If someone says something, you have to stop, ask why, and determine whether you agree with it or not. I found it helps just as much to critique others' photos as to have my own critiqued. Nothing beats careful consideration of your own ideas and those of others for formulating an opinion.

allanofcalifornia said:

2. Do you know right away what the composition should be for a
shot or do you have to take time to think about the composition
before you shoot?

Click to expand...

Sometimes I know immediately what it will be, sometimes I have to move around until I know I've found the comp, and sometimes I have to really think it through to figure out how I want to shoot it. Usually the latter two.

Sometimes, I discover the 'right' comp is inaccessible or doesn't exist. Sometimes I just can't find the right comp. Sometimes, it takes multiple visits before it strikes me, other times it never happens. And sometimes, I'm just going along when a view slaps me across the face and says "STOP AND TAKE A FREAKIN' PICTURE NOW!"

allanofcalifornia said:

3. How long (days, weeks, months, years) did it take for you to
become really good at taking pictures with good composition?

Click to expand...

I'll rephrase this as, "how long did it take me to get to a point where I was reasonably happy with my compositional skills?"

About 5 months. Spending a part of every day analyzing photos and formulating my own thoughts on what is and is not effective. Shooting 3-4 days a week in the first few months (ah...long summer days), shooting at least once a week by the 5th month (because of the shorter weekdays).

But it's always evolving.

allanofcalifornia said:

Thanks
Allan

Click to expand...

-- http://homepage.mac.com/dudesteve/photography

The only book I read was the National Geographic Nature Photographer's Field Guide. Fantastic book for a beginner. Highly recommend it.

-Steve

allanofcalifornia said:

Thanks
Allan

Brian Hansen said:

My best advise is to read, read, read and practice practice practice.

Good Luck,
Brian

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

-- http://homepage.mac.com/dudesteve/photography

allanofcalifornia said:

I have three questions on composition:

1. Do you know after you take a picture if your composition was
good or do you have someone else critique your picture?

Click to expand...

I show my work around, but usually I know whether or not an image works. I have some friends that teach art in college, my brother is a professional artist, and I stay connected. I look for people whose opinions I respect to critique my work.

allanofcalifornia said:

2. Do you know right away what the composition should be for a
shot or do you have to take time to think about the composition
before you shoot?

Click to expand...

Depends on the piece. Landscapes, I'll think about sometimes for months. Wait for the right time of year, etc. I think about places I want to photograph, time of day I want to shoot, clouds or clear, sunrise or sunset, etc. Other times, I just go out looking for something. Those days are usually a lot less productive. I keep a little file in my head of things I want to shoot, then when I can shake loose, I'm not sitting there with my camera, thinking. Man, I've got three hours. What can I shoot?

allanofcalifornia said:

3. How long (days, weeks, months, years) did it take for you to
become really good at taking pictures with good composition?

Click to expand...

The day you think you're there, you're finished as a photographer. I started drawing when I was four, painting at ten, photography at fourteen (Poloroid Swinger. still remember the commercial). I'd hate to look at work I did five years ago and think it was as good as what I'm doing now, and I'd hate to think five years from now my work isn't any better than it is now. I started out imitating other people. Great way to learn techniques and composition. When you'll really break out is when you start seeing things in a unique way. I see things differently from most people, I guess. When my work is successful, I'm able to capture what I see, and when it's frozen in a photograph, other people see it, too.

allanofcalifornia said:

Thanks
Allan

Click to expand...

Allan,

When I started in junior high, I took picture after picture of the creek a block from my house. Each one I was convinced was beautiful. I have pages and pages of these in an album: Boring as all get out. One day I realized that it wasn't enough for something to be beautiful in person, but the picture had to tell a story or move the eye. After that hit me, after all those wasted rolls, I started to take better shots (I was in college by then).

Take a zillion shots, take anything that looks good to you. Then critique your own images. After a while, you'll start to develop an eye for it and then you won't be able to stop seeing the world in terms of frames.

Tom

allanofcalifornia said:

I have three questions on composition:

1. Do you know after you take a picture if your composition was
good or do you have someone else critique your picture?

2. Do you know right away what the composition should be for a
shot or do you have to take time to think about the composition
before you shoot?

3. How long (days, weeks, months, years) did it take for you to
become really good at taking pictures with good composition?

Thanks
Allan

Click to expand...

allanofcalifornia said:

I have three questions on composition:

1. Do you know after you take a picture if your composition was
good or do you have someone else critique your picture?

2. Do you know right away what the composition should be for a
shot or do you have to take time to think about the composition
before you shoot?

3. How long (days, weeks, months, years) did it take for you to
become really good at taking pictures with good composition?

Thanks
Allan

Click to expand...

My 2 cents worth....

Composition rules are great if you work in the studio where everything is controlled by you. If you are shooting sports or spot news (editorial) the composition sometimes goes out the window. Some of the greatest images of our times were made breaking every rule of composition.

My advise to you is this...read as many books as you can about the general foundation of photography...exposure, exposure, exposure....then work on practicing on the capturing the moment...practice, practice, practice....shoot whatever you find enjoyable and do it often...practice your focusing speed...practice your shutter timing...everything after that will be a cakewalk.

Look at good photography in the area that interests you...if you like to shoot sports, look at the images in Sports Illustrated (the bible of sports shooting....Heinz, Peter, John, and all those guys are GODS!!!....if you don't believe me...try to shot what they shoot)...if you like news, look at Newsweek, Times, World Report...Guys like Chris Morris are the leading news shooters of our time or any time. If you like portraits/fashion/glamour, look at magazines like Elle or the such...guys like Hamilton, Farber, Hewit....Learn what they shoot...

Composition will come naturally once you figure out what you want to express in your images....

And finally....once you figure out all the rules to composition....throw them all out the window and shoot what looks good to you and you alone....you are the photographer and they are your images...

--Carlos http://www.onestarimaging.com

All I can say is WOW. That has to be the best consecutive batch of
responses I have seen - at least on this subject. Allan - I hope you are
taking these to heart because I was nodding my head while reading
every word of these posts.

Steve Mekata - You and I started at the roughly the same time - I related
to very much of what you said. I don't think I am as far along as you in
regards to composition - I think I do more of your opposite - think I'm
taking a great shot and then sit and scratch my head when I see it on
my monitor. "What the hell were you thinking Brian". Do you have a
link to any of your pics?

Stephen Cook - I will give anything to have your passion for this art in
30 years.

A word of warning derived from Tom Conte: YOU WILL START TO
SEE THE WORLD IN FRAMES ONE DAY - YOU CAN NEVER GO BACK.
You've been warned Allan (^:

Brian

allanofcalifornia said:

I have three questions on composition:

1. Do you know after you take a picture if your composition was
good or do you have someone else critique your picture?

2. Do you know right away what the composition should be for a
shot or do you have to take time to think about the composition
before you shoot?

3. How long (days, weeks, months, years) did it take for you to
become really good at taking pictures with good composition?

Thanks
Allan

Click to expand...

Yeah! same here, I shoot anything I that like when I see through my viewfinder. I dun care a damn to what others say.

DavidP said:

I compose what I want to see in the viewfinder (usually trying to
take into account a final 8x10 crop) . . and then . . . .

I don't worry what others think about the composition.

I've never paid any real attention to "rule of thirds" (in fact, I
probably can't tell you exactly what it means).

I just like to shoot something that looks pleasing to me.

allanofcalifornia said:

I have three questions on composition:

1. Do you know after you take a picture if your composition was
good or do you have someone else critique your picture?

2. Do you know right away what the composition should be for a
shot or do you have to take time to think about the composition
before you shoot?

3. How long (days, weeks, months, years) did it take for you to
become really good at taking pictures with good composition?

Thanks
Allan

Click to expand...

--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
Photography -- just another word for compromise

Click to expand...

Brian Hansen said:

All I can say is WOW. That has to be the best consecutive batch of
responses I have seen - at least on this subject.

Click to expand...

Yep...very interesting thread!

Brian Hansen said:

Steve Mekata - You and I started at the roughly the same time - I
related
to very much of what you said. I don't think I am as far along as
you in
regards to composition - I think I do more of your opposite - think
I'm
taking a great shot and then sit and scratch my head when I see it on
my monitor. "What the hell were you thinking Brian". Do you have a
link to any of your pics?

Click to expand...

http://homepage.mac.com/dudesteve/photography

I really need to go through and remove the older images and redo the layout.

How about you, Brian?

-Steve-- http://homepage.mac.com/dudesteve/photography

Thanks for the compliment. Well, you didn't ask me, but here's a link to one of my more recent photos: http://www.bobcook.com/exchange/sunset.htm
Warning. It's about a meg.

I took it about 10 minutes after sunset. Was looking for that subtle change from pink to blue on the water surface, with the trees in black cutout. I like to put a rough border on my photos and print on matte paper.

And finally....once you figure out all the rules to composition....throw them all out the window and shoot what looks good to you and you alone....you are the photographer and they are your images...

Exactly!!!

DM

Carlos Salcedo said:

allanofcalifornia said:

I have three questions on composition:

1. Do you know after you take a picture if your composition was
good or do you have someone else critique your picture?

2. Do you know right away what the composition should be for a
shot or do you have to take time to think about the composition
before you shoot?

3. How long (days, weeks, months, years) did it take for you to
become really good at taking pictures with good composition?

Thanks
Allan

Click to expand...

My 2 cents worth....

Composition rules are great if you work in the studio where
everything is controlled by you. If you are shooting sports or spot
news (editorial) the composition sometimes goes out the window.
Some of the greatest images of our times were made breaking every
rule of composition.

My advise to you is this...read as many books as you can about the
general foundation of photography...exposure, exposure,
exposure....then work on practicing on the capturing the
moment...practice, practice, practice....shoot whatever you find
enjoyable and do it often...practice your focusing speed...practice
your shutter timing...everything after that will be a cakewalk.

Look at good photography in the area that interests you...if you
like to shoot sports, look at the images in Sports Illustrated (the
bible of sports shooting....Heinz, Peter, John, and all those guys
are GODS!!!....if you don't believe me...try to shot what they
shoot)...if you like news, look at Newsweek, Times, World
Report...Guys like Chris Morris are the leading news shooters of
our time or any time. If you like portraits/fashion/glamour, look
at magazines like Elle or the such...guys like Hamilton, Farber,
Hewit....Learn what they shoot...

Composition will come naturally once you figure out what you want
to express in your images....

And finally....once you figure out all the rules to
composition....throw them all out the window and shoot what looks
good to you and you alone....you are the photographer and they are
your images...

--
Carlos

http://www.onestarimaging.com

Click to expand...

I've spent years studing photograpy, reading books, and taking pictures.

I firmly believe that one needs to learn the rules of composition and to learn the elements that can help make or break your images.

First, using the rules will make your photos stronger.

Second, knowing the rule, and why it's there, will tell you when to break it. You might create a dramatic pic by accident when you toss the rulebook out the window, but without knowing WHY, how likely are you to being able to recreate it?

In an example from another post, I said that the rule of thirds tells you that you can make an image more dynamic by running the horizen line through the upper or lower third of the image. This is true. BUT, if the mood you want to convey is calm, or passive, then you may be better off running it straight through the middle. In that case static works FOR you.

Third, knowing the rules can help you FIND photos. If you've learned that strong diagonals may be an element of a strong image, then when you're walking down the street and see a shaft of diagonal light your mind will also light up and say, wait, let's check this out and see if there's a photo here!

Fourth, as others have said look at lots of pictures. When you find something you like try to figure out WHY. Cut up a mat and use it to recrop other peoples images. You may find they did the job. You may also find something they didn't.

Finally, check out a book titled "The Image Bank". It's a great book on composition and learning to see pictures. It's out of print, but there's a used one for sale at Amazon.

allanofcalifornia said:

I have three questions on composition:

1. Do you know after you take a picture if your composition was
good or do you have someone else critique your picture?

Click to expand...

Sometimes when I'd had the time to compose. Since I take mostly unposed photos with people in them I usually have to crop to make the picture better.

allanofcalifornia said:

2. Do you know right away what the composition should be for a
shot or do you have to take time to think about the composition
before you shoot?

Click to expand...

It depends on how familiar the situation is, but most of the time I try to look for new compositions for familiar situations -- so I end up spending more time to think and explore.

allanofcalifornia said:

3. How long (days, weeks, months, years) did it take for you to
become really good at taking pictures with good composition?

Click to expand...

Hmmm... maybe a month or less after I started taking pictures with SLRs -- but I have an artistic background (I paint and draw). When I looked at my very old travel photos taken with point-and-shoots I noticed that I'd been applying compositional principles long before I read about them. I would say it's mostly instinct for me on what looks good. Most of what I had to learn and am still learning is creative lighting.

May I add some words about the rule of thirds -- some "studied" photographers take this too seriously -- to the extent that when a subject is in the middle of the frame then it's immediately dismissed as bad composition. My brother (who'd been a professional fashion photographer) says that you usually apply this when the subject is not too interesting. There are times when the subject is screaming to be put dead center.

Here's an interesting link that shows the portfolio of a wedding photographer -- there's so many (and sometimes unconventional) compositional techniques used in this gallery that might give you more ideas.

http://decisivemoments.tripod.com

allanofcalifornia said:

Thanks
Allan

Click to expand...

I am really excited to be able to learn about composition and to have read the wonderful posts! They are fantastic! It's very exicting to know that I might be able to take some wonderful pictures in the future!

But at the same time I really feel very stupid. I never really knew what composition was until I started reading a book two days ago.

I can not believe how much there is to learn about composition and I wonder how in the world will I ever be able to take pictures with good composition.

I think it would be so much easier if I had an artist background which I don't.

I am sure that it will become a lot easier with experience but right now I feel like someone just gave me a blank canvas and told me to paint a picture. How in the world do I start? LOL

I am hoping that the next time you see me post any pictures that they will be much much better! If not, then you should flame me!

Allan