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I'm not a pro...

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Matt Rupert

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But I play one for my friends and neighbors...

Sorry pros, but this has to be so frustrating for you. People know I am "into" photography, and I'm often asked to do portraits and stuff for cards and birthdays and special occassions. I have a friend who is a landscaper who has asked me on numerous occassions to do sample shots for his landscaping business (lighting, patios, etc).

There's always one thing in common: Everyone is looking for really great pics, but they don't want to pay. They figure if they know someboyd (or heck, if they are even a friend of a friend) that I'll be happy to take 3-5 hours out of my weekend to take photos for them for cheap (or nothing).

Yesterday a neighbor from down the road (don't even know the person) said, "Hey, I heard you do photos on the side... Would you do my daughters first communion?"

Sure... Happy to! Fifty bucks.

Fifty bucks... That's cheap. That's really cheap.

Her face said it all: "What? I was thinking more like $10."

It all gives me more respect for the BS that actual pros have to deal with. So I guess going forward, since word of mouth means many people come to me asking for pictures, I'll just say the price out front, and they can take it or leave it.

Wondering how other people like me (not pro, but paid sometimes) deal with this silliness. Thanks...
 
Matt Rupert said:
But I play one for my friends and neighbors...

Sorry pros, but this has to be so frustrating for you. People know
I am "into" photography, and I'm often asked to do portraits and
stuff for cards and birthdays and special occassions. I have a
friend who is a landscaper who has asked me on numerous occassions
to do sample shots for his landscaping business (lighting, patios,
etc).

There's always one thing in common: Everyone is looking for really
great pics, but they don't want to pay. They figure if they know
someboyd (or heck, if they are even a friend of a friend) that I'll
be happy to take 3-5 hours out of my weekend to take photos for
them for cheap (or nothing).

Yesterday a neighbor from down the road (don't even know the
person) said, "Hey, I heard you do photos on the side... Would you
do my daughters first communion?"

Sure... Happy to! Fifty bucks.

Fifty bucks... That's cheap. That's really cheap.

Her face said it all: "What? I was thinking more like $10."

It all gives me more respect for the BS that actual pros have to
deal with. So I guess going forward, since word of mouth means many
people come to me asking for pictures, I'll just say the price out
front, and they can take it or leave it.

Wondering how other people like me (not pro, but paid sometimes)
deal with this silliness. Thanks...
Click to expand...
My solution: my wife too a batch of my photos, flowers and vehicles, and some shots of a neighbor, to church to show the oldest kid one day. In the process of showing them--8-1/2x11--some of the other church members got a look, and several commented that I "should be a pro."

I've lived here for nearly 20 years, and people in my neighborhood do not have a need to know what I do for a living. I'm a freelance writer and photographer, but I always de-emphasize the photography, because in past lives it was too much of a PITA. I can easily understand how lawyers and doctors get fed up with being asked for free advice. Free photography, or low priced photography, is on a par for us.
--
Charlie Self
http://www.charlieselfonline.com
 
Since you're asking for input from non-pros (like me, trespassing in the pro forum) I'll provide my 2 cents worth (for free!!!). I would never formally charge a friend or neighbour for photographic services. If they choose to pay me, then so be it, and most weddings I've photographed over the last few years have paid me about $500 (without being asked). If it's something like a communion for the child of a close friend, I would not expect any compensation, but the images would represent a significant portion of my gift.

If you don't know the people well, then just say you can't do it. I've had to do that on a number of occasions since I won't photograph (or DJ) weddings for people I don't know extremely well. I frequently get requests from people I don't know who have attended weddings that I've photographed (or DJ'ed). I always tell them that I am unavailable. I realize it's hard to tell a neighbour that....good luck.
--
Duncan Bristow
http://www.pbase.com/duncanbristow
 
I have a friend who is not a pro...but has all the equipment, and know how to be one. He is sick and tired of the time he is spending doing stuff for free. It has come to a point where he has been commenting that his time is worth far more than these people could afford to pay if he was to charge them what his time is worth in his business (he probably earns over $500 per hour in his "day job")

So....simple solution....as a non-pro, calculate what your time is worth to you .... "at work"....and ask for that amount from your freebee clients....and if they still want you to work for them go for it......

It's very simple really...it is your "free time"....and if you allow them to turn you into a worker then you should ask "your" going rate as a worker.

It has been mentioned that a photographer is an "outsider", an observer...not a participant in the events that one covers. Just as you would not want to be the primary photographer at your daughter's wedding...as you want to interact in the event....you shouldn't be asked to put aside your participation in events you attend to become a working photographer for free.
--
Richard Katris aka Chanan a working pro...
 
I never charge my friends or family, but then again I'm usually too busy to help them out....But the way I've done it in the past is an hour or two of my time for an hour or two of theirs...depending on what profession they are in of course!...I have had stuff designed - busness cards and brochures for example or accupuncture treaments the list goes on, and I won't bore you with it :-) But no money changes hands....Money isn't something that should come between friends

I won't be the sole photographer at a wedding (except once when it was a shotgun wedding for some friends who couldn't afford a professional wedding photographer) I will however, take my camera and give the B+G the photos as pressies (a lot cheaper and more personal than something from the wedding list :-), but only after they have chosen the album from their hired photographer tho...treat others as you'd like to be treated :-)

I do also do work for friends in a professional capacity, but then I get paid top wack for it, because it's not their money they are spending!!!

As for you neighbour of a neighbour, charge what you can....if they are only speking to you to get images, only speak to them to get money! :-D
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Always give the client a vertical-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
http://grahamsnook.wordpress.com/
 
Matt Rupert said:
Fifty bucks... That's cheap. That's really cheap.

Her face said it all: "What? I was thinking more like $10."
Click to expand...
Matt Rupert said:
Wondering how other people like me (not pro, but paid sometimes)
deal with this silliness. Thanks...
Click to expand...
This demonstrates to everyone who wishes to be pro and gain business by being cheaper that there is no limit to how little people will want to pay for work.

I second the other responses here that advise you to either be "busy" or charge a fee commensurate with what you are providing.

The fact is that pro or not, people will be very bold in asking for the unreasonable.
 
Whenever I do a "favor" for someone (aka, free work) I always politely ask them to never tell anyone else that I did it for nothing and I promptly remind them what the services rendered are actually worth. It keeps conversations with their friends on the topic of the quality of work, rather than the money that could be saved "because you did it for so-and-so for free, I think you should do the same for me, right?"

that's a bad spot to get yourself in.
 
another way to get around the onus of pro-bono work is to charge full pop...and then donate the fee back to the function/group etc.. This is the BEST way to handle anything you DO want to do for free..

the value of the work is retained, the net cost to the group is still zero, and the percieved value of your work is better appreciated.
--
Richard Katris aka Chanan
 
Yeah. Welcome to that world. I am a student, going to school for graphic design, so I pass out my buisness card to try to get some jobs. Just 2 weeks ago, I talked to a "professional photographer" and talked about doing his website. I show up at his place to show him my ideas, get him excited, then talk price. Im thinking 1500(for about 20-25 hours worth of work. a bit cheap, but again, I am still a student) so halfway through, just a few minutes before I was going to say "so I was thinking 1500" he turns to me and says "Now, I dont want you doing this for free. I can make you dinner or something."

DINNER! For 2500 dollars worth of work!? I was being generous at 1500!

Anyways. Yes. That is the way people are. No one wants to pay anything. Just start telling people you will work for 50+ an hour, and if they dont want to pay, then they will get shitty photos elsewhere

-spencer
http://www.dancespencerdance.com
 
Friends policy: If it's not a huge effort and not for commercial purposes (not for the friend's business), then I do it free, because I like to help my friends, do nice things for them, etc. and I reserve the right to use the images in my portfolio. If it's for their business, I calculate a "normal" job estimate and discount it by whatever percentage seems appropriate, and limit the usage rights to whatever they negotiate.

Acquaintances policy: If I know them but not really friendly with them, I calculate a "normal" job estimate and give a small discount (not as good a price as I would give a friend as above). But I treat it as a business transaction, so I specifically negotiate all usage rights.

Charities: To help out organizations/causes that I favor and that are qualified under IRS code 501(c)3, I will do the job for only expense reimbursement (e.g. film and processing, printing, etc.), and take a deduction from income at tax time, for my contribution of time/services. If it's any other not-for-profit, i.e. not 501(c)3 qualified or one that I would not otherwise support with a cash contribution, then I calculate a normal job estimate and negotiate usage rights and a small discount.
--
[email protected]
 
You do??? It was my understanding that you could deduct outright expenses involved in doing pro bono work, not only materials but costs of travel and such, but that you couldn't deduct the value of your time.
DavidMaven said:
Charities: To help out organizations/causes that I favor and that
are qualified under IRS code 501(c)3, I will do the job for only
expense reimbursement (e.g. film and processing, printing, etc.),
and take a deduction from income at tax time, for my contribution
of time/services. > --
[email protected]
Click to expand...
--
Ellen Z
 
I liked some of your images on your web site very much. I also downloaded your resume.

If you intend to market your services to general commercial enterprises, be aware that they tend to be a bit more conservative than the art school crowd. I'm not sure that listing your experience as a certified body piercer is something to attract a conservative client base to your design skills.

I know from experience that putting together a resume while still a student can be difficult, but some readers of the resume might be a bit squeamish about body piercing.

By the way, if you haven't already, go see the recent John Malkovich film "Art School Confidential". It's a great satire of art school, art students, and art teachers.

--
[email protected]
 
I've had a long day and forgot to quality my statements:

You are correct, somebody who does not have a (photography) business (e.g. amateur) can take deductions only for actual expenses involved in volunteer work for a charity, not for services provided.

If one has a legitimate business (primary or sideline), then donations for services-in-kind from that business (not the individual) may be deductible. This can be a gray area, especially when the business is not incorporated, so speak to your accountant.
NYellenzaslaw said:
DavidMaven said:
Charities: To help out organizations/causes that I favor and that
are qualified under IRS code 501(c)3, I will do the job for only
expense reimbursement (e.g. film and processing, printing, etc.),
and take a deduction from income at tax time, for my contribution
of time/services. > --
[email protected]
Click to expand...
--
Ellen Z
Click to expand...
--
[email protected]
 
Well we agree on consulting an accountant. So okay I'm not a pro photographer, I'm a pro something else. But in that field I can't--as I've been told by my accountants--write off services rendered pro bono, nor services rendered in expectation of payment for which the client failed to pay, even though those services normally have financial worth. I can only write off expenses actually incurred.

Perhaps we live in places where the law works differently, though if you're in the US, federal tax law ought to apply the same. Perhaps we have accountants who see things differently :-). OTOH maybe if you hand a pro bono client a photograph, a physical object, you can value that object at the price you'd have charged for it. As I could if I hand a client a possession of mine, but not if I perform intangible professional services.
DavidMaven said:
I've had a long day and forgot to quality my statements:

You are correct, somebody who does not have a (photography)
business (e.g. amateur) can take deductions only for actual
expenses involved in volunteer work for a charity, not for services
provided.

If one has a legitimate business (primary or sideline), then
donations for services-in-kind from that business (not the
individual) may be deductible. This can be a gray area, especially
when the business is not incorporated, so speak to your accountant.
Click to expand...
--Ellen Z
 
You are correct, I was mistaken. I've never yet taken that deduction (only for my actual expenses so far, because the contributions of time were only a few hours to cover events, so I didn't bother), so now I'm sure I wont. I appreciate your making be do the research below...
NYellenzaslaw said:
Well we agree on consulting an accountant. So okay I'm not a pro
photographer, I'm a pro something else. But in that field I
can't--as I've been told by my accountants--write off services
rendered pro bono, nor services rendered in expectation of payment
for which the client failed to pay, even though those services
normally have financial worth. I can only write off expenses
actually incurred.
Click to expand...
In checking an IRS publications, an individual cannot deduct the value of his time/services either on form 1040 itemized deductions or as expense on Schedule C. Contributions of property/cash and actual expenses incurred in volunteering are eligible with the usual caveats of qualified recipient organizations, etc.

BTW, a CPA once told me: "Hire an agressive CPA, or none at all.

If your CPA is conservative and not suggesting deductions that you wouldn't take when doing your taxes, then you don't need a CPA in first place; do your own taxes or hire a cheap tax form preparer."
 
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