Just when you thought Circuit City couldn't get any worse...

Isaac Crawford said:

J A K said:

AlanG said:

So if you take the view that there should be a more equitable
distribution of wealth in this society then you can start by
supporting stores that do compenaste their staff better. Even if
it costs you a little more.

Click to expand...

Alan, I don't see that happening - people always search for a
bargain (and they can't be blamed for taking that action). The
REAL distribution of wealth is moving out of the USA and will
continue to do so until the well runs dry; this is what happens
when manufacturing dribbles to a halt.

Regards,

Joe Kurkjian, Pbase Supporter

Click to expand...

This has to be the funniest thing I have read all day. Do you have
any idea how much manufacturing output in the US has increased in
the last 20 years? Our manufacturing output is up over 50% since
1987.

Click to expand...

What is being manufactured? High tech chips and goods employing very few people. Manufacturing JOBS continue to decline. They have been deeclining and the rate is accelerating.

Isaac Crawford said:

Did you know that in 1900 over 40% of the US population was
in Agriculture? Now it's less than 3% despite producing far more
food than we did in 1900, who is really sorry that they're not
working on a farm? The point is that more stuff can be made with
fewer people, and that's great!

Click to expand...

What stuff? And what do your statistics have to do with anything that affects real people and not the high saleried CEO's? Manufacturing employees about 17 million people. The numbers were FAR higher years ago - and the delcline continues.

Isaac Crawford said:

The biggest threat to manufacturing
jobs is automation much more than foreign workers. China is the
world's leader in manufacturing jobs lost (due to automation)
despite the fact that their output continues to grow. Efficiency is
a good thing, it is what makes economic progress possible. Would
you rather that we still had 40% of the population on the farm?

Click to expand...

It's a phony choice. Our Middle Class was the product of high paying industrial jobs. These jobs are disappearing. CEO's are of course experieinceing an unprecedented rise in their standard of living - But the standard of living of the rest of us is in deline.

Industries like Auto and Steel used to employ millions. And the same for other industries.

Having a relative handful of high priced jobs in niche industries, no matter how profitable for corporations, are NOT filtering down to us.

Isaac Crawford said:

See:
http://cafehayek.typepad.com/hayek/2006/02/we_dont_make_an.html

and make sure to read the comments as well...

Click to expand...

"There are lies, damned lies and statistics."

Mark Twain.

"NT" means no text.

Joe Kurkjian, Pbase Supporter

http://www.pbase.com/jkurkjia/original



SEARCHING FOR A BETTER SELF PORTRAIT

ZoetMB said:

But to say that NAFTA or WTO has any impact on retail employees in
the U.S. is a big joke. Retail jobs don't move overseas.

Click to expand...

Not yet, but soon.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/11/technology/11fast.html?ex=1302408000&en=fba08e17788e24c9&ei=5090

It gets more interesting on page 2:

The operator of one of the McDonald's centers is developing a related system that would allow big stores like Home Depot to equip carts with speakers that customers could use to contact a call center wirelessly for shopping advice. [...] With a wireless system in a Home Depot, for example, a call-center operator might tell a customer, "You're at Aisle D6. Let me walk you over to where you can find the 16-penny nails,"

So your floor help doesn't actually have to be on the floor, they can be in a call center. The call center can be anywhere.

--
Seen in a fortune cookie:
Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed

ZoetMB said:

If you want to say that these bills had a role in manufacturing
leaving the U.S., I might partially agree (although NOTHING was
going to stop manufacturing jobs from leaving the U.S.)

But to say that NAFTA or WTO has any impact on retail employees in
the U.S. is a big joke. Retail jobs don't move overseas.

Click to expand...

There is a growing consensus amongst the wealthy that we make too much money. That to be competitive in the global economy, working people and the Middle Class (and these words for quite a while were synonomous) have to bite the bullit and get used to lving in a Second or BETTER, Third world economy.

As a result of this outlook, high paying industrial jobs are disappearing, which leaves quite a few people competing for fewer and fewer jobs.

Would you and I work for less? You betcha - It beats the hell out of starving.

So, there is a spin-off effect of NAFTA and the WTO that you are not adding up. More people looking for work, means lower saleries.

ZoetMB said:

And corporate mismanagement is not impacted by NAFTA or WTO either.
Circuit City and CompUSA are just the latest in a series of
electronic chains over many decades who have expanded too quickly,
provided lousy service and prices and have the same merchandise as
everyone else in a bland and uninspiring environment.

Click to expand...

Corporate mismanagement is ultimately looking at the bottom line. Any measure that increases that bottom line is ok with them. If there are "unfortunate" repercusions, it wont be them paying the price. So they can afford to experiment...

This November I had a Service call at a FANCY hotel in Midtown. Rare, because the super is a skilled worker, and maintains the heating system in a proper manner. I had a long talk with him, because as the mechanic, it pays to be on good terms....

Starting in January, they had calls every week.

The $20 an hour super had been replaced as a cost cutting measure, and a nice enough guy, desperate for a job was hired at $12 an hour.

The guests at this hotel pay a $1,000 a night. They were leaving in droves.

Who pays if that hotel loses buisness?

NB.

We are indeed living in a race to the bottom. And yes indeed I blame NAFTA and the WTO - But more importantly I blame BOTH the Democrats and Republicans who listened to the pleas of the wealthy and are umpiring this race, and cheering on these cost cutting measures.

A wise policy could have and STILL could save us from becoming a simple resevoir for International Corporations needing cheap labor and goods

"Corporate CEO's of the World Unite, we having nothing to lose but our high priced labor," is not my idea of being an American (or Frenchmen, or Mexican).

Dave

ZoetMB said:

Cutting higher-paid employees has nothing to do with NAFTA or WTO.
It's just the quickest and easiest way to cut costs. In the minds
of these brilliant executives, knowlegeable employees (and not that
I ever actually found any at Circuit City) provide no value add and
don't positively impact stock price. Therefore, they're expendible.

The first thing they teach you in Sales is about product
differentiation. The problem with these types of retailers today
is that they need to differentiate themselves from the interent.
Typically, that meant being able to physically see and feel the
product and to obtain info from knowledgeable salespeople. If you
fire all the salespeople with knowledge, you've just killed one of
the major differentiation points. Prices aren't great so there's
really no reason to go to a Circuit City store and buy anything.

If you want to see a retailer that gets the formula right, go to
one of the larger Apple stores.

But let's blame Bill Clinton. Because in spite of the fact that we
have the most ignorant, arrogant and incompetent administration in
history, it's all Bill Clinton's fault.

Click to expand...

The corporate world is terrible as if cc didn't have enough problems already?

Why do Neo-cons (cons, as in convicts would be more accurate-see Bob 'I'm a lush' Ney, Jack 'got my hand in your pocket' Abrmoff, etc...) blame Clinton for every societal ill?
--
shinndigg
http://www.pbase.com/shinndigg

...here I agree with you whole-heartedly. I already avoid BestBuy like the plague, and now CircuitCity has lost a faithful customer. Permanently. I might actually start shopping at Sears again. They generelly carry a variety of items.
--
shinndigg
http://www.pbase.com/shinndigg

shinndigg said:

Why do Neo-cons (cons, as in convicts would be more accurate-see
Bob 'I'm a lush' Ney, Jack 'got my hand in your pocket' Abrmoff,
etc...) blame Clinton for every societal ill?
--
shinndigg
http://www.pbase.com/shinndigg

Click to expand...

And making belive that Clinton was not instermental in pushing NAFTA, the WTO, etc, is not exactly dealing with reality.

I look at the present presidential race, and I'm not about to vote for ANY candidate who doesn't want to get us out of this Corporate trap.

And oddly enough, I don't hear too much debate from these candidates on this question, while a glance at this board - From political Right, to political Left, shows an unprecedented agreement - that few of us are happy with these so called trade agreements.

Dave

shinndigg said:

Why do Neo-cons (cons, as in convicts would be more accurate-see
Bob 'I'm a lush' Ney, Jack 'got my hand in your pocket' Abrmoff,
etc...) blame Clinton for every societal ill?

Click to expand...

Probably the result of having basically a two party system. The "neo-cons" want to blame Clinton for all sorts of things and the "flaming liberals" want to blame Bush for all sorts of things. Just a part of the game that politicians have played for about as long as we have had the two party system.
--
Shoot lots of pictures, always fill the frame

No text.

I must be in the wrong forum!

Chato said:

Corporate mismanagement is ultimately looking at the bottom line.
Any measure that increases that bottom line is ok with them. If
there are "unfortunate" repercusions, it wont be them paying the
price. So they can afford to experiment...

This November I had a Service call at a FANCY hotel in Midtown.
Rare, because the super is a skilled worker, and maintains the
heating system in a proper manner. I had a long talk with him,
because as the mechanic, it pays to be on good terms....

Starting in January, they had calls every week.

The $20 an hour super had been replaced as a cost cutting measure,
and a nice enough guy, desperate for a job was hired at $12 an hour.

The guests at this hotel pay a $1,000 a night. They were leaving in
droves.

Who pays if that hotel loses buisness?

NB.

Click to expand...

Same exact problem as with politics. The people in charge aren't actually accountable for the consequences of their actions. Corporate execs get a short term boost by boosting the bottom line, and can then bail out with their golden parachutes. Politicians can make whatever decisions they want so long as the impact doesn't come until AFTER they've left office. (Not recommending terms be extended. I'm not sure what the solution is to that one.)

It's pretty bad out there....

Have any of you armchair socialists ever worked in a factory?

Have you experienced the noise and mind numbing boredom of most factory jobs?

If this is what you prefer then more power to you. I much prefer the unprecedented prosperity and low unemployment we enjoy today.

Richard

I agree, clinton and the republican congress pushed it through.

And unemployment went way up and real wages dropped like a rock like ross perot said......

Well it makes a good story, but unemployment went down and real wages increased in that period of time. I'm not saying it was nafta, that increased employment, but I don't see any evidence that it caused a recession or lower wages. We are in a global economy after all.

And Nafta let some mexican or canadian chain store out compete circuit city? Take a reality check. Its competition from the internet and other AMERICAN chains. As these big box stores are national and not interested in their employees should it suprise you that they fired a group to decrease costs. They are not hiring mexican citizens. Who is responsable for the low wages. Its the people shopping at these places instead of local businesses. At least watch some southpark or utube to get a pulse on the problem. Clinton, Bush, etc had nothing to do with this. Its the consumers and congress.

Chato said:

shinndigg said:

Why do Neo-cons (cons, as in convicts would be more accurate-see
Bob 'I'm a lush' Ney, Jack 'got my hand in your pocket' Abrmoff,
etc...) blame Clinton for every societal ill?
--
shinndigg
http://www.pbase.com/shinndigg

Click to expand...

And making belive that Clinton was not instermental in pushing
NAFTA, the WTO, etc, is not exactly dealing with reality.

I look at the present presidential race, and I'm not about to vote
for ANY candidate who doesn't want to get us out of this Corporate
trap.

And oddly enough, I don't hear too much debate from these
candidates on this question, while a glance at this board - From
political Right, to political Left, shows an unprecedented
agreement - that few of us are happy with these so called trade
agreements.

Dave

Click to expand...

You make many valid points, as does Ryan and f2zoom. Sad as it is, most don't send an end to the serving of special interest groups. There 'needs' are place far ahead of the true needs of the public.

shinndigg
http://www.pbase.com/shinndigg

asiseeit said:

Have any of you armchair socialists ever worked in a factory?

Have you experienced the noise and mind numbing boredom of most
factory jobs?

If this is what you prefer then more power to you. I much prefer
the unprecedented prosperity and low unemployment we enjoy today.

Click to expand...

You don't have to look hard to find people struggling. I have friends who have given up on the "American dream" of ever owning a home or having a family because the fields they went to college for are flooded with foreign slave workers. It's depressing to watch. But they count as "employed" by working in fast food or as a waiter part time.

Hope it happens to you soon and you lose everything. When you are forced to sell your home and worry about keeping your kids fed like my one friend, then you can come on this board and comment.

I am by no means a socialist, but I am tired of the back stabbing by America's corporate elite and the undermining of America by her own Congress. The fat, rich, and LAZY CEO of Short Circuit City could have saved some jobs by having management, himself included, take pay cuts. He alone could have saved a few hundred jobs and still been a millionaire. That kind of leadership might have kicked the sales associates in the rear to work harder, learn more, and be more helpful. Now nobody who works for CC should care what happens, it's officially a "temp job".

Screw him. Nothing could make me happier than to watch someone like him lose his millions in a swindle or something and go down in flames.

austinphotog said:

I agree, clinton and the republican congress pushed it through.

And unemployment went way up and real wages dropped like a rock
like ross perot said......

Click to expand...

Corporate profits are at an all time high, real wages have dropped, the standard of living has fallen...

Emploment? Well both political parties have been changing the standards for years. If you work one day a month you are "employed." Used to be one day a week, and before that, you actually had to have a regular job to be counted as employed.

Recently a large company offered a few hundred positions at $11 an hour. They had ten thousand applicants. Used to be that the New York Times had a job hunting section of 50 pages, it's now down to a few...

austinphotog said:

Well it makes a good story, but unemployment went down and real
wages increased in that period of time. I'm not saying it was
nafta, that increased employment, but I don't see any evidence that
it caused a recession or lower wages. We are in a global economy
after all.

Click to expand...

I don't see this great boom that you are postulating. I see that good paying industrial jobs have shrunk to 17 million out of a work force of over a hundred million.

austinphotog said:

And Nafta let some mexican or canadian chain store out compete
circuit city? Take a reality check. Its competition from the
internet and other AMERICAN chains. As these big box stores are
national and not interested in their employees should it suprise
you that they fired a group to decrease costs. They are not hiring
mexican citizens. Who is responsable for the low wages. Its the
people shopping at these places instead of local businesses. At
least watch some southpark or utube to get a pulse on the problem.
Clinton, Bush, etc had nothing to do with this. Its the consumers
and congress.

Click to expand...

It's Congress AND the Presidents (over the last fifty years) that turned the living wage that was the minimum wage into a joke, where even the skin flints pay more than minimum...

Chato

austinphotog said:

Chato said:

shinndigg said:

Why do Neo-cons (cons, as in convicts would be more accurate-see
Bob 'I'm a lush' Ney, Jack 'got my hand in your pocket' Abrmoff,
etc...) blame Clinton for every societal ill?
--
shinndigg
http://www.pbase.com/shinndigg

Click to expand...

And making belive that Clinton was not instermental in pushing
NAFTA, the WTO, etc, is not exactly dealing with reality.

I look at the present presidential race, and I'm not about to vote
for ANY candidate who doesn't want to get us out of this Corporate
trap.

And oddly enough, I don't hear too much debate from these
candidates on this question, while a glance at this board - From
political Right, to political Left, shows an unprecedented
agreement - that few of us are happy with these so called trade
agreements.

Dave

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

asiseeit said:

Have any of you armchair socialists ever worked in a factory?

Have you experienced the noise and mind numbing boredom of most
factory jobs?

If this is what you prefer then more power to you. I much prefer
the unprecedented prosperity and low unemployment we enjoy today.

Richard

Click to expand...

Before I became a Heating installer, I worked in factories.

And I much prefer my present job.

On the other hand, if it was a choice between working for Walmart at $9 and hour and that factory job at $20 - What would you recomend?

Dave

I am a blue collar worker, self employed since 1957.

I live in CT. a state once chock full of factories. Almost all gone.

I have yet to meet anyone who bemoans the loss of the great brass or hat factories with all their health problems. Mad as a hatter really happened.

Yet Ct. today is among the most prosperous states and Fairfield county is probably the wealthiest county in the country.

Your college educated friends surely are smart enough to learn something other than fast food. Labor after all is subject to supply and demand like everything else. Check out what an electrician, plumber, carpenter or even what a good car mechanic can make. Anything other than shuffling paper.

The man who fixes my car has a nice boat, a stock portfolio, nice home, and 4 or 5 classic cars restored by himself. He works with one helper.

Contrary to your opinion of business executives the ones I have met(and I have met many) have for the most part been very talented people and it is obvious why they hold their positions. You hear about the few crooks . I sure prefer them to politicians running our corporations as they would under a socialist dreamworld.

Be careful about wishing for the return of factories, you just might get it.

Best Wishes

Richard

There are more choices than Walmart, a lot more.

Coincidently I held a NYC heating installers license in the 1950s and I can make a lot cleaner fire than you.

Richard