420EX flash Questions

Mike Dobbs · Feb 25, 2002

Bought my first Canon flash this weekend and used it on my D30 at a wedding (not as primary photographer).

Since my previous flash experience consisted of a Minolta 360 P flash in auto exp. mode with the D30 in full manual, I had to learn the ways of E-TTL rather quickly. My preliminary tests the night before showed me the full program mode seemed to give me the most reliable exposures.

Here are some issues I had during and after the shoot:

1. The automatic lens coverage angle on the flash doesn't take into account the 1.6x crop factor ofthe D30. Is this something to worry about (I made heavy use of my Sigma 17-35)?

2. When I tried using shutter priority modes, prior to shooting I'd usually get a really slow (under 1/20 sec) shutter speed, even at f2.8...as if the flash wasn't expected to fire.

3. In program mode, I only ever saw 1/60 sec as shutter speed. Since the flash was regularly serving as fill, a lot of my shots have small amounts of motion blur. Is there a way to select higher shutter speeds whle in program mode, like there is under non-flash situations (rotating the wheel cycles to other shutter/ap combinations...didn't seem to work wi th the flash connected though)?

Despite these learning challenges, I was very impressed with the 420EX. I was particluarly surprised by the colour balanace of the shots (auto WB for all) compared to what I had come to expect from my previous flash (usually a cold blue cast). Skin and other tones were very rich & accurate with the 420. Does the D30 auto WB know the flash is there and use flash WB?
The recycle time was also impressive.

One thing I definately didn't like was the lock buttons on the tilt head. It was much trouble to have to press the two buttons to release the tilt/swivel locks...my old flash just had detents that did an excellent job.

Mike.

Scotty B · Feb 25, 2002

Mike,

I just bought the 420 and haven't used it yet. I'm very interested in the questions you raised as well.

The one thing I do know is the 2 lock buttons on the tiltand swivel are a standard feature on all of the new Canon flash units -- all the way up to the 550EX.

scotty b.

Mike Dobbs said:
Bought my first Canon flash this weekend and used it on my D30 at a
wedding (not as primary photographer).
One thing I definately didn't like was the lock buttons on the tilt
head. It was much trouble to have to press the two buttons to
release the tilt/swivel locks...my old flash just had detents that
did an excellent job.

Mike.

Mike Dobbs · Feb 25, 2002

Now I know what second curtain flash sync does! Too bad I didn't have it set for this shot :-(

Mike.

RichW · Feb 25, 2002

Mike Dobbs said:
Bought my first Canon flash this weekend and used it on my D30 at a
wedding (not as primary photographer).

Since my previous flash experience consisted of a Minolta 360 P
flash in auto exp. mode with the D30 in full manual, I had to learn
the ways of E-TTL rather quickly. My preliminary tests the night
before showed me the full program mode seemed to give me the most
reliable exposures.

Here are some issues I had during and after the shoot:

1. The automatic lens coverage angle on the flash doesn't take into
account the 1.6x crop factor ofthe D30. Is this something to worry
about (I made heavy use of my Sigma 17-35)?

Nothing to worry about. There is some wasted coverage or course. Exposure should be just fine.

Mike Dobbs said:
2. When I tried using shutter priority modes, prior to shooting I'd
usually get a really slow (under 1/20 sec) shutter speed, even at
f2.8...as if the flash wasn't expected to fire.

Don't really understand this. In shutter priority mode you set the shutter speed. How does this give you a slow shutter speed, when you can set any speed you want (up to the sync limits)? If you are using the meter to find this, remember that you are only metering the ambient. Flash exposure is controlled by ETTL and flash compensation.

Mike Dobbs said:
3. In program mode, I only ever saw 1/60 sec as shutter speed.
Since the flash was regularly serving as fill, a lot of my shots
have small amounts of motion blur. Is there a way to select higher
shutter speeds whle in program mode, like there is under non-flash
situations (rotating the wheel cycles to other shutter/ap
combinations...didn't seem to work wi th the flash connected
though)?

I'm not sure about this. Maybe if you had more light it might let you shift the program to give a higher shutter speed. But anyway you are using the wrong mode to do this. You should be using manual mode to make the changes you want. Aperture and shutter speed allow you to adjust the ambient exposure as you like. The flash ETTL will give the subject the proper exposure. You can adjust flash compensation to fine tune that. Good luck,

Rich

Mike Dobbs said:
Mike.

Valliesto Bailey · Feb 25, 2002

The ETTL system will use the flash as fill, this is why you were seeing the slow shutter speeds. There are three ways to get around this. First you can use Manual mode and set both your shutter speed and aperture. Secondly you can use Shutter priority mode, this will result in the camera picking the largest available aperture. Lastly you can use Custom Function #6 to lock your shutter spped to 1/200th in Av mode.

I would suggest trying Manual mode, because it offers the most freedom and does not have the drawbacks of the other modes. With Shutter priorty you will have very shallow DOF, regardless of if you want it or not. With the CFn 6 fix you will be tied to 1/200th, so you can not blur motion.

The lens coverage issue would have been an easy fix, I wonder why Canon did not make it work.

Hope this helps.

Mike Dobbs said:
Bought my first Canon flash this weekend and used it on my D30 at a
wedding (not as primary photographer).

Since my previous flash experience consisted of a Minolta 360 P
flash in auto exp. mode with the D30 in full manual, I had to learn
the ways of E-TTL rather quickly. My preliminary tests the night
before showed me the full program mode seemed to give me the most
reliable exposures.

Here are some issues I had during and after the shoot:

1. The automatic lens coverage angle on the flash doesn't take into
account the 1.6x crop factor ofthe D30. Is this something to worry
about (I made heavy use of my Sigma 17-35)?

2. When I tried using shutter priority modes, prior to shooting I'd
usually get a really slow (under 1/20 sec) shutter speed, even at
f2.8...as if the flash wasn't expected to fire.

3. In program mode, I only ever saw 1/60 sec as shutter speed.
Since the flash was regularly serving as fill, a lot of my shots
have small amounts of motion blur. Is there a way to select higher
shutter speeds whle in program mode, like there is under non-flash
situations (rotating the wheel cycles to other shutter/ap
combinations...didn't seem to work wi th the flash connected
though)?

Despite these learning challenges, I was very impressed with the
420EX. I was particluarly surprised by the colour balanace of the
shots (auto WB for all) compared to what I had come to expect from
my previous flash (usually a cold blue cast). Skin and other tones
were very rich & accurate with the 420. Does the D30 auto WB know
the flash is there and use flash WB?
The recycle time was also impressive.

One thing I definately didn't like was the lock buttons on the tilt
head. It was much trouble to have to press the two buttons to
release the tilt/swivel locks...my old flash just had detents that
did an excellent job.

Mike.

--Valliesto

Mark B. · Feb 25, 2002

Valliesto Bailey said:
The lens coverage issue would have been an easy fix, I wonder why
Canon did not make it work.

There's nothing to "fix". The field of view is exactly the same as a 35mm frame, but the image is being recorded on a cropped portion of it. No different than masking an outer portion of the frame.

Mark

Mike Dobbs · Feb 25, 2002

I understand this, but wouldn't it be better to provide more light to the area getting recorded by the sensor...thereby increasing the max flash range?

Mike.

Mark B. said:
Valliesto Bailey said:

The lens coverage issue would have been an easy fix, I wonder why
Canon did not make it work.

Click to expand...

There's nothing to "fix". The field of view is exactly the same as
a 35mm frame, but the image is being recorded on a cropped portion
of it. No different than masking an outer portion of the frame.

Mark

Aaron Brown · Feb 25, 2002

Mark B. said:
Valliesto Bailey said:

The lens coverage issue would have been an easy fix, I wonder why
Canon did not make it work.

Click to expand...

There's nothing to "fix". The field of view is exactly the same as
a 35mm frame, but the image is being recorded on a cropped portion
of it. No different than masking an outer portion of the frame.

But there's no need to waste flash light on the part of the frame that's cropped! If the flash zoomed to the "effective" focal length rather than the real one, you'd get a higher effective guide number with less wasted light.

--Aaron

RichW · Feb 25, 2002

Sure it would be. You need a flash that would let you input the multiplier number! Anyone at Canon listening here???

Rich

Mike Dobbs said:
Mike.

Mark B. said:

Valliesto Bailey said:

The lens coverage issue would have been an easy fix, I wonder why
Canon did not make it work.

Click to expand...

There's nothing to "fix". The field of view is exactly the same as
a 35mm frame, but the image is being recorded on a cropped portion
of it. No different than masking an outer portion of the frame.

Mark

Click to expand...

Mike Dobbs · Feb 25, 2002

RichW said:
Mike Dobbs said:

2. When I tried using shutter priority modes, prior to shooting I'd
usually get a really slow (under 1/20 sec) shutter speed, even at
f2.8...as if the flash wasn't expected to fire.

Click to expand...

Don't really understand this. In shutter priority mode you set the
shutter speed. How does this give you a slow shutter speed, when
you can set any speed you want (up to the sync limits)? If you are
using the meter to find this, remember that you are only metering
the ambient. Flash exposure is controlled by ETTL and flash
compensation.

Sorry, I meant to say in Apeture priority mode....

RichW said:
RichW said:

3. In program mode, I only ever saw 1/60 sec as shutter speed.
Since the flash was regularly serving as fill, a lot of my shots
have small amounts of motion blur. Is there a way to select higher
shutter speeds whle in program mode, like there is under non-flash
situations (rotating the wheel cycles to other shutter/ap
combinations...didn't seem to work wi th the flash connected
though)?

Click to expand...

I'm not sure about this. Maybe if you had more light it might let
you shift the program to give a higher shutter speed. But anyway
you are using the wrong mode to do this. You should be using
manual mode to make the changes you want. Aperture and shutter
speed allow you to adjust the ambient exposure as you like. The
flash ETTL will give the subject the proper exposure. You can
adjust flash compensation to fine tune that. Good luck,

Rich

Are you saying normally you can change the program mode combinations just like without flash? I'll need to check this out some more.

So I guess I'm a little confused with this new system. If the pre-shot settings are telling me I'm at a very slow shutter speed, it's because it's behaving as if no flash is going to fire. Then when I take the shot, the camera uses these slow settings and the flash controls itself so the subject (presumably in the foreground?) gets proper exposure. This would mean that I need to very careful as to what shutter speed will be so as not to blur background (assuming no tripod). Is this correct?

Mike.

Mike Dobbs · Feb 25, 2002

I was thinking the camera should be capable of sending the "wrong" angle data to the flash, thus fooling the flash into zooming the correct amount for the multiplier. This way you wouldn't need a special series of flashes for the less-than-full-frame cameras...perhaps a camera firmware change could even do it.

Of course once the marketing guys get wind of it, all bets are off ;-)

Mike.

RichW said:
Rich

Mike Dobbs said:

Mike.

Mark B. said:

Valliesto Bailey said:

The lens coverage issue would have been an easy fix, I wonder why
Canon did not make it work.

Click to expand...

There's nothing to "fix". The field of view is exactly the same as
a 35mm frame, but the image is being recorded on a cropped portion
of it. No different than masking an outer portion of the frame.

Mark

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

RichW · Feb 25, 2002

Mike Dobbs said:
Mike Dobbs said:

I'm not sure about this. Maybe if you had more light it might let
you shift the program to give a higher shutter speed. But anyway
you are using the wrong mode to do this. You should be using
manual mode to make the changes you want. Aperture and shutter
speed allow you to adjust the ambient exposure as you like. The
flash ETTL will give the subject the proper exposure. You can
adjust flash compensation to fine tune that. Good luck,

Rich

Click to expand...

Are you saying normally you can change the program mode
combinations just like without flash? I'll need to check this out
some more.

So I guess I'm a little confused with this new system. If the
pre-shot settings are telling me I'm at a very slow shutter speed,
it's because it's behaving as if no flash is going to fire. Then
when I take the shot, the camera uses these slow settings and the
flash controls itself so the subject (presumably in the
foreground?) gets proper exposure. This would mean that I need to
very careful as to what shutter speed will be so as not to blur
background (assuming no tripod). Is this correct?

Mike.

I am not sure about program shift with flash on. I will have to test it out later. You are correct about the metering though. The metering is strictly for the ambient exposure. You do have to keep the shutter speed up. That's why Program mode is giving you a 1/60 limit. In manual mode you are on your own, but with much more control. ETTL and flash compensation are controlling subject exposure. After all, the flash duration is so short, what would the shutter do for you anyway? Good luck,

Rich

Rich

RichW · Feb 25, 2002

Mike Dobbs said:
I was thinking the camera should be capable of sending the "wrong"
angle data to the flash, thus fooling the flash into zooming the
correct amount for the multiplier. This way you wouldn't need a
special series of flashes for the less-than-full-frame
cameras...perhaps a camera firmware change could even do it.

Of course once the marketing guys get wind of it, all bets are off ;-)

Mike.

It appears that the flash is getting the raw lens focal length and the camera is not altering it at all. It sounds like an update that is long overdue. Of course that will probably be in the D90 for another $3000!!!

Rich

Valliesto Bailey · Feb 25, 2002

While you are rignt in general. Why waste that flash power that could be better used for power/distance? Sure it is a marginal amount, but why waste it?

Mark B. said:
Valliesto Bailey said:

The lens coverage issue would have been an easy fix, I wonder why
Canon did not make it work.

Click to expand...

There's nothing to "fix". The field of view is exactly the same as
a 35mm frame, but the image is being recorded on a cropped portion
of it. No different than masking an outer portion of the frame.

Mark

--Valliesto

Mike Dobbs · Feb 26, 2002

Scotty,

Here's a great FAq on EOS flash use:
http://teladesign.com/photo/eos-flash/

Most of what I needed was there.

Cheers!

Mike.

Scotty B said:
I just bought the 420 and haven't used it yet. I'm very interested
in the questions you raised as well.

The one thing I do know is the 2 lock buttons on the tiltand swivel
are a standard feature on all of the new Canon flash units -- all
the way up to the 550EX.

scotty b.

Mike Dobbs said:

Bought my first Canon flash this weekend and used it on my D30 at a
wedding (not as primary photographer).
One thing I definately didn't like was the lock buttons on the tilt
head. It was much trouble to have to press the two buttons to
release the tilt/swivel locks...my old flash just had detents that
did an excellent job.

Mike.

Click to expand...

Scotty B · Feb 27, 2002

Thanx, Mike,

great resource!

have fun shooting,
scotty b.

Mike Dobbs said:
Scotty,

Here's a great FAq on EOS flash use:
http://teladesign.com/photo/eos-flash/

Most of what I needed was there.

Cheers!

Mike.

Jim Altengarten · Feb 27, 2002

Mike Dobbs said:
2. When I tried using shutter priority modes, prior to shooting I'd
usually get a really slow (under 1/20 sec) shutter speed, even at
f2.8...as if the flash wasn't expected to fire.

I noticed that you changed this to Av mode in a later post. When using Av mode, the camera automatically switches to a mode called "slow synch".

It does this to allow the flash to capture ambient light to illuminate the background. In many situations, this results in a slow shutter speed...often one that is difficult to hand-hold.

Mike Dobbs said:
3. In program mode, I only ever saw 1/60 sec as shutter speed.
Since the flash was regularly serving as fill, a lot of my shots
have small amounts of motion blur. Is there a way to select higher
shutter speeds whle in program mode, like there is under non-flash
situations (rotating the wheel cycles to other shutter/ap
combinations...didn't seem to work wi th the flash connected
though)?

The camera will select a shutter speed between 1/60th and the flash synch speed when in P mode using flash. The exact shutter speed is determined by the lighting conditions. It sounds like you were in a fairly low light situation and the flash/subject distance was such that only 1/60 would proberly illuminate the subject.

P Mode is good for flash photography except in low light conditions because the light from the flash (in those circumstances) has limited distance and tha background gets underexposed or often goes black.

Remember that f-stop and flash/subject distance are the two main exposure controls. If you are trying to shoot at f11, for example, with the 420EX the flash will illumination will extend to less than 4 meters.

As others have mentioned, Manual mode is another alternative that allows more control. Also, High Speed synch is available on the 420EX if you want to use to use a faster shutter speed. However, that drastically cuts down the distance that the illumination will extend.

Jim--exposure36 Photography landscape/creative vision/educationwww.exposure36.com

Mike Dobbs · Feb 27, 2002

Thanks for your tips...

I've read up a lot on the EOS Flash since the weekend. The issue re. P mode shifting is addressed in the D30 manual "Program shift cannot be done during flash use".

I guess in the heat of the moment I couldn't figure out how to use the manual mode for flash. I was so used to setting an ISO speed & F-stop on the flash and just shooting with my old Minolta unit. The 420 threw me cause there's no manual mode settings on the flash itself. Now I think about, this is all possible on the camera itself. Main difference will be know roughly how far the flash will provide good exposure at the chosen f-stop. My old flash has a nice distance ring for this.

Mike.

Jim Altengarten said:
Jim Altengarten said:

2. When I tried using shutter priority modes, prior to shooting I'd
usually get a really slow (under 1/20 sec) shutter speed, even at
f2.8...as if the flash wasn't expected to fire.

Click to expand...

I noticed that you changed this to Av mode in a later post. When
using Av mode, the camera automatically switches to a mode called
"slow synch".
It does this to allow the flash to capture ambient light to
illuminate the background. In many situations, this results in a
slow shutter speed...often one that is difficult to hand-hold.

Jim Altengarten said:

3. In program mode, I only ever saw 1/60 sec as shutter speed.
Since the flash was regularly serving as fill, a lot of my shots
have small amounts of motion blur. Is there a way to select higher
shutter speeds whle in program mode, like there is under non-flash
situations (rotating the wheel cycles to other shutter/ap
combinations...didn't seem to work wi th the flash connected
though)?

Click to expand...

The camera will select a shutter speed between 1/60th and the flash
synch speed when in P mode using flash. The exact shutter speed is
determined by the lighting conditions. It sounds like you were in
a fairly low light situation and the flash/subject distance was
such that only 1/60 would proberly illuminate the subject.

P Mode is good for flash photography except in low light conditions
because the light from the flash (in those circumstances) has
limited distance and tha background gets underexposed or often goes
black.

Remember that f-stop and flash/subject distance are the two main
exposure controls. If you are trying to shoot at f11, for example,
with the 420EX the flash will illumination will extend to less than
4 meters.

As others have mentioned, Manual mode is another alternative that
allows more control. Also, High Speed synch is available on the
420EX if you want to use to use a faster shutter speed. However,
that drastically cuts down the distance that the illumination will
extend.

Jim
--
exposure36 Photography
landscape/creative vision/education

http://www.exposure36.com

Jim Altengarten · Feb 27, 2002

Mike Dobbs said:
.... Main difference will be know roughly how far the flash will
provide good exposure at the chosen f-stop. My old flash has a nice
distance ring for this.

You can use the Guide Number of the flash to determine the approximate** distance.

Divide the GN by the f-stop to get the approximate flash subject distance.

The GN on EX flashes are in their names, for example the 550EX has a GN or 55 (in meters), the 420EX has a GN of 42 (in meters), and I won't continue with the 220EX because you get my drift.

Jim--exposure36 Photography landscape/creative vision/educationwww.exposure36.com

Mike Dobbs · Feb 27, 2002

So how, some "when" I KNEW that, honest.....

;-)

Mike.

Jim Altengarten said:
Jim Altengarten said:

.... Main difference will be know roughly how far the flash will
provide good exposure at the chosen f-stop. My old flash has a nice
distance ring for this.

Click to expand...

You can use the Guide Number of the flash to determine the
approximate** distance.

Divide the GN by the f-stop to get the approximate flash subject
distance.

The GN on EX flashes are in their names, for example the 550EX has
a GN or 55 (in meters), the 420EX has a GN of 42 (in meters), and I
won't continue with the 220EX because you get my drift.

Jim
--
exposure36 Photography
landscape/creative vision/education

http://www.exposure36.com

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